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RE: Single payer costs - 8/26/2010 5:59:10 AM   
truckinslave


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quote:

So tell me, truckin. Where was the superior system you keep insisting is here in the US but not in Canada when this girl died?


Your implication that mistakes don't happen in Canada is far beneath your usual standard.

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RE: Single payer costs - 8/26/2010 6:01:36 AM   
tazzygirl


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It is your implication that mistakes ONLY happen in canada that i was addressing. Each country has their own problems. Implying the US system is superior to others simply because its for "hire" doesnt make it any more or less efficient than the Canadian one.

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RE: Single payer costs - 8/26/2010 7:07:18 AM   
RacerJim


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Hey Tazzy, oh Im not just sometimes you know it just feels good to reach out and slap the stupid?



And when your beloved single payer healthcare system says no to those who don't have the wherewithal to go elsewhere for treatment what then? It just feels good to reach out and slap the ideologists.


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RE: Single payer costs - 8/26/2010 7:14:18 AM   
DCWoody


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That's the stupidest comment so far this thread, and this is an american healthcare debate thread.

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RE: Single payer costs - 8/26/2010 7:14:46 AM   
BoiJen


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RacerJim that happens already. Just ask me about the artificial disc replacement surgery I can't get covered over a spinal fusion because the insurance company doesn't want to pay for it despite the surgery having a greater chance of success and reducing the need for future surgeries.

This happens in the current health care system.

I know this because the wait for a facility that will take an surgery need that is not being met by insurance is LONG. And that's right here in south Florida.

boi


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RE: Single payer costs - 8/26/2010 7:18:55 AM   
RacerJim


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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

Who can afford thousands of dollars for "quality care" when health insurance companies refuse to pay? First you have to spend your life savings and sell your house if you have one. Then when you run out of money, you die. The "quality care" isn't worth the risk. Also, if Canada offers such poor quality care, why is the life expectency higher for Canadians than for Americans? I plan to move to Canada with Sir when he finishes college. After living there for 3 years, I plan to apply for citizenship. I'm tired of feeling like I'm playing Russian roulette with my life simply because I wasn't born in a country with universal health care.

You haven't left yet? When you move to Canada leave your American citizenship and passport at the border, and after you become a Canadian citizen don't come back here for healthcare.

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RE: Single payer costs - 8/26/2010 7:22:36 AM   
mnottertail


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She can't get out, all the exits are blocked with doctors leaving the US, due to insurance reform here, as was widely reported by the rabid right earlier, before passage. Among other misques.  

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RE: Single payer costs - 8/26/2010 7:23:42 AM   
cadenas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
Hey Tazzy, oh Im not just sometimes you know it just feels good to reach out and slap the stupid?

And when your beloved single payer healthcare system says no to those who don't have the wherewithal to go elsewhere for treatment what then? It just feels good to reach out and slap the ideologists.

And when your beloved corporate health insurance says no to those who don't have the wherewithal to go elsewhere for treatment what then?

And why would you want to slap yourself?


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RE: Single payer costs - 8/26/2010 7:46:44 AM   
RacerJim


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

RacerJim that happens already. Just ask me about the artificial disc replacement surgery I can't get covered over a spinal fusion because the insurance company doesn't want to pay for it despite the surgery having a greater chance of success and reducing the need for future surgeries.

This happens in the current health care system.

I know this because the wait for a facility that will take an surgery need that is not being met by insurance is LONG. And that's right here in south Florida.

boi


I realize that happens under our current health care system...no system is perfect. Since many people here hold up Canada's healthcare system as just as good as, if not better than, ours and less expensive to boot, it would be interesting to know how many facilities exist in Canada that do spinal fusion surgery for those without insurance and how long the wait is.

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RE: Single payer costs - 8/26/2010 7:54:56 AM   
DCWoody


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"in Canada....those without insurance"

You may have missed the point of UHC. I have no idea of waiting times in canada, but I bet it's shorter than 'never if you can't pay'.

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RE: Single payer costs - 8/26/2010 7:58:46 AM   
BoiJen


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Spinal fusions are incredibly common and quite easy to do (according to the neurosurgeon we're working with) and they're covered by insurance (which we have). It's the artificial disc replacement that isn't covered and is about a 10 year old technology.

