RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe

RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (Full Version)

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luckydawg -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/15/2010 2:36:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mcbride quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel For instance a god who is guaranteed to answer your prayers as claimed by Luke 11:9-10 doesn't exist. No faith required we not only can but have tested for that. Has he, now. I wouldn't think anyone familiar with, or supportive of, science would be so limited in their thinking. Luke 11:9-10 says ask and you'll receive. Luke doesn't say it'll show up by Fedex tomorrow. This little planet is not all there is, by anyone's thinking. Even more blinkered is a complete to failure to understand that God, by definition, even if you don't believe, may not be limited by any one person's provincial views of time and space in this tiny, remote neighbourhood. All that's proven is that Fedex didn't arrive. Why one would open a religious text about a God's power to reward people in the next life, and then expect God to expedite a promise strictly in the confines of this planet, at this time, in a way that some guy can see, is a bit silly, and doesn't do science any favours, whether or not you have any faith, but then, maybe science isn't actually the cause or motivation for thinking that fuzzy. This whole editing for content is really getting old. Luke 11:9-10 does not existin a vacume isolated from all meaning. If you read the chapter (and especially the next sentance it is very clear that in no way does it mean you can get anything you want if you pray. "9"So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. 11"Which of you fathers, if your son asks for[f] a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"" It is clearly talking about asking for the Holy Spirit. Why do rational athiests have to resort to such weak tricks as trimming quotes for content in order to have a point?

Kirata -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/15/2010 7:28:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel What about the prayers that it will show up by Fedex tomorrow? It's not clear to me whether you are pointing out that it is foolish to read the Bible literally, and that any notion of God arrived at by doing so is certain to be false, or whether you are attempting to base a broader argument against belief in God on a literal reading of Bible passages. K.

mcbride -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/15/2010 8:30:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: taleon Sure, I understand that an omnipotent God is able to replace grief with joy, but such far-fetched solutions to fairly simply problems don't add to the credibility of its existence. Look at the options we have: - Nobody is answering prayers. - Someone is answering the prayers, but in a way that is impossible for the rest of us to measure or to detect. I don't think that I'm being unreasonable, if I find the first option to be far more likely. If you put God outside the reach of any test, then indeed, it is impossible to disprove its existence. Also, postulating such a God doesn't help us in any meaningful way. Far-fetched? On the contrary. If someone created the universe, then it's not only reasonable but probable. The logic of the notion that you can test God does make me smile, from a science standpoint. And of course it's impossible to disprove, but the postulation -- simply that God might be a tad more powerful than we are -- points out the absurdity of someone claiming that the Luke passage disproves anything, and that helps anyone who's open-minded on the question. Whatever people believe, for or against, it amazes me that anyone tries to put forward claims based on the notion that God must be restricted to the same tiny toolkit that we have.

GotSteel -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/15/2010 8:55:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata It's not clear to me whether you are pointing out that it is foolish to read the Bible literally, and that any notion of God arrived at by doing so is certain to be false, or whether you are attempting to base a broader argument against belief in God on a literal reading of Bible passages. I'm claiming even less than that first idea. I'm claiming that some concepts of god are disprovable and therefore how Icarys defines God is potentially important to the conversation.

GotSteel -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/15/2010 9:00:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydawg Why do rational athiests have to resort to such weak tricks as trimming quotes for content in order to have a point? Here you are begging the question, like I said: please stop. quote: ORIGINAL: luckydawg It is clearly talking about asking for the Holy Spirit. What is the Holy Spirit? What does it do? Does it heal?

