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Observation: Honesty - 4/22/2006 7:55:48 AM   
CERCKL


Posts: 1039
Joined: 3/4/2006
Status: offline 		This is an attribute which a lot of people list or will tell you is important to them but I hold that it isn't in alot of ways...or at least there is a confusion regarding what they actually are looking for. I was speaking with a friend of Mine last night for a couple of hours on the phone and we are very straightforward with each other, we discuss aspects of ourselves and noted that these were things regarding ourselves which frighten people to a distance. I think what others are seeking, is not being lied to about situations (Are you fucking around on me?) but they aren't looking for the type of intimate honesty where you choose to allow your self to be shown to them and allow to see what is behind the roles, masks we tend to wear in different situations.

No, this is not just a rant of Me dealing with My last thread...but rather an insight that hit Me after reading Celeste's on tolerance and reflecting on last night's conversation, relationships (all types, friends, lovers, partners, submissives)...and realizing that even though in the D/s there can be a very intense dynamic, especially with honesty, trust, et al...alot of people seemed to be frightened by the sharp glare of revealing their own aspects, habits, self to them as well as showing yourself to them...perhaps with unblinking honesty, it is just too difficult to hold to the narratives we tell ourselves to rationalize, explain ourselves and when someone reveals that area, it is easier to hide. I know that with my friend last night, she is very intuitive to Me and points out aspects which I would instinctively want to deny but which I pause and see what it is she sees and if she is right...
Well, just a parting thought, I am off for the day, I'll see if this resonated with anyone or not when I return. Personal thanks to those who were concerned for My well-being, I will be fine. I always choose to be.
Namaste,

C

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AND I AM TOO AN ASSHOLE, I HAVE REFERENCES!!!

"Please, please, please believe me, I really am an asshole. All that Enlightenment and Higher Learning shit was all a ruse."
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RE: Observation: Honesty - 4/22/2006 8:06:53 AM   
darq


Posts: 443
Joined: 4/21/2006
From: under a rock
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quote:

... perhaps with unblinking honesty, it is just too difficult to hold to the narratives we tell ourselves to rationalize, explain ourselves and when someone reveals that area, it is easier to hide ...


That part resonated for me.

I think people relish the idealism of honesty but once that honesty starts to hurt a little bit or becomes uncomfortable they're not so interested in it. I consider myself a very honest person but there are honestly some things that I do NOT want to be completely honest about ... Especially with another person. If its something I don't even want to admit is part of myself *to myself* how much harder is it going to be to own up to it *with another person* ...

Honesty, complete and forthright honesty, is a desireable trait until you really stop and think about what that means. Some of us, literally, can't handle the truth. Especially about ourselves or those we choose to be closest to us. I think thats one of my own personal weaknesses ... If anyone gets too close to certain truths about me, I run away and hide from them (the truths and the person who discovered them) rather than accept and deal with it.

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RE: Observation: Honesty - 4/22/2006 8:07:26 AM   
crazypatient


Posts: 31
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline 		I think that depends on the dom and His prefrences... so are afraid by real problems and it will scare them away... many others insist on complete honesty as in re-enforces their total control...

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RE: Observation: Honesty - 4/22/2006 8:16:01 AM   
Clothespingirl


Posts: 82
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		I'm just in the beginning of the honesty stuff.  I've had to kick three guys to the curb for being basically dishonest.  Two of them them were trying to get me emotionally attached while not mentioning that they were married.

Eventually, maybe I'll meet a man who doesn't lie in the beginning, and we can start working on the deeper honesty...

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RE: Observation: Honesty - 4/22/2006 8:33:34 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		A very interesting thought process. I think most people are more dishonest with themselves than they are with anyone else. I know if I take a clear look at myself I would have to own up to that. True pure honesty is frightening as hell. Yet, with that being said it is my goal. Not so much the easy sort, the kind that is borderline rude at times....example: yes those jeans do make your butt look bigger....but the difficult honesty that is directed more within and forces me to constantly evaluate and let go or push myself further past fears. My belief is that the more honest we are to ourselves the more honest we are with others.

