RE: Murder vs. Adultery (Full Version)

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juliaoceania -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/24/2010 7:20:21 PM)

Isn't interesting that this surge in violence correlates with their involvement with our military in Iraq?

In my view, a state that sanctions violence gets more violence. I am not arguing that we shouldn't have guns, but look at how our people glorify violence. Cheapening human life isn't the way to end violent crime. In general Europe has much lower violent crime than we do, and has for a couple of generations.

There is no proof that the death penalty stops violent crimes. It just cheapens human life and makes for State approved murder....There has been more than one family that thought that the execution of their loved one's murderer would bring them peace, because we kinda promise that with vengeance comes peace, only to find that there is no peace when the deed is done. The death penalty does not uplift society on any level, but reduces it to the lowest common denominator. It makes us what we are resisting. I suppose this is my main problem with it from a Taoist perspective, we become that which we resist when we do the very thing that we condemn, namely murdering to stop murder



JstAnotherSub -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/24/2010 7:33:27 PM)

Having attended many survivors support groups, I have to say I have never met anyone who expected anything from the death penalty, other than the knowledge that the person who murdered their loved one would never again murder.  There is no peace after murder.  There is disbelief, horror, rage, and many other emotions, even months at a time of some peace, until one moment it knocks you upside the head like it just happened yesterday.

I know of no one looking for closure or peace or any other thing from having the person who took their loved ones life, other than the knowledge that that person will get the only punishment appropriate for their crime....the loss of their right to live among us, and that person will never kill again.




Bella1965 -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/24/2010 7:38:04 PM)

G'evening all:



quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk
And Dom/Dommes shouldn't go run and hide. Boorish behavior I must say
Contacting a total stranger out of the blue in an email isn't any better, lol. Tsk, tsk. Pot calling kettle black, eh?


Stay safe, play nice & share your toys w/ others...


[:D]


Bella



rulemylife -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/24/2010 7:39:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

its bad business!

Why would they murder a con and only collect on the insurance when they can float the bonds for the term of the sentence, collect all that interest?  lol

The question is why do people always sidestep the profits made from someone being jailed and wall street filling up those cafr funds?

Is there that much crime in the US or that much profit in jailing?    Prison bonds can net upwards of 4 million bucks.  Backed by the full faith and credit of the US :)

just a sidenote food for thought



Psychological help is just a phone call away.

Just food for thought.



jlf1961 -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/24/2010 7:47:45 PM)

quote:

"Social science has long played a role in examining the efficacy and fairness of the death penalty. Empirical studies of the deterrent effect of capital punishment were cited by the Supreme Court in its landmark cases in the 1970s; most notable was the 1975 Isaac Ehrlich study (2,943KB), which used multivariate regression analysis and purported to show a significant marginal deterrent effect over life imprisonment, but which was soon roundly criticized for methodological flaws.

Decades later, new econometric studies have emerged, using panel data techniques, that report striking findings of marginal deterrence, even up to 18 lives saved per execution. Yet the cycle of debate continues, as these new studies face criticism for omitting key potential variables and for the potential distorting effect of one anomalously high-executing state (Texas). Meanwhile, other empiricists, relying mainly on survey questionnaires, have taken a fresh look at the human dynamics of death penalty trials, especially the attitudes and personal background factors that influence capital jurors." source



This seems to indicate a marginal deterrence with the death penalty. Contrary to pro death penalty sites, there was no substantial increase of murders between 1972 and 1976 when there were no death penalty statutes anywhere in the US. source

That being said, I maintain that there are some murders that are so heinous that the death penalty is warranted.

These being rape with murder, serial killers, and mass murderers.



