RE: What makes a Terrorist ?

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truckinslave -> RE: What makes a Terrorist ? (8/28/2010 6:41:41 PM)
I sometimes repeat things until they are addressed.

hertz -> RE: What makes a Terrorist ? (8/29/2010 3:47:46 AM)
quote: there is no credible challenge to those statements The thing about credibility is that it must always be considered in the light of gullibility. Now, a gullible and unthinking person will naturally come to the conclusion that this dumb statement: quote: If the Muslim nations of the middle east disarmed to the level of sticks the Israelis would leave them in peace. If Israel disarmed they would be slaughtered to the last man (literally). ...is true. It has to be true - 'everybody' says it is true. Of course there is no debate to be had. The argument is annihilated. But of course, a little reflection will soon uncover the point that the Palestinians in the West Bank are disarmed to the level of sticks and guess what? Yep, that's right - the Israelis are not leaving them alone. In fact, they steal more and more land every day, and continue to build Apartheid all across the occupied territories. Further reflection might also uncover the point that actually, when it comes down to it, what the sticks argument is actually about is justifying the killing of thousands of civilians in the West Bank with the latest US and European military grade high technology. The argument, when you boil it down is this: 'They'd kill us if they had the chance, so we are justified in killing them first'. The use of the word 'they' is really interesting. Who are 'they'? It would seem, given the random nature of the Israeli killings of Palestinians, 'they' are every Palestinian man, woman and child. This argument is being used by 'the only democracy in the middle east' to justify indiscriminately bombing a civilian population, repeatedly destroying the infrastructure of Gaza, preventing any economic activity from happening via a blockade, and denying a group of people the right to self-determination. No argument? You don't even try.

truckinslave -> RE: What makes a Terrorist ? (8/29/2010 3:52:46 AM)
quote: the Palestinians in the West Bank are disarmed to the level of sticks and guess what? Yep, that's right - the Israelis are not leaving them alone. In fact, they steal more and more land every day, If there is a rational, TOS-compliant answer to that level of unreality it escapes me. Be well.

hertz -> RE: What makes a Terrorist ? (8/29/2010 4:00:09 AM)
Well, you explain the Settlements and the settler-only roads. Explain the Wall of Shame. Explain what is happening in East Jerusalem. It's all well and good complaining about 'unreality', Neo, but the gradual destruction of the future Palestinian state by Israel is a fact on the ground.

Aneirin -> RE: What makes a Terrorist ? (8/29/2010 5:23:57 AM)
Fast Reply Ok, I have noticed from an OP that asked what makes a terrorist this thread has again degenerated into a tit for tat war of words about Israel and Palestine as if that region is the only region in the world that spawns terrorists. But I do understand as terrorism threatens the US and it seemingly coming from that area, the Israeli/Palestinian issue is at the forefront of your minds and so terrorism is this Muslim/Jew/Christian thing, a disagreement as ancient as at least the Crusades. But if the conversation has turned about to the Israeli/Palestine issue, it is obviously of importance and concern, so a further question has to be asked; What makes a terrorist coming from that region of the world ? Why does it attack the west so much ? And is there a solution ?

hertz -> RE: What makes a Terrorist ? (8/29/2010 5:56:45 AM)
quote: What makes a terrorist coming from that region of the world ? Why does it attack the west so much ? With the greatest of respect, Aneirin, I think your framing of your questions leaves much to be desired. Why is it that you assume the terrorists in the Palestine/Israel conflict come from that region of the world? Most of the settlers, for example, in recent years have come from anywhere but that region of the world. The US is heavily involved as a state sponsor of Israeli state terrorism, and last I read, the US is many thousands of miles away from the region. Even the UK and some European countries supply Israeli terrorists with weapons, and are arguably supporting state terrorism. Why the focus on people coming from that region alone when in fact the problems originate on our doorstep as much as over there? I am also uncomfortable with your apparent assumption that the terrorists are attacking the West, without you making any reference to Western attacks on some countries of the Middle East. Obviously, my picking you up on this is going to attract all sorts of accusations upon my head that I am supporting the terrorists by claiming a certain equivalence between us and them. But there it is. I don't see the point in engaging with questions that are framed in such a way as to make it almost impossible to answer them fully. 'We' are the terrorists as much as 'they' are.

