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HELP: Conversion from Vanilla wife to submissive - 9/13/2010 6:06:11 PM   
MrAvogadro


Posts: 7
Joined: 9/13/2010
Status: offline 		Long story short, I've been married for a year and change, I've always been into BDSM although rarely acted on my impulses.  Anyway, I recently told my wife (who is vanilla) about my interest, and the conversation deteriorated quickly.

I'd be interested to talk to any women who were at one time vanilla, or they believed themselves to be, and found their way to being submissive.  What was the trigger, what was effective in the transition, what can I do to help her understand D/s.  She thinks I just want to tie her up and beat her.

BDSM chat and porn are no longer doing it for me and I feel like I'm at a bit of a cross roads.  Any help would be appreciated.
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: HELP: Conversion from Vanilla wife to submissive - 9/13/2010 6:12:14 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		For me there was no trigger.

I have always been a submissive personality. It's a part of who I am. I have always been attracted to dominant personality men. Any relationships I've ever had were with dominant personality men. I also grew up in a culture where men were the head of the household, the family leaders, the Godheads so for me it's pretty natural and instinctive.

I would say that if your wife has no desire to be submissive then there's not much you can do to change that.

(in reply to MrAvogadro)
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RE: HELP: Conversion from Vanilla wife to submissive - 9/13/2010 7:35:24 PM   
January


Posts: 891
Joined: 4/17/2004
Status: offline 		Avogadro,

You are pulling a bait and switch here. Married only a year, and now you want to change the terms of the relationship? Did you just give your poor wife a list of kink demands? Subtlety, empathy and enormous patience is required to pull off a change from vanilla to kink.

Asking CM about submissive "triggers" indicates you won't be able to do it. Good luck, anyway.

January



_____________________________

[link: http://www.bookstrand.com/miss-you-sir] Miss You, Sir by January Rowe is available from Siren now! It's my latest smokin' hot bdsm romance.[/link]




(in reply to MrAvogadro)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: HELP: Conversion from Vanilla wife to submissive - 9/13/2010 7:44:01 PM   
Ghostdawg


Posts: 1
Joined: 6/29/2009
Status: offline 		how did i get here


(in reply to January)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: HELP: Conversion from Vanilla wife to submissive - 9/13/2010 7:46:44 PM   
junecleaver


Posts: 1145
Joined: 4/6/2005
Status: offline 		You hid an important need from your wife for a year and some change.  Actually, you say you've always been into BDSM so it's longer than just the marriage.

You've been cybering and watching porn...probably behind her back.  I don't expect your transition to be smooth and I definitely don't expect it to have a 'aha!' moment like a submissive trigger.  It is nice to see that you want to continue forward with the woman you married though.

Do you want to to do more to your wife than tie her up and beat her?  I mean...how did you explain it?  What did you focus on? 

I'm sure people will come along and cite lots of great books.  All I will say is that your attitude towards your wife in revealing all of this is important.  Don't be demanding.  Because it sounds (don't know you so really who's to say?) like a lot of this is about meeting *your* needs and not even contemplating your wife's.


_____________________________


"No one will ever win the battle of the sexes; there's too much fraternizing with the enemy. "
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(in reply to MrAvogadro)
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RE: HELP: Conversion from Vanilla wife to submissive - 9/13/2010 7:48:48 PM   
peppermint


Posts: 5169
Joined: 10/18/2005
From: Montana
Status: offline 		As I just wrote on another thread....YOU chose your wife.  You knew she wasn't into kink yet you still married her.  No one can magically make her what she is not, nor should anyone attempt to make her what she does not wish to be. 

In other words you can not make her what she is not. 

(in reply to MrAvogadro)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: HELP: Conversion from Vanilla wife to submissive - 9/13/2010 7:49:47 PM   
poise


Posts: 9509
Joined: 7/3/2010
Status: offline 		I wouldn't go so far as to say what you are hoping to experience with your wife is impossible.
There are quite a few women on this site that in fact claim to have discovered/accepted thier
true submissive spirit at a much later stage in thier lives. You already have the positive going for you in
that she loves you and has made a lifelong commitment to you. Thats a great foundation from which to build on.
There are an abundance of previous threads dedicated to topics such as this. Use the Search feature in
the upper right hand corner for further reading/ideas. Best of luck to you both.