Bella1965 -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/24/2010 7:47:47 PM)

G'evening all:



quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I don't joke about executing people, or the reasons why those people need to be executed.
If you want to ignore me for not enjoying genocide jokes, abortion jokes, and jokes about people dying from cancer... you can ignore me, but I won't be ignoring you, I don't block anyone.
I wasn't poking humor at the topic or the seriousness of the matter at hand. I found it ironic that you would cite a site with a propaganda slant to defend your opinion of the cost effectiveness of incarceration versus the death penalty. That's extremely humorous to me. What I'd like to see is a breakdown of the specifics rather than general numbers quoted in the millions. Because if I wasn't so lazy, I bet I could find the numbers to refute your alleged "evidence". *snickering* Also, if you want to disagree, do so without the unnecessary personal attacks. That's just churlish.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub
While Julia and I see this subject from totally opposite ends, I gotta say, I can think of no one who has a sense of humor regarding this subject.
No? You just have. Pleasure to meet you. I find humor in just about anything. Keeps me sane in this world of contradictions. See my reply to her above.


Stay safe, play nice & share your toys w/ others...


[:D]


Bella



JstAnotherSub -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/24/2010 8:11:28 PM)

Glad you can find humor in anything.  I must be handicapped, cause words like "granny panties in a wad" and "non existent sense of humor" in reply to the post Julia made, comes off as condescending or just trying to be an ass.

Now that I know the real story, oh my, am I laughing!

[8|]



tazzygirl -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/24/2010 8:35:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

But, once it is proven beyond any doubt (and we can do that now), why not shoot them in the head with a 25 cent bullet rather than have them checked by a doctor, and spend more on putting them to death than we would on many sick people who have not murdered someone.


So do they get an appeal? How many innocent people have been executed even after exhausting their appeals? How many mentally disabled people have been murdered by the state in places like Texas? How many people have been exonerated by DNA for you to say there is always enough reasonable doubt to put an end to executions?






quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

How many people have been murdered after a convicted murderer got out of jail?


quote:


ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Where here did you see anyone advocating those commit first degree murder with special circumstances should ever be paroled?


Show me where i ever said anyone was advocating any such thing?

You asked your questions, so i tossed in one of my own. When you answer yours, i will do the same. See how that works?



juliaoceania -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/24/2010 8:44:32 PM)

I have not personally attacked you, only found your "joke" distasteful...finding your post distasteful is not a personal attack.

I can disagree with people without insulting them. I am probably one of the few on this thread that finds the death penalty egregiously wrong on many levels. I do not think disagreeing with that view makes a person evil, even if I will attempt to show why I believe as I do.

If you are so fragile in your beliefs that you need to be condescending and snarky, instead of contributing to the thread in a way that the seriousness of the topic merits, fine by me. I used to enjoy many of your posts, I hope I can do so again one day... Unless all I see is a trend of you being insulting and thinking this in some way makes you "right"



juliaoceania -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/24/2010 8:48:25 PM)

Okay... Tazzy... our mutual questions can just go unanswered



tazzygirl -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/24/2010 8:48:56 PM)

Did not think you could answer yours



juliaoceania -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/24/2010 8:49:35 PM)

They were rhetorical, but some of yours have been too



tazzygirl -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/24/2010 8:51:14 PM)

But as far as your demand for an answer, i can answer mine.

http://www.wesleylowe.com/repoff.html



juliaoceania -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/24/2010 8:57:37 PM)

My larger point of posting the question.... how many given life sentences without possibility of parole got out again? I am advocating locking those sorts of people up and never releasing them, ever. You are talking about released murderers. We have the death penalty, so how did it help in the cases you list? I can answer that question, the death penalty did not save one of those victims because they weren't given the death penalty. They obviously were not even given a life sentence, were they



jlf1961 -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/24/2010 9:04:38 PM)

Actually Tazzy, I believe I covered your question.

What I see is that Julia is not putting forth a viable alternative to capital punishment. She suggests that countries without capital punishment have a lower incidence of violent crimes, which I have proven to be false. Some countries have a lower incidence of murder but it is only non-existent in Iceland with a murder rate of 0.

