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RE: Emotional sadism - 8/21/2010 7:21:21 AM

NuevaVida

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

He liked to seriously emotionally hurt me. Over time, it did more harm than good.

This is a deal breaker for me. Partners should build each other up, not cause lasting emotional damage.

It's a deal-breaker for me now, too. I will never allow myself to reside in those dark places again. I had no idea the internal trauma that was occurring at the time, but then I'm not sure I really cared back then.

Mr. Man tells me he won't take me there - he said my days of being beaten down are over, that building each other up is critically important.

Like Aileen said, I would also spiral, and fast, were he to purposefully inflict emotional pain.

It has been years since my experiences with that kind of hurt. I am still recovering.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to sirsholly)

Post #: 21

RE: Emotional sadism - 8/21/2010 8:26:00 AM

SlyStone

Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
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I personally believe that all sadists are "emotional" sadists.

The act of deriving pleasure from causing another pain IS in fact an emotional experience, and people are
far to complicated to believe that a sadist is able to compartmentalize between pleasure gained from physical OR emotional pain.
The two blend togeather, and I think the submissive involved with a true sadist would be fooling his or her self to believe otherwise.

_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin

(in reply to Twoshoes)

Post #: 22

RE: Emotional sadism - 8/21/2010 9:36:04 AM

lally2

Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

I personally believe that all sadists are "emotional" sadists.

The act of deriving pleasure from causing another pain IS in fact an emotional experience, and people are
far to complicated to believe that a sadist is able to compartmentalize between pleasure gained from physical OR emotional pain.
The two blend togeather, and I think the submissive involved with a true sadist would be fooling his or her self to believe otherwise.

i think thats far too much of a generalising sweep to say with so much conviction.

i can think of at least one sub on here who loves to be emotionally and psychologically crushed, im sure there are others. im not one of them either. i can take a beating, i can be bound and gagged, teased and up to a point tortured, but if you feck with my head and try to pull me down emotionally or psychologically im sooo gone for good and forever.

i can take criticism if its constructive and im happy to be put in my place with harsh words if its necessary but to be told im a worthless lump of meat, pointless and stupid im gone.

from my perspective ONLY - ive come across this once in my life and the guy did it because he was so inadequate as a person his only way of holding onto me, he thought, was to make me believe i should be grateful for what little he gave me and his way of doing that was to run me down and make me feel worthless and actually it worked, for a while, i did think i was worthless.

since then i have this opinion of such people and its my opinion and not necessarilly true of all people who enjoy this sort of thing, but i know the difference and the others on here know the difference between physical sadism and emotional sadism. the two dont invariably go together.

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to SlyStone)

Post #: 23

RE: Emotional sadism - 8/21/2010 9:40:06 AM

sexyred1

Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twoshoes

What exactly does this term mean? Does it have negative or positive connotations?

My guesses:

- Is it promoting frustration as part of play?

- Is it making someone emotionally unhappy (in terms of their life)? (We definately don't want any of that.)

Emotional sadism and humiliation are not one and the same.

Humiliation is more scene......emotional sadism is integral to the relationship and by extension is an ever present.

It's self-explanatory...it's keeping your partner in a constant state of emotional upheaval......and yes...if you're the type that likes stability and peace of mind....then it's not for you. It plays on the anxiety and fear of your partner. Not for the faint hearted and it takes a certain type of character to want to impose that upon you.

I'd say it's far more sadistic than anything physical...and it can really fuck you up.....although it ain't the bastion of the fucked up at all....a determined character can fuck with the mind of most people.....in the event you allow that to happen.

What he said. Humiliation in a scene is hot; causing uncertainty, frustration and feeling unbalanced in the relationship itself is not hot. If you feel your partner does not care for you, there is nothing left.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 24

RE: Emotional sadism - 8/21/2010 9:44:38 AM

MistressArletta

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Joined: 8/16/2010
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quote:

Humiliation in a scene is hot; causing uncertainty, frustration and feeling unbalanced in the relationship itself is not hot. If you feel your partner does not care for you, there is nothing left.

Amen to that!

Keep trying to explain that to slave wanna-be's, who keep trying to tell me they want a cruel, harsh, unrelenting Mistress. I mean, if a Mistress is like that 24/7 she's not even in control of herself and she's certainly not interested in owning them as propety. She's just a bitch out to destroy someone else!