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RE: Observation: Honesty - 4/22/2006 8:38:18 AM   
MissyRane


Posts: 1032
Joined: 5/11/2005
Status: offline 		I was watching a replay of a show with Dr. Phil this morning..where there was this person who was just brutally honest which led to problems..n then he talked to another woman who could never ever be honest n said yes to everything..it was an interesting show and like he said, you don't have to be brutally hoenst to be honest there're many ways to be honest..guess we just don't settle down to find the best way to be honest

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RE: Observation: Honesty - 4/22/2006 9:04:50 AM   
heartfeltsub


Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline 		i think it is we are afraid of the vulnerability of  being completely and brutually honest and we free the rejection that might occur when we are that vulnerable. Even more so when we have gotten close with someone, because that person's opinion of us carries much more weight and can be much more hurtful than someone we don't really know. So someone or some situation that causes us to be that honest and vulnerable and face that kind of possible rejection is scary. Just my 2 cents on it.

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RE: Observation: Honesty - 4/22/2006 9:05:54 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		C........ most people that say they want "honesty" only mean it in terms of "as long as it does not offend or hurt me" ..... *laughs*.......
 
I have a deep need for honesty, even if it hurts.... this does not mean I am perfect at it, but am pretty goddam good at telling and recieving. I recently read Barry Blanton's "Radical Honesty".... there's much good there for anyone wishing a more open life... and of course, some people believe total honesty means not giving a shit if others are hurt, but I've found you can be honest without being rude, usually.
 
Concepts like "little white" lies bug me.... they're bullshit. It is either a lie, the truth, or a mistake.
 
Some lies are good... we can drag out the old whore of an example about lying to save someone's life.
 
But overwhelmingly.......... I want the truth. One of my prime goals in life and in the lifestyle is to find one that I can turn myself inside out to, and she to me. That's not asking too much, is it?
 
Level

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RE: Observation: Honesty - 4/22/2006 9:05:55 AM   
OTKkindaGirl


Posts: 447
Joined: 12/26/2005
From: NW Arkansas
Status: offline 		but they aren't looking for the type of intimate honesty where you choose to allow your self to be shown to them and allow to see what is behind the roles, masks we tend to wear in different situations.

i think it's called self-preservation, sometimes it is hard to face the ugliness of  truths whether it be emotional, intimate, or trivial.
you talk about  masks.  Sometimes when the mask is removed the truth is hard to look at  but sometimes that mask is uglier than the truth.  To get complete honesty, to get to the actual truth of things, requires two things in my opinion......patience and unconditional love.  If a person feels that they have those two things....it eliminates the fears that keep them from revealing themselves as vulnerable or weak.  Let's face it.... it is human nature to be judgemental in one form or another and only natural to want to be accepted in the order of things.  Nobody wants to be picked apart themselves but most have no problem picking others apart.....as for me, i don't mind being picked apart just please put the puzzle back together when you are done and don't mind the few missing pieces.

< Message edited by OTKkindaGirl -- 4/22/2006 9:06:49 AM >

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RE: Observation: Honesty - 4/22/2006 9:07:31 AM   
Level


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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

i think it is we are afraid of the vulnerability of  being completely and brutually honest and we free the rejection that might occur when we are that vulnerable. Even more so when we have gotten close with someone, because that person's opinion of us carries much more weight and can be much more hurtful than someone we don't really know. So someone or some situation that causes us to be that honest and vulnerable and face that kind of possible rejection is scary. Just my 2 cents on it.


True and well said, heartfelt.
 