Violent crimes by country are broken down to assaults:

# 1 United States: 2,238,480
# 2 United Kingdom: 723,886
# 3 South Africa: 548,847
# 4 Mexico: 253,972
# 5 India: 236,313
# 6 Canada: 235,270
# 7 Argentina: 185,973
# 8 Australia: 141,124
# 9 Germany: 126,932
# 10 France: 106,484
# 11 Zimbabwe: 93,062
# 12 Spain: 90,453
# 13 Belgium: 61,755
# 14 Sweden: 61,631
# 15 Japan: 55,766
# 16 Chile: 55,575
# 17 Turkey: 53,485
# 18 Netherlands: 52,521
# 19 Morocco: 46,341
# 20 Tunisia: 35,723
# 21 New Zealand: 31,812
# 22 Austria: 31,576
# 23 Poland: 30,969
# 24 Italy: 28,699
# 25 Finland: 28,022
# 26 Peru: 26,728
# 27 Colombia: 25,219
# 28 Portugal: 23,378
# 29 Zambia: 22,127
# 30 Thailand: 20,125
# 31 Indonesia: 18,562
# 32 Korea, South: 14,925
# 33 Norway: 14,727
# 34 Saudi Arabia: 13,864
# 35 Hungary: 11,781
# 36 Romania: 11,137
# 37 Jamaica: 10,833
# 38 Mauritius: 10,784
# 39 Uruguay: 10,544
# 40 Denmark: 10,330
# 41 Ireland: 9,921
# 42 Burma: 8,059
# 43 Hong Kong: 7,450
# 44 Czech Republic: 7,350
# 45 Switzerland: 6,123
# 46 Croatia: 5,404
# 47 Ukraine: 5,264
# 48 Slovakia: 4,801
# 49 Bolivia: 4,643
# 50 El Salvador: 4,542
# 51 Greece: 3,322
# 52 Panama: 3,182
# 53 Bulgaria: 3,084
# 54 Slovenia: 2,501
# 55 Costa Rica: 2,284
# 56 Belarus: 2,116
# 57 Kuwait: 2,097
# 58 Lithuania: 1,668
# 59 Papua New Guinea: 1,351
# 60 Luxembourg: 1,328
# 61 Iceland: 1,270
# 62 Cyprus: 1,192
# 63 Moldova: 1,188
# 64 Yemen: 1,015
# 65 Latvia: 882
# 66 Malta: 823
# 67 Oman: 717
# 68 Seychelles: 700
# 69 Albania: 554
# 70 Maldives: 523
# 71 Georgia: 488
# 72 Estonia: 460
# 73 Qatar: 327
# 74 Kyrgyzstan: 208
# 75 Azerbaijan: 173
# 76 Montserrat: 96
# 77 Dominica: 70
# 78 Philippines: 62


And Murders:
1 India: 37,170
2 Russia: 28,904
3 Colombia: 26,539
4 South Africa: 21,553
5 United States: 16,204
6 Mexico: 13,144
7 Venezuela: 8,022
8 Philippines: 6,553
9 Thailand: 5,140
10 Ukraine: 4,418
11 Argentina: 3,453
12 Indonesia: 2,204
13 El Salvador: 2,024
14 United Kingdom: 1,201
15 Peru: 1,136
16 France: 1,051
17 Belarus: 989
18 Korea, South: 955
19 Germany: 914
20 Zimbabwe: 912
21 Jamaica: 887
22 Nepal: 826
23 Zambia: 797
24 Poland: 716
25 Yemen: 697
26 Italy: 644
27 Japan: 637
28 Romania: 563
29 Malaysia: 551
30 Canada: 523
31 Spain: 494
32 Papua New Guinea: 465
33 Kyrgyzstan: 413
34 Moldova: 340
35 Bulgaria: 332
36 Australia: 302
37 Lithuania: 293
38 Panama: 281
39 Costa Rica: 254
40 Bolivia: 248
41 Portugal: 247
42 Georgia: 239
43 Chile: 235
44 Czech Republic: 234
45 Sweden: 219
46 Uruguay: 217
47 Latvia: 214
48 Switzerland: 213
49 Azerbaijan: 212
50 Hungary: 203
51 Saudi Arabia: 202
52 Albania: 179
53 Netherlands: 157
54 Belgium: 155
55 Estonia: 143
55 Morocco: 143
57 Slovakia: 138
58 Finland: 132
59 Armenia: 127
60 Namibia: 126
61 Tunisia: 119
62 Burma: 92
63 Greece: 81
64 Croatia: 80
65 Austria: 65
66 Denmark: 56
67 New Zealand: 51
68 Norway: 49
69 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 47
70 Hong Kong: 38
70 Ireland: 38
72 Slovenia: 36
73 Mauritius: 26
74 Kuwait: 23
75 Oman: 15
76 Maldives: 8
77 Malta: 6
77 Seychelles: 6
79 Luxembourg: 4
79 Iceland: 4
81 Dominica: 2
81 Cyprus: 2
83 Qatar: 1
Total: 197,333



juliaoceania -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/24/2010 9:07:16 PM)