GotSteel -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/15/2010 9:06:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mcbride My point was it's silly to claim there's any scientific basis to conclude those prayers go unanswered, that someone thinks it's somehow disproved, just because we can't see more. Your idea works well for ambiguous prayers and not at all for unambiguous prayers. But either way this conversation is a side track from the point I was making. There are a number of different concepts of god; clearly with the amount you've had to explain to me how god works, we are talking about different concepts of god and whether or not god can be disproven depends on which concept of god we use. Which is the point I was trying to make.

mcbride -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/15/2010 9:47:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: mcbride My point was it's silly to claim there's any scientific basis to conclude those prayers go unanswered, that someone thinks it's somehow disproved, just because we can't see more. Your idea works well for ambiguous prayers and not at all for unambiguous prayers. But either way this conversation is a side track from the point I was making. There are a number of different concepts of god; clearly with the amount you've had to explain to me how god works, we are talking about different concepts of god and whether or not god can be disproven depends on which concept of god we use. Which is the point I was trying to make. Forgive me, but that's illogical. Ambiguous or not makes no difference to God's capabilities compared to ours: it only demonstrates that you and I can't see everything. Alas, you haven't disproved a thing, which is the point you actually attempted, unless the concept of god you were hoping to set up to disprove involves some guy with no more powers than the rest of us. But you quoted Luke, so that's a pretty specific God.

GotSteel -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/15/2010 11:43:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mcbride Forgive me, but that's illogical. I don't think illogical means what you think it means. quote: ORIGINAL: mcbride Ambiguous or not makes no difference to God's capabilities compared to ours: it only demonstrates that you and I can't see everything. Of course we can't see everything that's the whole point of crafting an unambiguous prayer, so that we don't have to. quote: ORIGINAL: mcbride Alas, you haven't disproved a thing, which is the point you actually attempted, unless the concept of god you were hoping to set up to disprove involves some guy with no more powers than the rest of us. I don't think jumping from the concept of a god I was proposing to "no more powers than the rest of us" is valid. There are however a number of concepts of god who are no more powerful or even less powerful than the rest of us. quote: ORIGINAL: mcbride But you quoted Luke, so that's a pretty specific God. The existence of tens if not hundreds of thousands of denominations disagrees with you.

luckydawg -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/15/2010 12:43:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: luckydawg Why do rational athiests have to resort to such weak tricks as trimming quotes for content in order to have a point? Here you are begging the question, like I said: please stop. quote: ORIGINAL: luckydawg It is clearly talking about asking for the Holy Spirit. What is the Holy Spirit? What does it do? Does it heal? and I asked you to stop editing quotes for Content, and answering questions with questions. But you are free to continue. and I will keep pointing it out. and others can judge.

mcbride -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/15/2010 4:38:59 PM)
Wow. Such scenic detours you take! If you'd rather keep hiding behind all that semantic smoke than try to deal with the simple fact that the God you posted about is likely to have more abilities than you, so be it. Readers, poor buggers, will see that. But: -Unambiguous prayers make no difference to the high probability that you can't see everything God is doing. -"The existence of tens if not hundreds of thousands of denominations" who see Luke as scripture may have some differing theology, but none of them think God is some guy who can't do anything more than you or I could do. -Those gods "who are no more powerful or even less powerful than the rest of us" have nothing to do with Luke, whom you cited. You chose your ground here, so I'm quite happy to point folks back to it. -'Illogical' hasn't changed its meaning since this morning.

GotSteel -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/15/2010 10:13:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydawg and I asked you to stop editing quotes for Content, Bullshit. quote: ORIGINAL: luckydawg and answering questions with questions. But you are free to continue. and I will keep pointing it out. and others can judge. I'm calling bullshit on this as well, this wasn't a question you were asking me it was yet another dishonest attack: quote: ORIGINAL: luckydawg Why do rational athiests have to resort to such weak tricks as trimming quotes for content in order to have a point? I really enjoy debating but that isn't what's been happening with you for some time now. Since you keep spouting crap like the above you might as well have that conversation with yourself, welcome to my blocked list.

mcbride -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/15/2010 10:40:48 PM)
edited for a whoopsie.