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(in reply to January)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: HELP: Conversion from Vanilla wife to submissive - 9/13/2010 8:03:10 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Why does she have to change? Why don't you?

You may be wired for this but you married her while lying to her. It would have been much more honest to talk about all this prior to the marriage, prior to the relationship getting anything near that deep.

So now you tell her that you've been lying to her for years, and yet she should trust you more, not less. Even though you haven't earned this deeper trust.

If you want to give her a chance to learn about it, get her When Someone You Love is Kinky. Allow her to decide if she has any interest in this, and if so, is it with you.


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Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to poise)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: HELP: Conversion from Vanilla wife to submissive - 9/13/2010 8:33:29 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Could anyone "trigger" you to be vanilla, or a submissive for that matter? Ask yourself that, and then think about what you expect from your wife.



_____________________________

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(in reply to MrAvogadro)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: HELP: Conversion from Vanilla wife to submissive - 9/13/2010 8:35:48 PM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline 		I have no sympathy whatsoever for the OP. If you knew you were into BDSM for a long time before you married your wife, you owed it to her to tell her about your desires prior to the marriage.

Now you have a year long marriage based on an omission. Sorry, unless she is interested in being submissive, you are shit out of luck.

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: HELP: Conversion from Vanilla wife to submissive - 9/13/2010 9:44:09 PM   
MrAvogadro


Posts: 7
Joined: 9/13/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

I have no sympathy whatsoever for the OP. If you knew you were into BDSM for a long time before you married your wife, you owed it to her to tell her about your desires prior to the marriage.

Now you have a year long marriage based on an omission. Sorry, unless she is interested in being submissive, you are shit out of luck.


To those who responded to my question about helping my wife understand D/s, thank you, the title mentioned sounds interesting and I'll look into it.  To those who think I asked for sympathy, lied to my wife, baited and switched, perhaps you'd like to know more about the relationship before judging?

For one, this is not the FIRST time I've mentioned these desires and interests.  In fact, we had discussed them several times before marriage during a period of time that my wife suffered from vaginismus...  that period goes on today.  So, we have not had vaginal intercourse in years.  So, when you say I am lying to her...  consider that we discussed all this stuff long before we were married and that our relationship at the moment does not have a strong sexual component.  We agreed that we would deal with the sex stuff when her vaginismus subsided...  it hasn't.

Still, we loved each other and made a commitment to each other.  And I have no interest in breaking that commitment now, or in the future.  In fact, my question (finding ways to explain D/s to my wife) should indicate that I am trying to find a way to explore my interests within our marriage.  And no, I did not tell her I wanted to tie her up and beat her.  In fact, I am not a sadist, and really don't want to beat her at all.  I am much more interested in the D/s aspects, which I think are perhaps more difficult for a vanilla to understand.

Yes, it would be great if all people could be matched on every single dimension of compatability in a marriage.  I'll happily take being married to my best friend and trying to figure out the intimacy instead of being married to someone I dislike despite the sex being great.

If anyone else actually has ideas or advice that i can use in explaining my feelings to my wife, instead of telling me it's hopeless or that you have no sympathy for me, I'd be thrilled to listen.




< Message edited by MrAvogadro -- 9/13/2010 9:45:58 PM >

(in reply to sexyred1)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: HELP: Conversion from Vanilla wife to submissive - 9/13/2010 10:15:56 PM   
peppermint


Posts: 5169
Joined: 10/18/2005
From: Montana
Status: offline 		Something is very wrong here.  You say she is your best friend.  You say you have been patiently waiting for her medical problems to ease so that the two of you can have a sex life.  Yet, you wish to change your best friend.  Seems to me if you change her you change the very things that made her your best friend.  

(in reply to MrAvogadro)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: HELP: Conversion from Vanilla wife to submissive - 9/13/2010 10:22:03 PM   
weaselwelder


Posts: 72
Joined: 6/22/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrAvogadro

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

I have no sympathy whatsoever for the OP. If you knew you were into BDSM for a long time before you married your wife, you owed it to her to tell her about your desires prior to the marriage.