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RE: Observation: Honesty - 4/22/2006 11:09:28 AM   
TemptingNviceSub


Posts: 3054
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline 		HONESTY..such a simple word..but have you ever thought that ones honesty is always based on perception...so therefore how truly honest can it be, and let me preface that to say in most cases..and as regards to self honesty..even with self honesty we are our own worse critics, so again perception is a factor.So I guess basically you can only be as honest as YOU can at the end of a day and go on..(and I can so feel the flames begin..:0)..)...be well..Tempting

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RE: Observation: Honesty - 4/22/2006 11:45:01 AM   
CERCKL


Posts: 1039
Joined: 3/4/2006
Status: offline
quote:

HONESTY..such a simple word..but have you ever thought that ones honesty is always based on perception...so therefore how truly honest can it be, and let me preface that to say in most cases..and as regards to self honesty..even with self honesty we are our own worse critics, so again perception is a factor.So I guess basically you can only be as honest as YOU can at the end of a day and go on..(and I can so feel the flames begin..:0)..)...be well..Tempting


Tempting...you never told Me you were into fire play <g>...
I will second your concept that honesty is situational and relative; that we are responsible for how honest we can be...as well as with Level stating:
quote:

  ".... there's much good there for anyone wishing a more open life... and of course, some people believe total honesty means not giving a shit if others are hurt, but I've found you can be honest without being rude, usually.

I suppose that My point in speaking of honesty actually was more intended towards an examined, an acknowledged life...that when things are recognized, either by yourself or those trusted, that they are taken and looked at. For Me personally, to be who I am as well as fulfilling my 'role' as a Dominant within a relationship, I have to be open, secure enough to see what I am experiencing, what I believe, what I perceive and to look at it directly; if I am not capable of examination, then I do not deny the existence of what's being looked at but rather I admit 'I cannot look at this right now', just as in conversations with those close to Me, I will state that I'm not willing to pursue this at this time...then, I end up looking and trying to see why there is discomfort or unwillingness on My part.

You can use 'honesty' as an excuse for cruelty or hurting others and at times, a full frontal brutal assault is the only way to reach another but this is not needed usually...though I am straightforward, I am responsible for how I share with others and with My approach...

Will go now, just received an email from lotus and to be 'honest' I want to cause pain...

Namaste,
C

_____________________________

AND I AM TOO AN ASSHOLE, I HAVE REFERENCES!!!

"Please, please, please believe me, I really am an asshole. All that Enlightenment and Higher Learning shit was all a ruse."

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RE: Observation: Honesty - 4/22/2006 11:53:08 AM   
crazypatient


Posts: 31
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline 		And some of use pick ourselves apart far more than most others pick us apart...

(in reply to CERCKL)
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RE: Observation: Honesty - 4/22/2006 12:02:58 PM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline 		In regards to honesty in communications:
I think honesty is a misunderstood concept a lot of the time. I see a lot of people mask arrogance or personal attack under the guise of being honest, yet, even when someone is attacking someone else or being arrogant they are being honest, there may be no truth or lotsa truth in what they are saying but when all is said and done they are being honest about one thing, their character. So in that light, taking in the fact that everyone operates to their best of their ability at any given time, everyone is being honest about themselves if we open your eyes and look...I think honesty is a *behind the scenes* attribute within communications.

I think a lot of people see expressing every little thought and feeling and nuance they have as being completely honest, yet I dont see it that way. Example: Say I expressed to Master that I was feeling unfulfilled because I couldnt get the job that I wanted. Now topically I would feel that I was being honest, but its not really whats going on, really the truth is, I am not satisified with enjoying the moment as it is, I'm not being present, I'm placing my happiness on something that doesnt exist right now..the more honest thing to say would be, "Master I'm not present right now". So when we express our every little thought and feeling, what level of honesty are we communicating with the world? Yet at the same time, given that scenario, I would be being completely honest to the level of my ability to know myself.

In regards to honesty with self:
I think that takes a lot of hard personal work. It really is about being conscious. Its not till we can be honest with ourselves that we can truely get to know ourselves and are capable of having effective, meaningful relationships with anyone.


