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RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cu... - 8/22/2010 2:47:15 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

The link shows that taxpayers in the lowest tax bracket saw their rate cut by 33%, and that none of the higher brackets saw their rate cut by anywhere near that much.

K.




How do you cut taxes for those who conservatives tell me already pay no taxes?

Does this mean the Bush tax cuts were actually a form of welfare? 


(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cu... - 8/22/2010 2:48:04 AM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Actually the rich benefited the most since all the marginal rates decreased and the rich pay taxes under all those rates.

I take your point. But then, wouldn't it be true that anyone in a higher tax bracket than the next guy would benefit more? Maybe that highlights a fundamental problem with the way our tax system is structured?

K.

Yes, I think the tax system should be even more progressive.


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RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cu... - 8/22/2010 2:51:25 AM   
TheRaptorJesus


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When the price of goods for each given person is proportional to their wages, then I'll find the percentage of the percentage pertinent.

It could be the 5 a.m. logic playing tricks on my brain, but I'm pretty sure with fixed prices, the idea that the bottom benefit more from paying a smaller percentage of the pennies they make than the top doing the same on the billions they make is fallacious.

I value the overall number rather than the percentage of the number.

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RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cu... - 8/22/2010 3:01:29 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Yes, I think the tax system should be even more progressive.

Yeah, I dunno. I find it difficult to be totally at ease with the idea of taxing some people at a higher rate than others. It seems to me that the real problem lies with a bizarre tax code that keeps slick accountants employed finding arcane deductions and loopholes.

K.

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RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cu... - 8/22/2010 3:12:29 AM   
rulemylife


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I know what you mean about the 5AM thing, because I haven't been to sleep yet and I'm questioning whether I am making any sense.

I tend to like the idea of a national sales tax though, a consumption tax.  It is still a progressive tax but one that each person has some control over. 

I haven't researched it enough though to decide whether it would negatively impact those in the lowest income brackets.

(in reply to TheRaptorJesus)
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RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cu... - 8/22/2010 3:21:47 AM   
zenny


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Hippie, they are two different categories and have two different mindsets attached to them as can be seen via the two vastly different outcomes each question pertains to. To selectively lump a portion of one questions outcome with another is irresponsible at best and shows a general lack of understanding of the purpose of polling and how carefully crafted those questions are.

As such, no, 51% is not a majority in any sense with a +-3% error. Either way, anyone using opinion based statistics to justify their position is foolish indeed.

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RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cu... - 8/22/2010 12:26:03 PM   
popeye1250


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Brain, Bill was good for the economy, Bill Gates!
We were going to have a good economy in the 90's regardless of who was president.
Bill Clinton didn't "usher in" anything. The building blocks were already in place long before he became president.
And anyone who invests in the stock market doesn't want to see capital gains taxes go up and that includes most middle class people and people who's jobs depend on other people investing their money.
Washington needs to *cut spending* not raise taxes. You can't "spend your way out of bankruptcy!"
If you want to "hurt the rich" get rid of those "Foreign Aid" programs that are keeping the lawyers and lobbyists in D.C. in $600 allegator shoes and and "S" model Mercedes Benz's! Take a ride through the Virginia suburbs sometime and look at the "palaces" that they live in!

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 8/22/2010 12:29:39 PM >


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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cu... - 8/22/2010 12:34:49 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zenny

Hippie, they are two different categories and have two different mindsets attached to them as can be seen via the two vastly different outcomes each question pertains to. To selectively lump a portion of one questions outcome with another is irresponsible at best and shows a general lack of understanding of the purpose of polling and how carefully crafted those questions are.

As such, no, 51% is not a majority in any sense with a +-3% error. Either way, anyone using opinion based statistics to justify their position is foolish indeed.

Huh. I read them as the same question, just worded differently.

51%: tax cuts should continue...
18% taxes should rise (equivalent to tax cuts should not continue)...

How do you know what the margin of error is? I didn't read it in Kirata's post.
Maybe it's in invisible pixels.


_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to zenny)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cu... - 8/22/2010 1:55:37 PM   
zenny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster


quote:

ORIGINAL: zenny

Hippie, they are two different categories and have two different mindsets attached to them as can be seen via the two vastly different outcomes each question pertains to. To selectively lump a portion of one questions outcome with another is irresponsible at best and shows a general lack of understanding of the purpose of polling and how carefully crafted those questions are.

As such, no, 51% is not a majority in any sense with a +-3% error. Either way, anyone using opinion based statistics to justify their position is foolish indeed.

Huh. I read them as the same question, just worded differently.