(in reply to sexyred1)

Post #: 25

RE: Emotional sadism - 8/21/2010 9:53:04 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

I personally believe that all sadists are "emotional" sadists.

The act of deriving pleasure from causing another pain IS in fact an emotional experience, and people are
far to complicated to believe that a sadist is able to compartmentalize between pleasure gained from physical OR emotional pain.
The two blend togeather, and I think the submissive involved with a true sadist would be fooling his or her self to believe otherwise.

I can see your point in the sense that pain is pain.

I would point out one difference though......

A sadist can empathise with both emotional and physical pain...........it's that ability to empathise that binds you together whichever side of the coin you're on.......I'd argue that anyone who can't empathise with someone else's pain is something other than a sadist in BDSM terms........but it's far easier to manage physical pain....or perhaps that's just me and the way my mind works....I see fucking with someone's mind as dangerous territory (to an extent...fair enough) because as much as some of us would like to think we're amateur psychologists who can control the situation.....god only knows where that will lead to.....I wouldn't fancy that at all...I wouldn't want to take the risk and have the outcome on my conscience.

But to add......there is a lot of emotional sadism that goes on in every day life......it's called bullying...which you will see at work....or in the supermarket......it ain't as unusual as may be imagined.....and perhaps a sadist in BDSM terms is anything but a bully.....the sort of bloke who wouldn't dream of intimidating someone in the street....but enjoys physical sadism with a consenting partner.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to SlyStone)

Post #: 26

RE: Emotional sadism - 8/21/2010 10:15:45 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
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I'm going to go somewhat against the tide here. I tend to see emotional sadism as any form of play that does involve the emotional, which may or may not also include the physical. In My view, that can include humiliation, activities such as cuckholding, and can even extend to some types of resistance play, if you think about it that way. (If the bottom during a scene is pleading with the top to stop an activity without calling a safe word, and the top is enjoying hearing those pleas, that's also emotional sadism.)

It doesn't necessarily mean that the whole dynamic/relationship is founded on tearing the submissive down. There are some folks who enjoy various forms of emotional sadism where it is not a constant between the two people. This is where boundaries come in for Me. There's something of a line that I draw between "play" and "life". During a scene, there can be that dip into a person's emotional state. That doesn't mean that it carries over into the general way that I feel about the other party. The key to this is having your play time, reassuring the person that it is only play during the aftercare, and reinforcing this in normal daily interactions.

It's the lack of the building back up process and reassurance of the other person's worth where this gets bad for Me. I'm also not good with it being a constant. It's also where it gets two different results for Me. If someone doesn't feel that they have much self worth because it is the way they constantly feel, it actually distracts from the result that I want during play time if that is what I want to achieve. Also, as some folks have mentioned, it can be damaging, which in My opinion, isn't what play is supposed to be about.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to MistressArletta)

Post #: 27

RE: Emotional sadism - 8/21/2010 8:52:59 PM

Selinda

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Joined: 7/27/2010
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I don't see emotional sadism as at all redundant. I'm in complete agreement with lally. I can enjoy all manner of physical masochism, but attempt to mess with my head and I'm gone. I don't get involved in humiliation play - it's an instant turn off for me. The sadists I play with (more than once, at least) appreciate the fact that I enjoy and get off on physical pain but not emotional. I was married to an emotional sadist and it took me years to recover - most bruises go away within a week or three.

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 28

RE: Emotional sadism - 8/22/2010 8:09:09 AM

SlyStone

Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
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i know the difference and the others on here know the difference between physical sadism and emotional sadism. the two dont invariably go together.

Maybe we are just mixing labels, it is almost impossible not to here:), but there is a vast difference in my mind between someone who exhibits sadistic behavior, something many dominants are capable of, in fact something many humans are capable of, as opposed to a sadist who gains sexual pleasure through causing pain, degradation and humiliation, which is my personal definition of a sadist. (There is always the assumption of empathy here, otherwise we are talking about a psychotic, and while there are plenty of them out there I think we at least have to be careful that when we use the label here that we are not talking about that.)

AND these acts are simply not just physical acts, a great part of it is emotional, from both sides of the spectrum, and I believe that it would be virtually impossible for the sadist to seperate the two.