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Different Strokes for Different Folks

"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

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RE: Observation: Honesty - 4/22/2006 12:04:21 PM   
MrMister


Posts: 272
Joined: 3/6/2005
Status: offline 		Dishonesty comes easily, especially when complete truthfulness could cost us something, make us uncomfortable, or put us in an unfavorable light. Dishonest communication certainly hinders relationships. For if we lie to others, we begin to decieve ourselves thus begin building a wall of self-destruction. And by decieving yourself, you will alienate yourself and will most assuredly lose credibility in all your relationships. In the long run, honesty wins out.

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RE: Observation: Honesty - 4/22/2006 12:29:53 PM   
truesub4u


Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline 		Honestly... right up front.... I expect SOME honesty.... being married...... running from law.... don't care why.. just are you? The rest will fall where and when it should... if it's to be. When I ask a question.... I want an answer... would prefer it to be an honest one... not what one would think I want to hear.  Always been a believer... if you're not sure you want to know the answer... don't ask the question.  People know about you.... only what you tell them. (Unless someone decides to do background checks on you) but I feel of one does that... there's no trust and you've given them reason NOT to trust you and be honest. I'm not going to tell someone every little thing there is to know about me............ Not right from the start...... probably not ever. There's times things need to come out... and there's time somethings never not need to come out.  As one said... we're our own worse critics when it comes to honesty........ So why be shocked when someone else isn't totally honest right up front? 

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RE: Observation: Honesty - 4/22/2006 12:32:04 PM   
Areflectionofyou


Posts: 258
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline 		Sir...i wish you the best and hope things work out for you...

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RE: Observation: Honesty - 4/22/2006 1:39:40 PM   
Dustyn


Posts: 1044
Joined: 4/5/2006
Status: offline 		I'd much rather be hit in the balls with the truth than be caressed on the cheek with a lie.

Yeah, the truth is rarely pretty, a sop of the pride or simple to accept.  But the truth is what actually is, not the lie.  I'll shoot straight and blunt with anyone that's directly in my life.  Why?  Because I believe that they are doing so with me.  I've never flat out lied to anyone I give a rat's ass about.  If you do something stupid, I'll put a big, flashing neon sign over it to point it out to you.  Granted, I will also help you fix what got screwed up if you ask, too.

Honesty is also a matter of trust.  But that's something for another time.

- Dustyn


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Mother is the name for God on the lips and hearts of all children.

Murderer?! Murderer! Let me tell you something about murder. It's fun; it's easy; you gonna learn ALL about it. - Tin Tin

Can you be more amusing?

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RE: Observation: Honesty - 4/22/2006 2:05:19 PM   
Phoenixandnika


Posts: 748
Joined: 4/22/2005
From: Aberdeen Maryland
Status: offline 		 Honesty is one of the MOST important emotional needs in any relationship. While its counter part dishonesty is one of the most destructive things in a relationship. When someone we are involved with weather being a friend, lover, spouse, Dominate, submissive lies to us we put up walls and that in turns destroys any love or trust that was there.

Honesty is important in any relationship. How can your partner begin to know you if you are not honest? I believe in being radically honest with those in my life weather they are friends, my Master or someone I simply deal with on any level. I believe in telling them how I feel, what I think about situations that may arise, likes or dislikes in regards to different situations, and even my past in regards to given situations.

I mean how can anyone I deal with on any level be able to work out an issue that may arise if I am not honest and up front. How can conflicts be resolved or even avoided if I lie even by omission?

Dishonesty may seem like a wonderful short-term solution to a relationship problem however if you lie long enough you yourself may begin to believe your own lies.


Food for thought.
If someone believes something to be the truth- are they then lying or being dishonest?

If three people are all party to the same situation but have different perceptions on what happened are they lying or not?



Nika{Phoenix}









< Message edited by Phoenixandnika -- 4/22/2006 2:06:57 PM >

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RE: Observation: Honesty - 4/22/2006 2:55:19 PM   
Alphawolf50


Posts: 2
Joined: 8/3/2004
Status: offline 		Honesty counts but from both sides. One said kick them to curb for not saying they were married. But the person saying that never mentioned she was married to. So honesty must be both ways.

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