However, what we know to be true is that 40 and 50 years ago joint replacement surgeries were done with solid pieces and people lost function of that joint. As technology developed, we were able to create artificial joints that function better and better. This is medical fact.

despite having proof that the artificial disc replacement is a better option over the spinal fusion (especially when dealing with cervical fusions) insurance companies STILL won't cover the surgery. They will only cover a fusion, which has an 80% chance of needing additional surgery within 10 years because of the damage that immobility does to the bone and disc structures of the spine and it's surrounding tissues.

No, this system isn't perfect. Thank you for admitting that.

Now, in terms of dealing with a health care crisis (more and more people simply can't afford to seek care and the financial burden then falls on the individuals who can seek care), single payer offers everyone a chance at getting the medical help they need. In an economic crisis, single payer reduces cost per person. economically and medically speaking, the single payer option provides the most benefit to the most people (as demonstrated through earlier links on this thread).

Would you rather that a minority of people absorb the costs of medical care through the current system and still get turned down for care (as I've pointed out) because insurance companies are running the program, or would you rather the financial burden be more evenly distributed, more people be able to seek care, and the system be run by doctors, patients, and health care industry and development demands?

boi

PS. While living in Detroit a few years ago, I was visiting Canada and friends over there when I got bit by something that caused cellulitis in about 70% of my right forearm. I thought that some generic anti-histamine would fix the problem. Instead I ended up not being able to feel my fingers and going to an urgent care center in Canada. I was given the antibiotics I needed to take at home and an injection to begin treating the problem immediately inside of 25 minutes. I was out the door with a cost of $75 for the visit and the drugs. I had no insurance at the time.

While waiting to be seen for a Recluse spider bite, which caused an accelerated version of the previously described problem, in the U.S. I waited 3 hours and spiked a fever that almost boiled my brain ( a human body can only stand 114 for so long). I received no medication to take home and was treated for only the immediate infection. It cost almost $1000. I had minimal insurance coverage at the time.

One of these systems has already shown me that it's more effective and efficient than the other.


< Message edited by BoiJen -- 8/26/2010 8:05:34 AM >


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RE: Single payer costs - 8/26/2010 8:03:14 AM   
Lucylastic


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waiting lists can be a problem,
however
between 1995 and 2001, 6128 patients over 50 years underwent spinal surgery for degenerative lumbar disease in Ontario, Canada.


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RE: Single payer costs - 8/26/2010 8:06:51 AM   
BoiJen


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Lucy, can you do me a favor and see if you can find those same numbers for Ann Arbor, Michigan?

There's a spinal treatment center in the area, is why I ask.

And a citation please?

Thank you.

boi

< Message edited by BoiJen -- 8/26/2010 8:07:44 AM >


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RE: Single payer costs - 8/26/2010 8:08:17 AM   
DCWoody


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tbh I hear in Canada it's less of a 'can be a' and more of a 'are a huge'....apparently big restrictions on people going private?....which doesn't sound sensible.

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RE: Single payer costs - 8/26/2010 8:08:28 AM   
RacerJim


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
Hey Tazzy, oh Im not just sometimes you know it just feels good to reach out and slap the stupid?

And when your beloved single payer healthcare system says no to those who don't have the wherewithal to go elsewhere for treatment what then? It just feels good to reach out and slap the ideologists.

And when your beloved corporate health insurance says no to those who don't have the wherewithal to go elsewhere for treatment what then?

And why would you want to slap yourself?



Our current system offers a plethera of corporate health insurances to go to. A single payer system would not.

Slap yourself.

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RE: Single payer costs - 8/26/2010 8:19:21 AM   
DCWoody


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"A single payer system would not."

That'd be your little secret dude.