Perhaps it comes down to motivation, most things do don't they?, but it is a difficult and long task to try to assign motivation to another, it is one of the reasons relationships end, when we learn why people act as they do and we don't like the reasons. And perhaps in the end it comes down to how you feel afterwards, broken down or regenerated, but I think this is more about you then it is about the sadist, it is how YOU process the event, not the sadist. And what breaks you down may bring peace to another, we all have our own needs.

_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin

(in reply to lally2)

Post #: 29

RE: Emotional sadism - 8/22/2010 8:10:53 AM

SlyStone

Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline

quote:

I can see your point in the sense that pain is pain.

I would take it a step further; a sadist is a sadist, unless he is something else.

_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 30

RE: Emotional sadism - 8/22/2010 10:57:10 AM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

It's the lack of the building back up process and reassurance of the other person's worth where this gets bad for Me.

This is what ultimately messed me up, and what I still have to revisit within me from time to time. Fortunately I am with someone now who won't "go there" in terms of intentionally flattening me, and who treads carefully when it comes to impacting my mind. In the past it was up to me to build myself back up, and over time it wore on me.

For me, physical pain absolutely influences my mental/emotional make up, but in a good way. So if he hurts me physically (sadistically?) it does not also hurt me emotionally - it puts me in a peaceful place, where I can feel his power and feel a confirmation (and re-confirmation) in my place with him. I need to know he can and will hurt me (physically) and that at the end of the day, I'm in his arms, loved by him.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 31

RE: Emotional sadism - 8/23/2010 6:47:46 AM

porcelaine

Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

It's self-explanatory...it's keeping your partner in a constant state of emotional upheaval......and yes...if you're the type that likes stability and peace of mind....then it's not for you. It plays on the anxiety and fear of your partner. Not for the faint hearted and it takes a certain type of character to want to impose that upon you.

I'd say it's far more sadistic than anything physical...and it can really fuck you up.....although it ain't the bastion of the fucked up at all....a determined character can fuck with the mind of most people.....in the event you allow that to happen.

I don't believe it has to be a constant and the implementation process is varied. Messing with someone's head needn't result in a traumatic outcome at every juncture. The point behind emotional sadism is generating the response the sadist desires. The ability to poke and prod at whim to create this is his shtick. And there's a big difference between something done in a scene and emotional sadism as an undercurrent in the relationship. The latter often unfolds differently and may have a Pavlovian flavor. He's forming mental manacles that provide an outlet for the sufferance he creates. Because the latter comes in many guises the results can be physical, emotional, and sexual. While the root may be emotionally derived its manifestation can include all three components.

~porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 32

RE: Emotional sadism - 8/23/2010 10:43:10 PM

Twoshoes

Posts: 1218
Joined: 7/27/2010
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Thanks for the input.

I guessed correctly that it means different things to different people. (Which makes it worthless for labelling myself.)

Also, great examples of what type of behaviour would cause serious emotional harm in relationships. (Sorry, to hear about those of you who had this occur).

Incase you were wondering, I was trying to figure out how to describe various behaviours during 'play only' with less words.

Such as:
- asking someone to be still (frustration)
- asking someone to stay outside while it's raining. (who needs a hose

? - frustration)
- self-complimenting/self-worship (It's really hard for some people! - most entertaining)
- menial tasks (frustration)
- the more common begging(frustration), uncertainty or humilation

I've actually seen more extreme examples such as being naked outside in the winter, sensory deprivation, but I like to pick simple things I wouldn't mind doing myself, but people really dislike not having control of.

I do realize that promoting frustration/humiliation/anger does need to be consented to with someone I've known well and for a long time. It requires complete trust (both ways) and knowing the person very well, otherwise it's impossible to be able to identify their genuine emotional reactions or know they aren't being hurt.

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
Messing with someone's head needn't result in a traumatic outcome at every juncture.
The point behind emotional sadism is generating the response the sadist desires. The ability to poke and prod at whim to create this is his shtick.

Exactly, thank you, porcelaine. Causing these responses (negative, aswell as positive) at a whim is indeed the motivation for me. The other point of this exercise is to get the submissive to end up with the peaceful realization that they don't need to worry about things such as 'how long' or 'why' and only focus on their submission. Exposing them to their own anger or frustration, might be a step in that process.

The end goal is always positive emotions; it's more reassuring for someone who lets you toy with their emotions to know that you only leave them with positive ones!