Now you have a year long marriage based on an omission. Sorry, unless she is interested in being submissive, you are shit out of luck.


To those who responded to my question about helping my wife understand D/s, thank you, the title mentioned sounds interesting and I'll look into it.  To those who think I asked for sympathy, lied to my wife, baited and switched, perhaps you'd like to know more about the relationship before judging?

For one, this is not the FIRST time I've mentioned these desires and interests.  In fact, we had discussed them several times before marriage during a period of time that my wife suffered from vaginismus...  that period goes on today.  So, we have not had vaginal intercourse in years.  So, when you say I am lying to her...  consider that we discussed all this stuff long before we were married and that our relationship at the moment does not have a strong sexual component.  We agreed that we would deal with the sex stuff when her vaginismus subsided...  it hasn't.

Still, we loved each other and made a commitment to each other.  And I have no interest in breaking that commitment now, or in the future.  In fact, my question (finding ways to explain D/s to my wife) should indicate that I am trying to find a way to explore my interests within our marriage.  And no, I did not tell her I wanted to tie her up and beat her.  In fact, I am not a sadist, and really don't want to beat her at all.  I am much more interested in the D/s aspects, which I think are perhaps more difficult for a vanilla to understand.

Yes, it would be great if all people could be matched on every single dimension of compatability in a marriage.  I'll happily take being married to my best friend and trying to figure out the intimacy instead of being married to someone I dislike despite the sex being great.

If anyone else actually has ideas or advice that i can use in explaining my feelings to my wife, instead of telling me it's hopeless or that you have no sympathy for me, I'd be thrilled to listen.




Honestly, neither her medical problems nor your misplaced anger at us does any good. In short, I only have one piece of advice for any one on here:

TALK TO YOUR SIGNIFICANT OTHER. ALSO, LISTEN TO YOUR SIGNIFICANT OTHER.

That's all there is to it. It will be the hardest thing you will ever do, if you manage it. Stay calm. talk to her. Explain, calmly and gently, what you want. Listen and accept what she says.

Then make a decision.

There is no way to "train" or "convert" someone into a submissive or a dominant. You need to accept that.

Honestly though, the anger I'm reading off of you because some complete strangers on here answered your topic question of "How can I convert my Vanilla wife to submissive" with a frank "no" makes me suspect that you'll have a hard time staying calm when your wife, who I assume you have a strong emotional attachment to, tells you to go spank yourself if you need it so badly.

(in reply to MrAvogadro)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: HELP: Conversion from Vanilla wife to submissive - 9/13/2010 11:34:22 PM   
dreamerdreaming


Posts: 2839
Status: offline 		OP, there's not much hope of her understanding your needs as anything more than sexually motivated. This is because SHE IS VANILLA.

Because SHE IS VANILLA, on a very deep, profound level she does not understand about you. You could try to explain if its more than just a sex thing, to you- and play up that angle. There are lots of ways she could be submissive to you, that don't involve sex. Tons and tons of ways. But if she doesn't have a natural submissive bent, then who's to say she wouldn't rather dom you- if she had to stop being herself (VANILLA)?!

I think you should turn completely vanilla for her. Do that for five or ten years, and then it'll be her turn. 
 
In short: you either love her for who she really is, or you love who you wish she were . If you love her for who she really is (SHE IS VANILLA), then enjoy that. Wanting someone to be something they're not, is a dead-end. If I were her, I'd be pissed. It is extremely rude and presumptuous of you, to want to try to change her into what you want her to be- instead of wanting to help her become more who she wants to be.



_____________________________

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(in reply to MrAvogadro)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: HELP: Conversion from Vanilla wife to submissive - 9/14/2010 1:12:48 AM   
MistressRosalyn


Posts: 908
Joined: 8/16/2009
Status: offline 		OK, having thought about this a bit, I'm going to play Devil's advocate here. Without strongly addressing the issue of your wife's vaginismus, (which, BTW, seems to have a good success rate of being cured by treatments with a form of Botox) let's address the original issue, which is trying to get your spouse to open themselves to other possible forms of fun 'n games in the bedroom and other places.

