RE: vaccines don't cause autism, they just result in autism

RE: vaccines don't cause autism, they just result in autism (Full Version)

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Moonhead -> RE: vaccines don't cause autism, they just result in autism (9/15/2010 12:49:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WyldHrt quote: There was a proven link followed by an attempted cover-up. A reporter who heard the conflicting evidence compared the autism rate among the amish (they don't have their kids vaccinated) to the autism rate among non-amish. The children who did have it were adopted after receiving vaccines. Autism is extremely rare among the amish. You really have to be kidding with this. You (and this reporter, apparently) picked out one difference in a lifestyle that is completely different from most, and have determined that this one thing is the factor in the different rate of autism?? It is just as likely that Amish children have less autism because they are not exposed to electric lights and other electronic devices; are exposed to far less air pollution from cars, trucks, farm equipment; are exposed to far fewer preservatives in food (as are their parents at the time of conception)... hell, I could do this all day. The fact that none of these other differences fits your agenda does not make them any less likely to be the real cause. This supposed 'cover up' is more likely the fact that those familiar with the scientific method laughed the reporter who came up with this bunk right out of the room. ETA- Damn, Aqua beat me to it! [8D] To reiterate an obvious point you've missed: the Amish (as one of those weird cults) tend to have kids a lot younger than most of the middle management sorts who run crying for a lawyer when the kid they had in their thirties is diagnosed as autistic. Given their abhorrence of everything that's happened since the industrial revolution, do they have any other sources of entertainment besides fucking?

AquaticSub -> RE: vaccines don't cause autism, they just result in autism (9/15/2010 12:51:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bootstraps Evidence of Harm by David Kirby is a good read. Also Dan Olmstead http://www.whale.to/vaccine/olmsted.html Many people (just like with many issues) until its in their face and affects them they won't listen until they "feel it" for themselves And many people falsely assume that people who disagree with them haven't "felt" the issue at hand.

AquaticSub -> RE: vaccines don't cause autism, they just result in autism (9/15/2010 12:53:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead To reiterate an obvious point you've missed: the Amish (as one of those weird cults) tend to have kids a lot younger than most of the middle management sorts who run crying for a lawyer when the kid they had in their thirties is diagnosed as autistic. Given their abhorrence of everything that's happened since the industrial revolution, do they have any other sources of entertainment besides fucking? Also an excellent point. It's a fact that a woman uses her "best" eggs first. The later in life she waits to have children, the higher the risk of the child having some sort of condition. Is it possible that it's a gasp combination of a factors and not a big evil conspiracy? Here: A nifty source - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/7079641/Women-lose-90-per-cent-of-eggs-by-30.html quote: As the body chooses the best eggs from the reserve, the likelihood is that the quality of the eggs will suffer as you get older increasing the difficulty of conception and the risk of an unhealthy baby.

Moonhead -> RE: vaccines don't cause autism, they just result in autism (9/15/2010 12:58:43 PM)
The fact that what gets counted as autism these days covers far more ground than it did thirty years ago is another factor the "Vaccination? Nein, danke!" seem to be completely oblivious to as well.

AquaticSub -> RE: vaccines don't cause autism, they just result in autism (9/15/2010 1:02:12 PM)
I wasn't aware that the defination of autism has broadened but I'm definately running into more and more people who are very up-front about them being high-functioning autistics. Usually I wouldn't have pegged them for having a condition, a bit odd perhaps but I hang out with odd people so that's normal. [:D]

DomKen -> RE: vaccines don't cause autism, they just result in autism (9/15/2010 1:04:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bootstraps Evidence of Harm by David Kirby is a good read. Also Dan Olmstead http://www.whale.to/vaccine/olmsted.html Many people (just like with many issues) until its in their face and affects them they won't listen until they "feel it" for themselves Olmstead and Kirby are 2 reporters who have found a community of willing suckers willing to make them wealthy for telling lies. The science is overwhelming vaccines and autism are unrelated. Removing thimerosol has had zero effect on autism rates. Deluded parents who have chelated their autistic children have had to deal with their children's deaths. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9074208

mnottertail -> RE: vaccines don't cause autism, they just result in autism (9/15/2010 1:05:55 PM)
Vaccines don't cause autism, autism does. Wayne LaPierre

Moonhead -> RE: vaccines don't cause autism, they just result in autism (9/15/2010 1:12:06 PM)
A lot of stuff (Asperger's and Tourette's are the obvious examples) have been reclassified as forms of autism since the '70s. Then there's the high functioning thing you mention. Screening has improved massively to the extent that people who would previously have been deemed a bit eccentric or socially untalented are now lumped in with the people who can't function very well on any level. A while back you'd be unlikely to get diagnosed as autistic unless you spent all of your time drooling and playing with yourself, or had serious and crippling (such as being completely non verbal) difficulties communicating. You still get people who are that badly fucked up, of course, but the scales a hell of a lot wider these days, and most of the rise in diagnosed cases is down the other end, where people are at worst more or less functional, and at best indistinguishable from the average.

AquaticSub -> RE: vaccines don't cause autism, they just result in autism (9/15/2010 1:15:03 PM)
Interesting. I wonder why the defination has been broadened.