I'm actually fine without this type of sadism, since I know I enjoy 'control' on its own with no sadism, as well as a variety of other roleplay behaviours. What I'm willing to engage in depends on the partner I have.

I wanted to distinguish from the pain-driven type of sadism (which I don't enjoy as much) for purposes of explaining. (To try this fully, I need to be able to explain it first.)

Can I call any "building up", positive reinforcement and reassurance "emotional aftercare"? In the above cases:
- humilation => reassurance that I value them as a person
- rain outside => warm shower
- self complimenting => reinforcing by agreeing with them

More importantly (and slightly directed towards LadyPact), how would I know if the "building up" is enough? Since some subs tend to try to please with their answers and not seem "needy", I'm abit afraid I will never know for sure. I think this type of 'play' can be really dangerous.

(I'm not completely sure this behaviour is acceptable, I just know others knowingly engage in it. Infact, I scared myself abit writing this.

)

< Message edited by Twoshoes -- 8/23/2010 10:57:40 PM >

(in reply to porcelaine)

Post #: 33

RE: Emotional sadism - 8/23/2010 11:12:15 PM

DemonKia

Posts: 5521
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Chico, Nor-Cali
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FR

Huh. I'm almost kinda afraid to reveal this, now, weirdly enough, but I consider myself to be a sadist (technically a sadomasochist, but that's less applicable at the moment). Including being an 'emotional sadist'. & I'm not into humiliation & degradation. & I'm not in the slightest interested in tearing someone down or any of that.

I do love me some good schadenfreude, which I cannot see as anything but emotional sadism.

& I love to make people do stuff that's good for them but that is a struggle or conflict for them to do. For example, I love to make people ask explicitly for what they want. Lots of people have huge issues about asking straightforwardly for what they want, & I love the struggle, the capitulation, the violating all those rules that say they can't ask for what they want. It's very much about emotional sadism for me, kinda like being a tough drill sargeant to the mind. Similarly, I love to make people talk good about themselves, same kinda thing.

Nothing deep, I've no interest in playing at psychotherapist or any of that, just that light kinda mind-fucky thing. Oh. &, yeah, I was asking people's permission to do this kind of thing long before I wandered into the out-&-organized kink world . . . ..

_____________________________

Snarko ergo sum.

The Verbossinator

(in reply to Twoshoes)

Post #: 34

RE: Emotional sadism - 8/24/2010 8:05:47 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twoshoes
I wanted to distinguish from the pain-driven type of sadism (which I don't enjoy as much) for purposes of explaining. (To try this fully, I need to be able to explain it first.)

Can I call any "building up", positive reinforcement and reassurance "emotional aftercare"? In the above cases:
- humilation => reassurance that I value them as a person
- rain outside => warm shower
- self complimenting => reinforcing by agreeing with them

More importantly (and slightly directed towards LadyPact), how would I know if the "building up" is enough? Since some subs tend to try to please with their answers and not seem "needy", I'm abit afraid I will never know for sure. I think this type of 'play' can be really dangerous.

(I'm not completely sure this behaviour is acceptable, I just know others knowingly engage in it. Infact, I scared myself abit writing this. )

You are absolutely right. This kind of play can be dangerous if you aren't dealing with a person who has good general self-esteem and you don't reinforce the positives properly. Take a look at some of the answers right here in this very thread. Some of these situations, where people have been harmed by emotional sadism, I wouldn't go near that kind of play with a ten foot pole with them. I mean that in no way to be offensive to those who answered the question honestly about their prior experiences. I mean that it just obviously would be a bad idea in cases like that because of not working for them and it more likely to be damaging.

The old adage about physical being different than the emotional applies here. If I beat My boy with a cane, I know exactly how long it takes for his body to heal. With emotional play, you can't see with your eyes. You have to look with everything else. You have to ask the probing questions and you can't settle for the fluff answers. Personally, I do a lot of what some people might think boarders on overcompensating. If I play with humiliation, the aftercare post scene is going to be focused on verbal reinforcement of the person's worth to Me. I'll continue to do so over the following weeks long after the play is over.