It feels as though people here are so ready to take up the banner of, "She's Vanilla, get over it" that they are forgetting that once upon a time, we were all "vanilla virgins" so to speak. As an 18 year old, I was doing a lot of cajoling of boyfriends trying to get them interested in tying me up. Sometimes it succeeded, sometimes it didn't.

Fast forward to about 6 years ago. I finally found the best vanilla lover ever, but he had NEVER thought of himself as one of "those people".  In my desire for something extra I gradually introduced him to the idea of adding bondage to our repertoire. I started by making him lie face down with  his arms outstretched, forbidding him to touch me, even though he was not restrained. From there, I used all manner of soft, silky/feathery/leathery things on his back and ass, then I made him flip over and I ended it with an erotic massage then I went for a horsey ride. He absolutely loved it.

Now that he trusted me, the next time I used silk scarves as blindfolds and devices to secure him to the bed, and I pushed a limit or two. The next time, I pushed even more. Remember, this was a 57 year old VANILLA man, who would never dream of doing kinky things! As I am a bit switchy, he decided that he wanted to give me the same pleasures that he had enjoyed...now that he knew how things felt! I am pleased to report that he was a fast learner.

I could go on and on, but the point is, never say never.
OP, if I were you, I would just offer to give her a sensual massage, with no restraints (and no expectations of culmination) to start. Then perhaps throw in a blindfold, and then after a while, (months?) restraints. If you love her, and you truly want to bring her into understanding what you want, you must be willing to gentle her along, and take as much time as SHE needs to get used to it.

I am going to assume that she is undergoing treatment for the vaginismus, and here's a big point. If her condition stems from any abuse, you are going to be VERY hard pressed to get her to surrender control of any sort. If you do have some sexual relations, and if she is orgasmic with you assisting her, then your path may be easier.

Frankly, her condition changes many aspects of this. I know that you may truly be just interested in her submitting to you, whether sexually or not, but if there are past issues, this may be an impossible dream.

Finally, if she doesn't respond, and/or she isn't at all willing to try something new, then you have a hard choice to make. Either live in a vanilla marriage, or divorce and find someone more sexually compatible.

I wish you the best of luck.



_____________________________

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(in reply to dreamerdreaming)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: HELP: Conversion from Vanilla wife to submissive - 9/14/2010 2:10:45 AM   
ranja


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline 		What a lot of useless bad attitude advice you got on this thread op,

i do not know what vaginismus is but i do know that people can have a lot of sexy time without fucking
and also most people i know are quite kinky really, so i would say there is a good chance that you can work things out

Find out what she likes... find out where on her skin she likes being touched best (this changes from hour to hour or even quicker with most women)
Pay her little uninmportant compliments and watch how she responds
Like MistressRosalyn says; maybe start with sensual massages
softly softly spanking.... or does your woman like her feet caressing?

What ever you do, it is obvious that you have to push your wife (but somehow you have to do this without being pushy) as she will be understandably upset and sexually hampered with this blasted vaginismus,
and you have to persevere otherwise you two might find yourself with no sex-life whatsoever and that is just totally naf... so you have your work cut out for you really
try to keep a sense of humour about it... make her laugh

sometimes it helps to make a sex date, and strictly agree neither will cancel this unless one of you is dieing... she has to agree on a sex date with you as she is your wife... she has obligations to you sexually, she made this commitment when she married you
understand that sexual things might be quite awkward between you at first, don't let that put either of you off though, try to let her see the humour in the mishaps, tell her she is wonderful.

For someone who has been turned off of sex it can be very hard to get started again... it is understandable that the thought of BDSM would frighten her... don't frighten her... show her very gently how wonderful it is to have sex without pressure or fucking
manipulate her

all the best and good luck

(in reply to MistressRosalyn)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: HELP: Conversion from Vanilla wife to submissive - 9/14/2010 2:29:18 AM   
SpiritedRadiance


Posts: 1341
Joined: 3/3/2010
Status: offline
Overview Vaginismus is an involuntary spasm of the muscles surrounding the vagina. The spasms close the vagina..