51%: tax cuts should continue...
18% taxes should rise (equivalent to tax cuts should not continue)...

How do you know what the margin of error is? I didn't read it in Kirata's post.
Maybe it's in invisible pixels.



You have voiced one of the huge problems with such polling and questionnaires.

If you go to the OP link then click on "CNN Poll" it'll take you here:
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/08/19/rel11g.pdf

All things considering it doesn't seem like a bad questionnaire. Although I do wonder at what states/areas they had their respondents from.

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
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RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cu... - 8/22/2010 2:05:19 PM   
defiantbadgirl


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Trickle down economics only works when unions are in place. Rich CEO's are so greedy they outsource jobs to avoid even paying minimum wage. Some argue that buying only American made will stop them, but it's almost impossible to find anything 100% American made. I say tax the shit out of any company that outsources jobs overseas and throw any business owner who hires illegal immigrants in prison. Why shouldn't the rich pay higher taxes when they can afford it? I think outsourcing and hiring illegals should both be considered acts of treason. If they were this country wouldn't be in a recession.

< Message edited by defiantbadgirl -- 8/22/2010 2:09:03 PM >


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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cu... - 8/22/2010 2:42:50 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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@zenny: TY, now I know where the +/- 3% came from.

@defiant: Couldn't agree more.

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RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cu... - 8/22/2010 5:42:38 PM   
THELADY


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fairtax.org

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cu... - 8/22/2010 6:33:15 PM   
Lordandmaster


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I really like this column by James Surowiecki in the current New Yorker:

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial/2010/08/16/100816ta_talk_surowiecki

Yes, it's time to end the Bush tax cuts, but it's also time to institute new tax brackets for the super-rich. It makes no sense whatsoever that Lebron James and Lebron James's dentist are in the same bracket. Nor is a flat income trigger perfectly fair, since an annual income of $200,000 in New York and Alabama translate into very different standards of living.

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RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cu... - 8/22/2010 8:23:28 PM   
Brain


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This was an excellent post rule, very informative, well done.


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

The Bush tax cuts were across the board. And by far the greatest cut was for taxpayers in the lowest tax bracket, who saw their rate reduced by a whopping one-third.

Between 2001 and 2003, the Bush administration instituted a federal tax cut for all taxpayers. Among other changes, the lowest income tax rate was lowered from 15% to 10%, the 27% rate went to 25%, the 30% rate went to 28%, the 35% rate went to 33%, and the top marginal tax rate went from 39.6% to 35%. In addition, the child tax credit went from $500 to $1000, and the "marriage penalty" was reduced. ~Wikipedia



Then we have the paragraphs immediately following that from your link:


Some policy analysts and non-profit groups such as OMBWatch, Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, and the Tax Policy Center have attributed some of the rise in income inequality to the Bush administration's tax policy. In February 2007, President Bush addressed the rise of inequality for the first time, saying "The reason is clear: We have an economy that increasingly rewards education and skills because of that education".

However, prominent social scientists, such as economist Paul Krugman and political scientist Larry Bartels, have pointed out that education fails to explain the rising gap between the top 1% and the bottom 99%, which has been the site of most increases in inequality. They point out that if education were to blame, a larger group would be pulling ahead of the rest of the population, and that wages of highly educated earners have fallen far behind those of the very rich.

Furthermore, they point out that the U.S. is unique among developed countries in seeing such a sharp rise in inequality, while the composition of its economy and labor force is not - if education were to blame, one would expect the same trend across all post-industrial nations. Bartels has asserted that the skill base explanation is partially used as it is more "comforting" to blame impersonal forces, rather than policies.

The tax cuts have been largely opposed by American economists, including the Bush administration's own Economic Advisement Council. In 2003, 450 economists, including ten Nobel Prize laureate, signed the Economists' statement opposing the Bush tax cuts, sent to President Bush stating that "these tax cuts will worsen the long-term budget outlook... will reduce the capacity of the government to finance Social Security and Medicare benefits as well as investments in schools, health, infrastructure, and basic research... [and] generate further inequalities in after-tax income."

The Bush administration has claimed, based on the concept of the Laffer Curve
, that the tax cuts actually paid for the themselves by generating enough extra revenue from additional economic growth to offset the lower taxation rates. However, income tax revenues in dollar terms did not regain their FY 2000 peak until 2006. Through the end of 2008, total federal tax revenues relative to GDP have yet to regain their 2000 peak.