I think one of the keys to knowing what kind of play is too much is if it crosses over into every day life. Fear is a really good example of this. In our case, clip isn't afraid of Me in our day to day interactions, but I can promise you that he's felt fear during some of our play. If I saw that spilling over into times that it wasn't intentional, it's time to pull back on that area, even if it is in the dungeon.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to Twoshoes)

Post #: 35

RE: Emotional sadism - 8/24/2010 5:24:41 PM

whitedragonX

Posts: 75
Joined: 8/10/2010
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Me no likely emotional sadism. I have low self esteem anyways

quote:

Emotional Sadism to me is the act of hurting someone emotionally so that the hurt actually takes root and creates a broken person. It is harm.

QFT

(in reply to Twoshoes)

Post #: 36

RE: Emotional sadism - 8/24/2010 6:17:24 PM

porcelaine

Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twoshoes

More importantly (and slightly directed towards LadyPact), how would I know if the "building up" is enough? Since some subs tend to try to please with their answers and not seem "needy", I'm abit afraid I will never know for sure. I think this type of 'play' can be really dangerous.

In my opinion much of this relates to the submissive's state of mind prior to engagement. Being told I'm a worthless piece of shit and actually believing that isn't the same. Interacting with someone with very compromised self-esteem requires a different response than an individual with a clear sense of self worth. I know it's a game and a really trippy ride that might screw with my head or make me feel queasy within. But I'm not bad and I had a very hard time accepting the infallibility or absolute rightness of the dominant. Especially when it contradicted my common sense. In short no matter what he said I still trusted in who I knew myself to be and if it was too out the box my internal response refuted what was stated. I just couldn't swallow a lie.

~porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to Twoshoes)

Post #: 37

RE: Emotional sadism - 8/25/2010 2:17:51 PM

Twoshoes

Posts: 1218
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My conclusion is that I need to give examples with the reasonining behind them, if I intend to explain what I'm trying to do in the future; there seems to be no quick way to do it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
In my opinion much of this relates to the submissive's state of mind prior to engagement. Being told I'm a worthless piece of shit and actually believing that isn't the same. Interacting with someone with very compromised self-esteem requires a different response than an individual with a clear sense of self worth. I know it's a game and a really trippy ride that might screw with my head or make me feel queasy within. But I'm not bad and I had a very hard time accepting the infallibility or absolute rightness of the dominant. Especially when it contradicted my common sense. In short no matter what he said I still trusted in who I knew myself to be and if it was too out the box my internal response refuted what was stated. I just couldn't swallow a lie.

I'm unsure about degradation and "shit" isn't poetic enough for my liking, but this gave me something to consider.

It's preferable if the person on the recieving end doesn't believe it applies to them in a general sense. However, you could reaffirm their belief and then point out that they are indeed in a degrading/frustrating/humiliating situation, so it applies to them temporarily.

I believe you can get the best dramatic impact out of stark constrasts. This is also the reason I prefer to remain sweet even if I'm being slightly sadistic. So, converting your example:
"For someone who takes such great pride in themselves, how does it feel to let yourself be treated like a "piece of (insert poetic term here)?"

I was mostly referring to 'frustration' and the examples are different, but fueling any frustration by pointing out the lack of control over the temporary circumstances would likely work, especially for a very self-determined and free-spirited individual.

I don't see how a person would have trouble believing they are temporarily in a situation that is humiliating/frustrating/degrading.

quote:

Take a look at some of the answers right here in this very thread. Some of these situations, where people have been harmed by emotional sadism, I wouldn't go near that kind of play with a ten foot pole with them.

Agreed. I think I can identify mild "emotional" components in alot of people's play, but most don't fully go into it. It would appear that not everyone who does go all out seems to know exactly what they are doing as evidenced by the "harmed" people in these "situations". Not the type of cautious people that read forum posts to begin with (although I hope someone besides me finds this useful).

Thank you all for sharing and explaining.

< Message edited by Twoshoes -- 8/25/2010 3:18:55 PM >

(in reply to porcelaine)

Post #: 38

RE: Emotional sadism - 8/25/2010 6:19:32 PM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twoshoes
It would appear that not everyone who does go all out seems to know exactly what they are doing as evidenced by the "harmed" people in these "situations".

Sometimes they know exactly what they're doing. To some, that's what floats their boat.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to Twoshoes)

Post #: 39

RE: Emotional sadism - 8/27/2010 10:31:29 AM

DommeKeliDallas

Posts: 311
Joined: 1/27/2008
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Just being around me...MMMUUUUAAAHHHHHHH

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 40

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