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RE: Goodbye pork chops - 9/20/2010 7:27:03 AM   
BentUnit


Posts: 897
Status: offline 		What a load of bollocks.

I'm not stupid and I'm unusually observant.
I say searing works and that is my considered and proven opinion time and time again.
I don't give a flying monkey's arsehole for another's opinion when I know I'm right on this particular issue, thanks.

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RE: Goodbye pork chops - 9/20/2010 7:32:28 AM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BentUnit

What a load of bollocks.

I'm not stupid and I'm unusually observant.
I say searing works and that is my considered and proven opinion time and time again.
I don't give a flying monkey's arsehole for another's opinion when I know I'm right on this particular issue, thanks.

Me, I'll stick with the actual science, which has shown that searing causes the loss of more moisture than cooking at a low-to-medium heat, due to osmotic pressure, but you can keep your cherished myths.


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RE: Goodbye pork chops - 9/20/2010 7:37:39 AM   
BentUnit


Posts: 897
Status: offline 		Pfffttt..I'll stick to actual hands on experience than regurgitated "facts" from some dubious source.
When your actual practical experience actually matches mine then you have grounds on which to claim factual basis for difference of opinion.
<sigh>
Got to love these instant internet experts!

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RE: Goodbye pork chops - 9/20/2010 7:40:39 AM   
Aynne88


Posts: 3873
Joined: 8/29/2008
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Nope. If you take a gorgeous slab of say Porterhouse steak and toss it on a warm grill pan, you will wind up with grey unappealing meat.

I want to hear the sizzle of a smoking pan, aboiut 4 minutes on each side, done. Nicely browned, a little crisp on the fat, and that's a steak.

I am a really good cook HK, and I have to say that I have never seen good results from quality meat in a warm or low pan.

I also think that electric stoves are horrible, I will only cook with gas, way better temperature control.

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RE: Goodbye pork chops - 9/20/2010 7:52:09 AM   
Hippiekinkster


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From: Liechtenstein
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88



Nope. If you take a gorgeous slab of say Porterhouse steak and toss it on a warm grill pan, you will wind up with grey unappealing meat.

I want to hear the sizzle of a smoking pan, aboiut 4 minutes on each side, done. Nicely browned, a little crisp on the fat, and that's a steak.

I am a really good cook HK, and I have to say that I have never seen good results from quality meat in a warm or low pan.

I also think that electric stoves are horrible, I will only cook with gas, way better temperature control.
I'm a really good cook too, Aynne. I used to own a restaurant. Greedy's seen copies of my old menus.

I'm talking ONLY about the loss of moisture. It seemed pretty obvious to me when I was writing my posts, but some people read all kinds of shit into things.

There's no doubt that searing creates complex chemical changes in the proteins and residual sugars on the surface of the meat, rendering the meat more flavorful.

Alle ist Klar?


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RE: Goodbye pork chops - 9/20/2010 8:06:41 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		HK is right.

There are plenty of recipes that take advantage of this fact. As a matter of fact if you want to add flavor to a piece of meat one very effective way is to marinate it after searing it off. The marindae, and therefore the flavor, penetrates the meat much more effectively due to the damage done to the exterior by the searing process.

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RE: Goodbye pork chops - 9/20/2010 8:21:58 AM   
BentUnit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

HK is right.

There are plenty of recipes that take advantage of this fact. As a matter of fact if you want to add flavor to a piece of meat one very effective way is to marinate it after searing it off. The marindae, and therefore the flavor, penetrates the meat much more effectively due to the damage done to the exterior by the searing process.


I think we are taking about different quality of meat and their treatments here DK.
High quality meat that is long grain fed and has a high degree of marbling with an 8 week air curing in a full "Argentine"  is a stand alone product.
It needs respect and required no other embellishments other than an experienced eye and hand.
Lesser quality meat of the same cut..grass fed/ HGP induced meat that is cryovaced at the abattoir and left to fester in it's own blood stinks and yes it will yield a large amount of moisture and yes it will stew, shrink, go grey and become tough when you cook it.

They are two totally different products.
It's like the difference between a Hyundai and a Ferrari.

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RE: Goodbye pork chops - 9/20/2010 9:43:20 AM   
AlwaysLisa


Posts: 1088
Joined: 10/6/2006
From: Washington State
Status: offline 		Termyn8or,

here's a link for ya.... http://www.harrisranchbeef.com/index_hub.html

Corn fed beef, free of hormones and antibiotics, it literally falls off the bone.  They ship :)  I think they have pork too.

If you have access to craigslist, go to the Farm and Garden section, you can normally find people selling pigs by the quarter, or half, farm reared, and here's the important part...hung for the right amount of time.   It sounds disgusting, but the meat HAS to hang for a certain amount of time, to age it properly.  The commercial wharehouses basically slaughter and wrap in cellophane, very little, if any, hanging time.