Aneirin -> RE: What makes a Terrorist ? (8/29/2010 6:25:42 AM)
I cow tail to no political party, I have my own views on this subject, and I do believe the west has got a lot to do with the reason people become terrorists, as with empires, there is always the subjugated and with that oppression. I like to attempt to put myself in another's position, and know the facts as they do, and there make my own conclusions as they may do to arrive at my own ideas and there see if I can understand a particular motivation. I also see religion to be at the root of all this aggression, people of a certain three with common ancestry arguing over ancient hearsay, whether it is religion that propels the action or the action that propels the religion, I am unsure as of yet, but the two are indefatigably entwined. Furthermore, I have lived in the middle east for short periods of time and have a perspective based upon my own observation, for they are people like us, just wanting to get on with life, live love and enjoy without the hassles that affect them as much as us, for many do not want to be the enemies of their friends just because politics says so.

StrangerThan -> RE: What makes a Terrorist ? (8/29/2010 7:21:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hertz quote: there is no credible challenge to those statements The thing about credibility is that it must always be considered in the light of gullibility. Now, a gullible and unthinking person will naturally come to the conclusion that this dumb statement: quote: If the Muslim nations of the middle east disarmed to the level of sticks the Israelis would leave them in peace. If Israel disarmed they would be slaughtered to the last man (literally). ...is true. It has to be true - 'everybody' says it is true. Of course there is no debate to be had. The argument is annihilated. But of course, a little reflection will soon uncover the point that the Palestinians in the West Bank are disarmed to the level of sticks and guess what? Yep, that's right - the Israelis are not leaving them alone. In fact, they steal more and more land every day, and continue to build Apartheid all across the occupied territories. Further reflection might also uncover the point that actually, when it comes down to it, what the sticks argument is actually about is justifying the killing of thousands of civilians in the West Bank with the latest US and European military grade high technology. The argument, when you boil it down is this: 'They'd kill us if they had the chance, so we are justified in killing them first'. The use of the word 'they' is really interesting. Who are 'they'? It would seem, given the random nature of the Israeli killings of Palestinians, 'they' are every Palestinian man, woman and child. This argument is being used by 'the only democracy in the middle east' to justify indiscriminately bombing a civilian population, repeatedly destroying the infrastructure of Gaza, preventing any economic activity from happening via a blockade, and denying a group of people the right to self-determination. No argument? You don't even try. That is about as slanted a discussion of the arab-israeli conflict as I've ever seen. It completely ignores the fact that Israel has been attacked by just about every Arab country it borders. It ignores the fact that many of the west bank folk were forced out of Jordan as the result of a protracted civil war. It ignores the fact that a militant segment of the population in Lebanon and the West Bank consistently conducts acts of terrorism against israel. It ignores the three no's, the stated intent to destroy israel. The wall of shame? Give me a break.

StrangerThan -> RE: What makes a Terrorist ? (8/29/2010 7:26:44 AM)
To try and stay within the topic Aneirin, I don't think there is going to be a textbook definition of terrorism that will withstand the folk determined to accuse everyone but terrorists for their actions. To me it's simple, the willingness to slaughter innocent people. But simple doesn't work and we know it doesn't. Having said that, I think we all recognize acts of terrorism when they occur. It's in the endless assignation of blame and finger pointing that follows that truth becomes muddled and acts defended because someone else did something.

hertz -> RE: What makes a Terrorist ? (8/29/2010 8:47:25 AM)
quote: It completely ignores the fact that Israel has been attacked by just about every Arab country it borders. It ignores the fact that many of the west bank folk were forced out of Jordan as the result of a protracted civil war. It ignores the fact that a militant segment of the population in Lebanon and the West Bank consistently conducts acts of terrorism against israel. It ignores the three no's, the stated intent to destroy israel. There you go justifying military attacks on innocent women and children again. Not to mention ignoring the fact that Israel has attacked just about every country it borders, that it occupies and illegally builds settlements in the West Bank in contravention to international law, that it consistently sends out squads of trained operatives to kill, capture or torture members of organisations it disapproves of, and of course, the stated intent of some amongst its leadership never to allow the Palestinians to inhabit the land of Palestine under their own governance. The wall of shame? Yes, shame.