Women with varying degrees of vaginismus often develop anxiety regarding sexual intercourse. The condition causes penetration to be difficult and painful, or even impossible. However, this does not mean the woman cannot become sexually aroused. Many women may have orgasms when the clitoris is stimulated.


SO op you cant shove your dick in her... how about going at her orally? Get her all stimulated and hold her hips down or her thighs wide.

a) shes not obligated to fuck you.
b) shes not obligated to be your submissive your fuck toy or your slave.
c) she might just not be kinky it HAPPENS

HOWEVER if you connect some force like holding her down while you drive her wild ........ and connect in her brain some bondage =orgasm she might be more likely to try and go forth into this grand whatever fuck...

HOWEVER she might hate it... and if she says no you have to understand accept and drop it... OR try to become vanilla for her ....


_____________________________

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(in reply to ranja)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: HELP: Conversion from Vanilla wife to submissive - 9/14/2010 3:28:05 AM   
mstrjx


Posts: 2045
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		For what it's worth. One guy's experience similar to yours.

Before my first marriage, I had had inclinations that I would turn out to be a little more than kinky. I had turned those inclinations into a few material things - bondage videos, handcuffs, rope, etc (no floggers or such). A couple of boxes worth.

My ex-wife-to-be found my stash (before we were married) and confronted me with it. We talked about it, perhaps not as intelligently as I could speak to the subject today, and she was horrified. The closest we got to her participation was for me to be a bondage bottom ONCE. Even that she hated, and I don't recall her thinking she wanted to try being the bottom.

She gave me an ultimatum. Her, or my interests. I made my choice with eyes open. I tried to commit to her, not myself.

We got married, and I tried to shut out my fantasies. I guess she sensed it wasn't working and we were divorced 13 months after getting married. (It didn't drag on years and years.) I was bitter about her choice to divorce me for about a week or so until I realized I would ultimately be better off.

That is when I committed myself to being who and what I am today. I'm glad I've been able to be 'me' since then.

Jeff

_____________________________

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(in reply to SpiritedRadiance)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: HELP: Conversion from Vanilla wife to submissive - 9/14/2010 4:28:01 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Going on the assumption (which I don't believe) that he really is solely focused on a d/s relationship without any kink, then he has to earn her trust in his judgments. And he's already shown faulty judgment. He's mentioned it several times over the years but didn't make it clear to her that he requires this in a relationship. So she was brought to believe it was a hobby and not that important. Now he's saying no, that isn't the case, he simply didn't make it clear because he wanted her to marry him regardless. But now he's saying it isn't regardless, it is essential to his happiness.

Again op, you misled her. Now you're demanding she change. And you know she isn't interested in this. You know she wants a say in her life, in her decisions, yet you're demanding the decision making without having proved yourself vastly superior at them.

You want to control all the money? Then you need to have proven yourself a superb money manager. Better clear up that credit card debt first. And so on.


_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to mstrjx)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: HELP: Conversion from Vanilla wife to submissive - 9/14/2010 5:46:51 AM   
January


Posts: 891
Joined: 4/17/2004
Status: offline
quote:

What a lot of useless bad attitude advice you got on this thread op,


Yet YOU presume to give advice when you don't even know what vaginismus is? And evidently don't care? Good lord, ranja! Does your superiority even allow you to understand other people's posts? You have a few decent ideas, dear, but they are really just embellishing what other people have already posted.

OP, being obsessed with BDSM porn isn't a good way to understand what realistic D/s is. Neither is it a sign of a deep, loving relationship with your "best friend".

And forcing your wife to be sub is hardly noble, just because that means you're trying to stay within your marriage. As I've said many times in many posts before, if you crudely approach vanilla conversion as an entitlement, you are doomed. There is no magic word.

Your irritation with us for not providing that quick fix is revealing.

January





< Message edited by January -- 9/14/2010 5:49:04 AM >

_____________________________

[link: http://www.bookstrand.com/miss-you-sir] Miss You, Sir by January Rowe is available from Siren now! It's my latest smokin' hot bdsm romance.[/link]




(in reply to ranja)
Profile   Post #: 20
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