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RE: Single payer costs - 8/26/2010 8:25:21 AM   
Lucylastic


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Jen... the only info I could find was
http://www.michiganspineandbrainsurgeons.com/pages/practice.php
http://www.spinedocsusa.com/
and the original souce for my figures werent brilliant, but a injury excercise site
http://exercisesforinjuries.com/how-common-is-spinal-fusion-surgery/


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RE: Single payer costs - 8/26/2010 8:37:47 AM   
Lucylastic


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If you are a citizen, your operation is covered, unless there are other medical reasons not to do the procedure.Wait times are part of the problem most definitely. Cost isnt, 

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RE: Single payer costs - 8/26/2010 8:43:36 AM   
BoiJen


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Thank you, Lucy.

This from the first link.

....a high volume spine practice of over 1600 spine cases per year.

This from your original article:

Overall, the rate of lumbar fusion reoperation was found at 10.4% within 2 years after the procedure

With these numbers, when insurance companies control the system new technology is being rejected (see my earlier posts on the subject) and patients are made to suffer excruciating surgeries; with a single payer system the system is directed by doctors, patients, and the need for medical advancement.

When this is what my personal life is faced with in the immediate term, when my family is fortunate enough to have good lawyers and good health insurance, I can't imagine the pain and struggle a family without health insurance would go through. It's infuriating to even think about. Then again, I've seen the debilitating pain a fusion can cause and the pain that exists without it. Disc replacement and stem cell research are cutting edge technology which would reduce overall costs of dealing with this type of injury and disease....and now I end up repeating myself....see above.

boi


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RE: Single payer costs - 8/26/2010 8:43:44 AM   
RacerJim


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

Spinal fusions are incredibly common and quite easy to do (according to the neurosurgeon we're working with) and they're covered by insurance (which we have). It's the artificial disc replacement that isn't covered and is about a 10 year old technology.

However, what we know to be true is that 40 and 50 years ago joint replacement surgeries were done with solid pieces and people lost function of that joint. As technology developed, we were able to create artificial joints that function better and better. This is medical fact.

despite having proof that the artificial disc replacement is a better option over the spinal fusion (especially when dealing with cervical fusions) insurance companies STILL won't cover the surgery. They will only cover a fusion, which has an 80% chance of needing additional surgery within 10 years because of the damage that immobility does to the bone and disc structures of the spine and it's surrounding tissues.

No, this system isn't perfect. Thank you for admitting that.

Now, in terms of dealing with a health care crisis (more and more people simply can't afford to seek care and the financial burden then falls on the individuals who can seek care), single payer offers everyone a chance at getting the medical help they need. In an economic crisis, single payer reduces cost per person. economically and medically speaking, the single payer option provides the most benefit to the most people (as demonstrated through earlier links on this thread).

Would you rather that a minority of people absorb the costs of medical care through the current system and still get turned down for care (as I've pointed out) because insurance companies are running the program, or would you rather the financial burden be more evenly distributed, more people be able to seek care, and the system be run by doctors, patients, and health care industry and development demands?

boi

PS. While living in Detroit a few years ago, I was visiting Canada and friends over there when I got bit by something that caused cellulitis in about 70% of my right forearm. I thought that some generic anti-histamine would fix the problem. Instead I ended up not being able to feel my fingers and going to an urgent care center in Canada. I was given the antibiotics I needed to take at home and an injection to begin treating the problem immediately inside of 25 minutes. I was out the door with a cost of $75 for the visit and the drugs. I had no insurance at the time.

While waiting to be seen for a Recluse spider bite, which caused an accelerated version of the previously described problem, in the U.S. I waited 3 hours and spiked a fever that almost boiled my brain ( a human body can only stand 114 for so long). I received no medication to take home and was treated for only the immediate infection. It cost almost $1000. I had minimal insurance coverage at the time.

One of these systems has already shown me that it's more effective and efficient than the other.



You are certainly entitled to your opinion. The fact that a high-level government official in Canada recently came to the U.S. specifically to get treatment he couldn't get, or didn't want to get, in Canada shows me that Canada's healthcare system isn't perfect either.

"..., or would you rather the financial burden be more evenly distributed, ..." goes hand in hand with Obama's "redistribution of wealth." Not only no but hell no. Furthermore, "..., and the system be run by doctors, patients, and health care industry and development demands?" flies in the face of how Obamacare will be run as it is, much less how he'd prefer it be (single payer)...by ideological political appointees.

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Profile   Post #: 40
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