StrangerThan -> RE: What makes a Terrorist ? (8/29/2010 8:58:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hertz quote: It completely ignores the fact that Israel has been attacked by just about every Arab country it borders. It ignores the fact that many of the west bank folk were forced out of Jordan as the result of a protracted civil war. It ignores the fact that a militant segment of the population in Lebanon and the West Bank consistently conducts acts of terrorism against israel. It ignores the three no's, the stated intent to destroy israel. There you go justifying military attacks on innocent women and children again. Not to mention ignoring the fact that Israel has attacked just about every country it borders, that it occupies and illegally builds settlements in the West Bank in contravention to international law, that it consistently sends out squads of trained operatives to kill, capture or torture members of organisations it disapproves of, and of course, the stated intent of some amongst its leadership never to allow the Palestinians to inhabit the land of Palestine under their own governance. The wall of shame? Yes, shame. If you don't want wall, then quit friggin sending across terrorists. It is mind blowing to me that you would assign shame to the wall, while not assigning shame to those who are the basis for the wall in the first place. No where did I condone attacks on innocent people, and yet in the terms of innocent attacks, how about rockets fired at random across the border? Yeah, I know they don't have advanced guidance systems. Which is a good thing since if they did, more innocent civilians would be dead. What I said was your treatment of the situation is slanted. It talks of one aspect of the conflict as if that is all that exists and completely ignores the threat from the other sides. The quote you call into question regards disarmament and who is accepting of who. It ignores that after the 1948 war, Arabs were allowed to stay inside of Israel and gain citizenship while jews were forcibly ejected from Arab lands. It ignores the stated intent to destroy the state from aspects you choose to ignore in terms of sticks and guns. It is framing the entire debate in terms of one point, and purposely ignoring the rest. That is slanted. Pointing that out is not a defense of innocent deaths - many of which you are ignoring in the first place.

Real0ne -> RE: What makes a Terrorist ? (8/29/2010 9:04:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerThan That is about as slanted a discussion of the arab-israeli conflict as I've ever seen. It completely ignores the fact that Israel has been attacked by just about every Arab country it borders. It ignores the fact that many of the west bank folk were forced out of Jordan as the result of a protracted civil war. It ignores the fact that a militant segment of the population in Lebanon and the West Bank consistently conducts acts of terrorism against israel. It ignores the three no's, the stated intent to destroy israel. The wall of shame? Give me a break. Israel became a state by attacking those in the region with exactly the same methods. So how would you feel if you had a few hundred acre ranch and someone took out your family established a state by adverse possession and conquest and said you no longer have title or right to your dominion? Especially if they were backed by the biggest bully in town? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yV05IH3a4Bg

StrangerThan -> RE: What makes a Terrorist ? (8/29/2010 9:22:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerThan That is about as slanted a discussion of the arab-israeli conflict as I've ever seen. It completely ignores the fact that Israel has been attacked by just about every Arab country it borders. It ignores the fact that many of the west bank folk were forced out of Jordan as the result of a protracted civil war. It ignores the fact that a militant segment of the population in Lebanon and the West Bank consistently conducts acts of terrorism against israel. It ignores the three no's, the stated intent to destroy israel. The wall of shame? Give me a break. Israel became a state by attacking those in the region with exactly the same methods. So how would you feel if you had a few hundred acre ranch and someone took out your family established a state by adverse possession and conquest and said you no longer have title or right to your dominion? Especially if they were backed by the biggest bully in town? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yV05IH3a4Bg isreal was formed out of territory previously controlled by the Ottoman empire and relegated to British control after world war I. The brits were unable to solve the issue and asked the UN for help. UNISCOP defined the initial region by which Israel became a state. While both sides fought and committed atrocities, Israel itself was formed from UN sanctioned territory.