In contrast to the claims made by Bush, Cheney, and Republican presidential primary candidates such as Rudy Giuliani
, there is a broad consensus among even conservative economists (including current and former top economists of the Bush Administration such as Greg Mankiw) that the tax cuts have had a substantial net negative impact on revenues (i.e., revenues would have been substantially higher if the tax cuts had not taken place), even taking into account any stimulative effect the tax cuts may have had and any resulting revenue feedback effects.

When asked whether the Bush tax cuts had generated more revenue, Laffer stated that he did not know. However, he did say that the tax cuts were "what was right," because after the September 11 attacks and threats of recession, Bush "needed to stimulate the economy and spend for defense."

In terms of increasing inequality, the effect of Bush's tax cuts on the upper, middle and lower class is contentious. Most economists argue that the cuts have benefited the nation's richest households at the expense of the middle and lower class,
while libertarians and conservatives have claimed tax cuts benefited all taxpayers.   Economists Peter Orszag and William Gale described the Bush tax cuts as reverse government redistribution of wealth, "[shifting] the burden of taxation away from upper-income, capital-owning households and toward the wage-earning households of the lower and middle classes."  Between 2003 and 2004, following the 2003 tax cuts, the share of after-tax income going to the top 1% rose from 12.2% in 2003 to 14.0% in 2004. (This followed the period from 2000 to 2002, where after-tax incomes declined the most for the top 1%.) 


(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cu... - 8/22/2010 8:54:42 PM   
Brain


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I don't agree with you. Presidents of the United States make a difference. There is a huge difference between George Bush and Bill Clinton economic policies and economic accomplishments.

Just because you say it would've happened anyway doesn't make it true.

Bill Gates is just lucky his parents bought him the first computer and he was the first to be able to play with it at home. Gates is no smarter or better than anyone else. Gates just had a head start on everyone else. Sounds like he made you some money on the Microsoft stock you own.

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Brain, Bill was good for the economy, Bill Gates!
We were going to have a good economy in the 90's regardless of who was president.
Bill Clinton didn't "usher in" anything. The building blocks were already in place long before he became president.
And anyone who invests in the stock market doesn't want to see capital gains taxes go up and that includes most middle class people and people who's jobs depend on other people investing their money.
Washington needs to *cut spending* not raise taxes. You can't "spend your way out of bankruptcy!"
If you want to "hurt the rich" get rid of those "Foreign Aid" programs that are keeping the lawyers and lobbyists in D.C. in $600 allegator shoes and and "S" model Mercedes Benz's! Take a ride through the Virginia suburbs sometime and look at the "palaces" that they live in!


(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cu... - 8/22/2010 8:59:54 PM   
Marini


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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

Trickle down economics only works when unions are in place. Rich CEO's are so greedy they outsource jobs to avoid even paying minimum wage. Some argue that buying only American made will stop them, but it's almost impossible to find anything 100% American made. I say tax the shit out of any company that outsources jobs overseas and throw any business owner who hires illegal immigrants in prison. Why shouldn't the rich pay higher taxes when they can afford it? I think outsourcing and hiring illegals should both be considered acts of treason. If they were this country wouldn't be in a recession.


Great post, it will take our economic situation getting a lot worse, before such actions will be taken.

We have to keep trying to "create" jobs, and hope for the best until then!

As bad as this economy is, if we have to depend on "increasing taxes" to make a dent in the national debt, we are worse off than I even imagined.

A thinking person would be thinking? What's next?

< Message edited by Marini -- 8/22/2010 9:08:17 PM >


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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cu... - 8/22/2010 9:12:22 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
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From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

I know what you mean about the 5AM thing, because I haven't been to sleep yet and I'm questioning whether I am making any sense.

I tend to like the idea of a national sales tax though, a consumption tax.  It is still a progressive tax but one that each person has some control over. 

I haven't researched it enough though to decide whether it would negatively impact those in the lowest income brackets.



Lol,......ahhhhhh, ....no.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cu... - 8/22/2010 10:19:00 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

Trickle down economics only works when unions are in place.


You obviously dont understand "trickle down" economics. It effectiveness doesnt have the slightest thing to do with the presence of unions.

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Poll: Majority of Americans want to end Bush Tax cu... - 8/23/2010 3:18:35 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

I know what you mean about the 5AM thing, because I haven't been to sleep yet and I'm questioning whether I am making any sense.

I tend to like the idea of a national sales tax though, a consumption tax.  It is still a progressive tax but one that each person has some control over. 

I haven't researched it enough though to decide whether it would negatively impact those in the lowest income brackets.



Lol,......ahhhhhh, ....no.


Very informative Popeye.

I understand though, we don't want to tax your brain too much.

Tax?  Get it?  God I crack myself up.



(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 39
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