I asked this question, do you want to execute all violent criminals? If you answered that question, I must have missed it



TheHeretic -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/24/2010 9:29:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub
I can think of no one who has a sense of humor regarding this subject.



Then you aren't thinking about it very hard, Jsta. Ever heard the terms, "gallows humor?" or, "black comedy?"

We live in a world where awful things happen every day. Now the humorless and sanctimonious may get all offended (or pretend to), because it's suits their purposes, but the truth is, humor is one of humanities greatest coping mechanisms. These things are hard, harsh, realities, and yet they are the righteous path. No other punishment is suitable for some crimes. To do less is selfish weakness. It demeans us, and it betrays the victims. If the only way to face the horrors of the electric chair is to ask, "regular or extra crispy," if the only way to accept the gas chamber is by recommending a deep. cleansing breath, so be it.

Ever heard cops blowing off steam? Nurses? I watched two grandmothers die with severe dementia, and I can tell some sick Alzheimer's jokes. In addition to supporting the death penalty, I also support abortion right up to the point where we can just adopt out a preemie. Don't get me started with the dead baby jokes. I was at a big family wedding last month, and I overheard the next generation of my family, the little nephews and second cousins. They tell the jokes as "what's the quickest way to unload a truckload of abortions."




tazzygirl -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/24/2010 9:46:45 PM)

Nope. In fact, many in 2003 were given commuted sentences, many getting "life" in prison in Illinois. What happened to four of them the articles mention? Well two are back in jail for drug and gun charges, and a third is still being investigated for a fire that killed many, including his own family.


Adam Liptak, JD, Legal Correspondent and Columnist for the New York Times, in an Oct. 2, 2005 article titled "To More Inmates, Life Term Means Dying Behind Bars," wrote:
"A survey by The New York Times found that about 132,000 of the nation's prisoners, or almost 1 in 10, are serving life sentences. The number of lifers has almost doubled in the last decade, far outpacing the overall growth in the prison population. Of those lifers sentenced between 1988 and 2001, about a third are serving time for sentences other than murder, including burglary and drug crimes.
Growth has been especially sharp among lifers with the words 'without parole' appended to their sentences. In 1993, the Times survey found, about 20 percent of all lifers had no chance of parole. Last year, the number rose to 28 percent.

http://deathpenalty.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=1016

Life without the possibility of parole doesnt mean they will not get paroled.

There are many states in the United States where a convict can be released on parole after a decade or more has passed. For example, sentences of "15 years to life" or "25 years to life" may be given; this is called an "indeterminate life sentence'", while a sentence of "life without the possibility of parole" is called a "determinate life sentence".[1] Even when a sentence specifically denies the possibility of parole, government officials may have the power to grant amnesty or reprieves, or commute a sentence to time served.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_imprisonment_(United_States)

But, lets not forget, it only costs 90000 more to keep an inmate on death row.

In California, wait times average nearly 20 years, a state commission report in June says. It costs about $90,000 more per year to house a death row inmate than other inmates.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-07-23-Death-row-time_N.htm

Now, believe it or not, i am not an advocate for the death penalty. Not because i feel its immoral or its cruel... but because there are still too many crooked prosecuters and judges pulling dirty shit, or knowing about said shit, for me to feel comfortable without DNA proof positive. Even a fingerprint can be planted.

But ill be damned if i want a murderer living out his life on my dime.

Come up with a better solution. Dont cry me a river over these men and women. Susan Smith killed her two sons, blamed it on a mysterious black man, and is eligible for parole in 2024.