Moonhead -> RE: vaccines don't cause autism, they just result in autism (9/15/2010 1:19:19 PM)
It's a psychological term, rather than a rigidly medical one, so the definition changes occasionally. I can't swear to this without digging out a medical encyclopedia and checking, but I think the term was originally a synonym for schizophrenia before it got retooled to describe something else, with a purely organic rather than social or upbringing cause, in the '40s.

mnottertail -> RE: vaccines don't cause autism, they just result in autism (9/15/2010 1:20:12 PM)
What will be vexing, is that if we go with Jenner sticking it in somebody in the late 1700s and the more recent reclassification of cretins, morons, idiot savants and bedlammers into such catagories as autism.......then add the better screening of the less, what was the thing that was causal before vaccinations?

DCWoody -> RE: vaccines don't cause autism, they just result in autism (9/15/2010 1:23:01 PM)
Closer study enabling diagnosis of less obvious cases I figure. Everyone has something these days it seems. Look at the whole ADHD thing....short attention span, now a medical condition....

AquaticSub -> RE: vaccines don't cause autism, they just result in autism (9/15/2010 1:23:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead It's a psychological term, rather than a rigidly medical one, so the definition changes occasionally. I can't swear to this without digging out a medical encyclopedia and checking, but I think the term was originally a synonym for schizophrenia before it got retooled to describe something else, with a purely organic rather than social or upbringing cause, in the '40s. Learn something new every day. For some reason I considered autism a medical and not a psychological term. Makes sense when I think about it. Probably because my experience with an autistic child growing up was as a medical brat and the other family were all medical as well. So I always heard it discussed from a medical POV.

Moonhead -> RE: vaccines don't cause autism, they just result in autism (9/15/2010 1:36:40 PM)
Obviously it's a medical problem, and in a lot of cases a very serious one, but I'm told it's a psychological thing.

DomMeinCT -> RE: vaccines don't cause autism, they just result in autism (9/15/2010 1:58:36 PM)
FR.... Wired ran an interesting series of articles about vaccines last year (see left-hand list on this page): How to Win an Argument About Vaccines: The anti-immunization crowd clings to well-worn myths

AquaticSub -> RE: vaccines don't cause autism, they just result in autism (9/15/2010 1:59:00 PM)
Huh. I'll keep my ears open if the topic comes up again around me. Might learn something new.

angelikaJ -> RE: vaccines don't cause autism, they just result in autism (9/15/2010 2:00:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl quote: ORIGINAL: brokedickdog DFB, I hope you, or yours, haven't been affected directly by this issue/problem. My son was affected. He got behind on his immunizations because he caught a cold that turned into a respiratory infection. I had to go back to work and no day care would take him until he was current. He received 6 immunizations in one day to catch him up and the health department said it wouldn't hurt him when I expressed concern. Over the next 2 weeks, he emitted a high pitched scream, although he didn't cry or act like he was in any pain. Then his development started deteriorating and he was diagnosed with autism. When I was visiting my grandmother, I mentioned my son's autism to one of my grandmother's home health workers and they asked about his vaccinations, specifically asking if I noticed a high pitched scream. She thought it sounded like mercury poisoning. Then I began researching and didn't like what I learned. Pharmaceutical companies are afraid of lawsuits but not afraid enough to stop using thimerosal. Instead, they pay scientists to conduct studies that make thimerosal look harmless. How can a componant of mercury possibly be harmless? dbg, I am sorry your son is autistic. However reading things in "studies" doesn't neccesarily make them true. The form of mercury used in thimerosal is less toxic than the kind contained in the tunafish we eat. "Concerns based on extrapolations from methylmercury caused thiomersal to be removed from U.S. childhood vaccines, starting in 1999. Since then, it has been found that ethylmercury is cleared from the body and the brain significantly faster than methylmercury, so the late-1990s risk assessments turned out to be overly conservative." (From wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal under Toxicology linked to footnote # 11) Here is the link that details how much tuna is safe to eat: http://www.nrdc.org/health/effects/mercury/tuna.asp edit: clarity

Moonhead -> RE: vaccines don't cause autism, they just result in autism (9/15/2010 2:04:48 PM)
Of course Wired are going to be pro vaccines! they're legendary for their rabid neophillia. (Mind you, they also have a bit of a rep for libertarianism, which is something they have in common with a lot of the anti-vaccine lot: "you ain't vaccinating my kids, Mister Big Government!") Nice piece, though. They're generally very good on pop science.

Rule -> RE: vaccines don't cause autism, they just result in autism (9/15/2010 2:04:51 PM)
FR I have somewhat of a background in immunology and molecular biology. As the subject interests me, I have studied the link between vaccination and autism somewhat. It is a complex case. For example, how does one distinguish between naturally occurring Asperger's syndrome, naturally occurring autism and autism as a consequence of vaccination? I had studied the general composition of vaccines. I do not feel that thimerosal is the causative agent. Furthermore, the causative agent appears to be a-selective, or is selective in a manner that eludes us. Dosage appears to be an indication; six vaccinations in one day is indicative of something at least. My conclusion - rather educated guess - was that it is the adjuvant that is the guilty agent, inadvertently binding to self molecules and causing an immunological reaction against such a self molecule. All other ingredients of vaccines in my opinion were rather innocuous. However, thimerosal might contribute to this aberrant action of the adjuvant. In general I am opposed to vaccinations. Except for perhaps vaccination against such diseases as polio and smallpox and herpes and hepatitis and tuberculosis. (Though from the point of view of an evolution biologist, I do think that it is advisable to not exterminate such diseases and to have some in the population, taking their toll.)

Moonhead -> RE: vaccines don't cause autism, they just result in autism (9/15/2010 2:06:05 PM)
Vaccines and circumcision, then.

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