hertz -> RE: What makes a Terrorist ? (8/29/2010 9:22:14 AM)
quote: It is framing the entire debate in terms of one point, and purposely ignoring the rest. That is slanted. Pointing that out is not a defense of innocent deaths - many of which you are ignoring in the first place If your own position was not so lamentably compromised by Zionist lies and propaganda, you'd probably have a point. The harsh reality is (as I am sure Neo would understand) that 'truth' is a manufactured product. In the same way that you find my truth incredible and unlikely and difficult to hear, I find your truth simplistic, fake and unsatisfying. And (to get back to the initial point) this is the sort of situation under which terrorism can flourish. No-one hears the point of view of the other side, no-one has any interest in meeting half way and as the argument continues and positions polarise and harden, no-one has any interest in the argument any more. In the end it seems that the only way to make things change is to burn someone's house to the ground and kill their children - maybe then they will start to listen. I don't know why I get sucked into this argument. It always goes the same way, and nothing ever changes. I can guarantee that if I continue arguing much more in this thread, someone will come along and call me an Anti-Semite, because that is the next step in the argument.

StrangerThan -> RE: What makes a Terrorist ? (8/29/2010 9:27:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hertz quote: It is framing the entire debate in terms of one point, and purposely ignoring the rest. That is slanted. Pointing that out is not a defense of innocent deaths - many of which you are ignoring in the first place If your own position was not so lamentably compromised by Zionist lies and propaganda, you'd probably have a point. The harsh reality is (as I am sure Neo would understand) that 'truth' is a manufactured product. In the same way that you find my truth incredible and unlikely and difficult to hear, I find your truth simplistic, fake and unsatisfying. And (to get back to the initial point) this is the sort of situation under which terrorism can flourish. No-one hears the point of view of the other side, no-one has any interest in meeting half way and as the argument continues and positions polarise and harden, no-one has any interest in the argument any more. In the end it seems that the only way to make things change is to burn someone's house to the ground and kill their children - maybe then they will start to listen. I don't know why I get sucked into this argument. It always goes the same way, and nothing ever changes. I can guarantee that if I continue arguing much more in this thread, someone will come along and call me an Anti-Semite, because that is the next step in the argument. In other words, you're going to stick to framing your entire stance on the region by highlighting one point and ignoring the rest. Gotcha.

hertz -> RE: What makes a Terrorist ? (8/29/2010 9:35:22 AM)
quote: In other words, you're going to stick to framing your entire stance on the region by highlighting one point and ignoring the rest. And what are you going to do, I wonder?

StrangerThan -> RE: What makes a Terrorist ? (8/29/2010 9:40:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hertz quote: In other words, you're going to stick to framing your entire stance on the region by highlighting one point and ignoring the rest. And what are you going to do, I wonder? Maybe ummm, look around? It helps.

Vendaval -> RE: What makes a Terrorist ? (8/29/2010 12:31:56 PM)
I think that this aspect should be part of the discussion. Noun S: (n) state-sponsored terrorism (terrorism practiced by a government against its own people or in support of international terrorism) http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=state-sponsored%20terrorism

Aneirin -> RE: What makes a Terrorist ? (8/29/2010 5:24:10 PM)
From what I understand so far from this post is that those across the pond have a different view than those on my side of the pond, could this be because of the fact that pro Israeli sentiment exists in US policies, where as far as I am aware, it does not feature in our politics. If so how free are you across the pond to decide on the situation, do you take on board what your politicians say or make up your own mind on what the observe from other sources. Edited to add, this was meant as a reply to others, not Vendaval for I understand Vendaval has a far reaching mind, not the mind I am talking about here.

SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: What makes a Terrorist ? (8/29/2010 5:37:44 PM)
Experiencing social injustice, a misguided belief that you can change it by killing people and an overwhelming sense of self importance. Everyone has met the kind of person that can become a terrorist.

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