Kirata -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/15/2010 10:42:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata It's not clear to me whether you are pointing out that it is foolish to read the Bible literally, and that any notion of God arrived at by doing so is certain to be false, or whether you are attempting to base a broader argument against belief in God on a literal reading of Bible passages. I'm claiming even less than that first idea. I'm claiming that some concepts of god are disprovable and therefore how Icarys defines God is potentially important to the conversation. Well a bit earlier in the thread you said, "a god who is guaranteed to answer your prayers as claimed by Luke 11:9-10 doesn't exist." You weren't talking about Icarys' concept of God there, you were talking about Luke's. So, was that statement disposing of the concept of God found in Luke? Because you could have said, "we know that this particular attribute of God is not true." K.

wittynamehere -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/15/2010 10:51:00 PM)
FR Interesting how this thread is full of people who haven't a clue what they're talking about, don't want to change that, and still claim that they somehow know "god(s) created the universe".

mcbride -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/15/2010 11:02:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wittynamehere Interesting how this thread is full of people who haven't a clue what they're talking about, don't want to change that, and still claim that they somehow know "god(s) created the universe". Really? Who said that? I suppose I oughta ask for divine help in getting you to return to the thread to answer. [:D]

Kirata -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/15/2010 11:55:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: luckydawg It is clearly talking about asking for the Holy Spirit. What is the Holy Spirit? What does it do? Does it heal? Let's not pass quite so fast over the fact that you're being called on bullshit. You cited Luke 11:9-10 and falsely claimed that it guaranteed an answer to prayer. You are being informed that this text is about asking for the spirit of God to dwell within your heart, not about intercessory prayer. Luke 11:13 - If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? All clear now? Carry on... K.

GotSteel -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/16/2010 5:52:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata You weren't talking about Icarys' concept of God there Correct, it was an example of a concept of god I brought up in order to back up my position that the concept of god he was referring to by the use of that word could be relevant. quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata you were talking about Luke's. So, was that statement disposing of the concept of God found in Luke? O.K. I'll bite, no it wasn't. quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata Because you could have said, "we know that this particular attribute of God is not true." Granted.

GotSteel -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/16/2010 6:58:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mcbride Wow. Such scenic detours you take! If you'd rather keep hiding behind all that semantic smoke than try to deal with the simple fact that the God you posted about is likely to have more abilities than you, so be it. Readers, poor buggers, will see that. 1.Woah you're the one who added the "no more powers than the rest of us". As I pointed out last post it wasn't valid for you to do that. You certainly don't get to pretend that's part of the example I made and then criticize me for it. 2. You walked into a semantic discussion that Icarys and I were having and are complaining about it being semantic.....seriously. quote: ORIGINAL: mcbride -Unambiguous prayers make no difference to the high probability that you can't see everything God is doing. The whole point of an unambiguous prayer is so that one doesn't need to see everything God is doing, just see if people are receiving what they asked. Yes, the medical studies on prayer wouldn't discount for instance a god who would answer a request for a fish with a snake, but that's a different concept of god then I was talking about. quote: ORIGINAL: mcbride -"The existence of tens if not hundreds of thousands of denominations" who see Luke as scripture may have some differing theology, but none of them think God is some guy who can't do anything more than you or I could do. I brought up the number of denominations to point out that "specific" wasn't remotely as specific as use of that word would normally make people think. However, I think the Raelians would count for what you're asking. They think god was just some alien guys. quote: ORIGINAL: mcbride -Those gods "who are no more powerful or even less powerful than the rest of us" have nothing to do with Luke, whom you cited. You chose your ground here, so I'm quite happy to point folks back to it. I mentioned those as other concepts of god, which also exist, not as having to do with Luke 11. However, since we are talking about that what about the Raelians? It's my understanding that they think Elohim was a race of aliens who were able to accomplish the supernatural feats in the Bible not because they have powers or abilities we don't but because they had access to advanced technology. quote: ORIGINAL: mcbride -'Illogical' hasn't changed its meaning since this morning. While clearly you think I'm wrong, that's different than me being illogical. Show me where I've contradicted the principles of logic or been illogical according to any other accepted definition of the term.

luckydawg -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/16/2010 2:38:58 PM)
By editing the quote from Luke in order to pretend it means something different than it clearly means, you have abandoned any pretense of using logic.

mcbride -> RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe (9/17/2010 2:55:33 PM)
Raelians? Fishes and snakes?? Whaaaa...? Listen, Steel, the variety and sheer volume of those dodges is impressive, but you made a simple claim about the God of Luke not existing because you thought prayers go unanswered, and I pointed out why you and I don't know if they're answered or not. Now people can read and decide for themselves. I'm good with that. Let's have mercy on them.

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