The best investment you can make is in a freezer.   Also, check with local hunters and the butchers who prepare the deer,elk or etc that is brought back.  Often times we get deer meat when the hunter can't take it all.   Good meat is out there, but they don't make it easy to find :)   

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RE: Goodbye pork chops - 9/20/2010 10:53:00 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BentUnit

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

HK is right.

There are plenty of recipes that take advantage of this fact. As a matter of fact if you want to add flavor to a piece of meat one very effective way is to marinate it after searing it off. The marindae, and therefore the flavor, penetrates the meat much more effectively due to the damage done to the exterior by the searing process.


I think we are taking about different quality of meat and their treatments here DK.
High quality meat that is long grain fed and has a high degree of marbling with an 8 week air curing in a full "Argentine"  is a stand alone product.
It needs respect and required no other embellishments other than an experienced eye and hand.
Lesser quality meat of the same cut..grass fed/ HGP induced meat that is cryovaced at the abattoir and left to fester in it's own blood stinks and yes it will yield a large amount of moisture and yes it will stew, shrink, go grey and become tough when you cook it.

They are two totally different products.
It's like the difference between a Hyundai and a Ferrari.


No. It's true no matter how trendy the method of raising the beef critter. You can prove it yourself. Take two steaks as nearly identical as possible. weigh each raw. Sear one and then cook both in the oven to medium rare. Weigh both after they are done. The seared steak will have lost a higher percentage of its raw weight than the unseared one.

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RE: Goodbye pork chops - 9/20/2010 10:55:19 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AlwaysLisa
The best investment you can make is in a freezer.

Freezing meat is a very tricky thing. Flash frozen the way a processor does it is pretty good at not damaging meat but a slow freeze, which is what happens if you just chuck meat into a residential freezer, is terrible for the quality of meat.

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RE: Goodbye pork chops - 9/20/2010 12:22:32 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Almost all meat you purchase in the supermarket has been frozen. Especially the more expensive cuts.

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RE: Goodbye pork chops - 9/20/2010 12:54:21 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Almost all meat you purchase in the supermarket has been frozen. Especially the more expensive cuts.

Which is part of the reason most home cooke dmeat is so lousy. I buy most of my beef from a butcher who buys sides and processes himself.

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RE: Goodbye pork chops - 9/20/2010 4:40:56 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		FR

Re : The argument about searing meat.

I have personally seen the juices ooze out when it is first cut on the plate. But then we are not talking about a thin piece here. In fact the thinness was the point in the first place. What's more I don't think anyone realizes just how hot I get it when I cook a good steak, the searing should be less than 1mm thick before even thinking of cooking the inside. That means my steaks are almost touching the hot, in fact very hot coals.

Since I take mine black and blue, mine goes to the cold side of the grill afterward, in fact I start mine last for that reason. When indoors I use an infrared broiler which takes almost a half hour to warm up. Once warm you can't put your hand anywhere in the oven but for a second or two. The heat is very intense and the meat is right up there.

If I am to cook something slow, it is cooked with moisture, such as a roast or other large piece. Sometimes chops actually, but they simmer until they fall apart. In that case I would have to agree that pre-searing the meat really does no good for the texture, only the flavor.

When you cook meat, there is a fibrous protein or something I believe called albumen which contracts, the meat shrinks and becomes tough. Continuing the process for a long time causes the fibers to actually break and that is when it starts to fall apart. One decent dish made that way is either pork or beef (or both) cooked with moisture after a quick sear, with plenty of onion, garlic and whatever in it. Tomatoes actually help quite a bit, I think the acid in them causes these fibers to disintegrate or break more quickly. Doing it this way you are bound to lose alot of that meat flavor (if you had it in the first place) so it depends on spices. However at the end of the process you are left with a juice that is quite tasty and we mainly would ladle it over some rice. But it is low maintainence as dishes go, you just let it simmer for hours.

When cooking the "other" way, I have to give it constant attention so it depends on what is going on at the time.

So my view on meat is that there is no gray area, you either get it just barely legal (<metaphor) or you cook the living hell out of it. It's one or the other. And contrary to popular belief, you can eat pink pork, but you can't (well shouldn't) eat red pork. Actually probably 90% of the time it would be safe to eat raw pork, but it's the other 10% that gets ya. From what I hear, what you can get from raw pork is bad enough to make it a sucker bet.

When I cook beef for myself though, I want it touched by nothing but salt and fire.

T

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RE: Goodbye pork chops - 9/20/2010 5:06:33 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Term,  did you try asking the butcher for a certain way of cut?  Sometime you can order it.

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RE: Goodbye pork chops - 9/20/2010 6:42:37 PM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Term,  did you try asking the butcher for a certain way of cut?  Sometime you can order it.

What *fabulous* advice!

~stef


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RE: Goodbye pork chops - 9/20/2010 7:50:55 PM   
thornhappy


Posts: 8596
Joined: 12/16/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BentUnit

Pfffttt..I'll stick to actual hands on experience than regurgitated "facts" from some dubious source.
When your actual practical experience actually matches mine then you have grounds on which to claim factual basis for difference of opinion.
<sigh>
Got to love these instant internet experts!


McGee is not an internet expert.  He's a nationally recognized expert in food science.  Searing is just carmelization, and it tastes good.

You can find McGee columns in the food section of the NYTimes.

as an aside...Cows aren't evolved for grains, and that's one of the reason they get fed antibiotics.  Their rumens are unhappy.  They're made for grass.

It's rare to find grass-fed cattle because it takes longer to get to market weight and IIRC you have to age the meat more.

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RE: Goodbye pork chops - 9/21/2010 7:11:42 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


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Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

Calla, some reason your reply didn't hit before mine. I really wish I could do that. In fact I dream of drinking raw milk, but buying it in this country is as dangerously illegal as crack.


Termy,

Yes, we buy raw down here, from awesome farmers, and I've purchased raw everyplace I've lived, but you're right. The "regulators" treat it like a drug bust when they find a farmer selling raw milk. It's appalling. We've had a couple of local farmers cuffed and their milk confiscated because they had the NERVE to bring some into town for a couple of their customers who couldn't get to them (in a refrigerated van no less)... and this is in a state where selling raw milk is LEGAL!

Frankly, I think we've been "babysat" near to -death-. I understand that people don't want to get sick from their food, but when you buy from a farmer who eats what he produces, that is a LOT less likely than buying from the mass-produced crap that the farmers who produce it aren't even ALLOWED to consume.

Most of our farmers who produce for the commercial food market have become sharecroppers. They produce, and get paid a pittence, most of which has to go back into buying whatever high-tech goody the corporate owner wants them to use THIS year, and then they're not even allowed a bit of land or a share in the food that they produce-- they're forced to use those meager earnings to purchase the food at RETAIL, when they grow it in their own back yards. This is particularly true of dairy farmers. I remember when the dairy that we got milk from when I was a child was "corporatized". The first victim was the milk tank. The corporate "buyer" came in and put in a SEALED tank, and set up a completely SEALED milking system, so that the only way to get the milk out of the tank was to pump it out into the tanker that came to pick up the milk (and which also picked up the milk from 35 other "local" dairies. The farmer was told that he HAD to innoculate his cows, and that he was REQUIRED to add "X" amount of "antibiotic support" to his cows' feed. He was also told that his calves (who, up until this point had been kept with their mothers for the first six months, and who nursed even while they're moms produced milk) had to be birth-weaned and bottle-fed, and it was RECOMMENDED that they be shipped off within 48 hrs of birth to a local "veal farm", except for the ones who would be kept as "replacement" cows for the cows he was -expected- by the corporate dairy to lose (anticipated "value span"... the amount of time that a dairy cow produces enough milk to be 'worth' keeping in the commercial dairy industry is only 4 YEARS!!!). Some of the cows in his barn had been producing milk for him and his family for a DECADE and he was told that he'd have to 'freshen' his stock in order to be able to renew his contract the following year -- meaning that any cow over 4 years old would be sent to slaughter to assure peak milk production for his new "masters".

I told you that I was opinionated about this *LOL* Raised in the Upstate NY Farming Belt, watching the disintegration of farm families and the "Rise of the Machine" in our food culture breaks my heart.

Calla


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RE: Goodbye pork chops - 9/21/2010 7:25:56 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


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Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

I'm talking ONLY about the loss of moisture. It seemed pretty obvious to me when I was writing my posts, but some people read all kinds of shit into things.


I can't say much about the loss of moisture. I eat all of my cooked meat -rare- except for meat used in stews... so for me, searing is crucial. All I -do- is crisp the outside of the meat and the "edge fat" with a super-thin seared crust. The inside is still bloody.

As for pork and poultry, I usually use that for stews or chilis -- slow-cooked at no more than 160 degrees over time (trichinella are killed at 140 degrees) OR, for pork that I plan to grill (which I also prefer rare), we use a dedicated freezer that freezes at -5 degrees F, and store in the freezer for 1 month before eating (to make sure that trichinella worms and larvae, if any, are killed -- trich is very rare in pork in the US, but I err on the side of caution because we eat 'foraging' pig/boar).

Because I eat my meat so rare, I don't usually have a problem with meat "losing moisture". I'd say that there might be merit to the slower-cooking method if one eats their meat medium to well-done. When you 'sear', notice the steam that is produced at the start of the process... that is moisture being lost to the atmosphere, so on a purely logical basis, it makes sense that moisture is being depleted from the meat that cannot be restored.

Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 9/21/2010 7:27:49 AM >

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Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

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RE: Goodbye pork chops - 9/21/2010 7:27:35 AM   
mnottertail


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Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		and never salt season meat you are cooking, wait till after........talk about loss of moisture.

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RE: Goodbye pork chops - 9/21/2010 7:28:53 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

and never salt season meat you are cooking, wait till after........talk about loss of moisture.


Why would anyone salt meat at all. Rub it with some olive oil and garlic and the carbonization process from grilling provides a natural "saltiness"! *grins*

Calla


_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

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