WyldHrt -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/24/2010 10:24:51 PM)

quote:

My larger point of posting the question.... how many given life sentences without possibility of parole got out again? I am advocating locking those sorts of people up and never releasing them, ever. You are talking about released murderers.

Not really. From Tazzy's link:
quote:

- Donald Dillbeck -- Florida. Killed policeman in 1979. Escaped from prison in 1990, kidnapped and killed female motorist after escape. Condemned 1991.
- Edward Kennedy -- Florida. Killed motel clerk. Sentenced to Life. Escaped 1981. Killed policeman and male civilian after prison break. Executed 1992.
- Dawud Mu'Min -- Virginia. Killed cab driver in holdup. Sentenced 1973. Escaped 1988. Raped/killed woman 1988. Condemned 1989. Executed 1997.
- Viva Nash -- Utah/Arizona. Two terms of life for murder in Utah, 1978. Escaped in 1982. Murdered again. Condemned in Arizona, 1983.
- Randy Greenawalt -- Escaped from Prison in 1978, while serving a life sentence for a 1974 murder. He then murdered a family of 4 people, shotgunning them to death, including a toddler
- Norman Parker -- Florida/D.C. Life term in Florida for murder, 1966. Escaped 1978. Life on another count of murder in 1979.
- Winford Stokes -- Missouri. Ruled insane on two counts of murder 1969. Escaped from asylum, 1978. Murdered again. Executed for this murder, 1990.
- Martsay Bolder -- Missouri. Serving a sentence of life for first-degree murder in 1973. Murdered prison cellmate 1979
- Henry Brisbon, Illinois. Murdered 2 in robbery. Sentenced to 1000- 3000 years. Killed inmate in prison 1982. Sentenced to DP. Commuted by Governor Ryan.
- Randolph Dial -- Oklahoma. Life for murder 1986. Escaped from prison with deputy warden's wife as kidnap victim. 1989. Still at large. Warden's wife never found.
- Samuel D. Smith -- in prison for murdering Zita Casey, 79, during a burglary in St. Louis in 1978. While in prison he murdered another inmate, Marlin May, during a knife fight in 1987 in prison.
- Jarmarr Arnold -- who, while on DR, murdered another DR inmate by stabbing him in the forehead with a sharpen spike.
- Timothy Hancock -- Serving a life sentence for a murder he committed in 1990, murdered his cellmate, Jason Wagner, in November 2000, while serving his life sentence.
- Cuhuatemoc Hinricky Peraita -- Rainbow City, Alabama, who was serving life without parole for 3 murders in Gadsden, Alabama was found guilty of capital murder for murdering a fellow inmate.
- James Prestridge -- Sentenced to L wop, for murdering Esfandiar Ateighechi, as he begged for his life in 1989. Escaped from prison along with John Doran. After their escape Prestridge murdered his fellow-escapee John Doran, shooting him in the back of the head.
-  Thomas Eugene Creech, who had been convicted of three murders and had claimed a role in more than 40 killings in 13 states as a paid killer for a motorcycle gang, killed a fellow prison inmate in 1981 and was sentenced to death.
- Robert Lynn Pruett -- a convicted killer already serving a life sentence, fatally stabbed prison guard Daniel Nagle with a sharpened rod while patrolling the Texas Department of Criminal Justice McConnell Unit near Beeville in South Texas. It was the first fatal attack on a Texas corrections officer since guard Minnie Houston was stabbed to death in 1984 by an inmate at the Ellis Unit near Huntsville, a prison official said.
- Bennie Demps --condemned to the DP for the 1976 murder of Alfred Sturgis, a prison snitch. Originally, Demps was sent to death row for the murders of R.N. Brinkworth and Celia Puhlick, who were fatally shot in a Lake County citrus grove. A year after Demps was sent to death row, the U.S. Supreme Court threw out capital punishment across the country, ruling death sentences had been imposed in an arbitrary way. Another failure of the Furman-commuted murderers.
- In March 1979, a Graterford (Pa.) prison guard was murdered brutally by an inmate. The inmate -- at the time he murdered the guard -- already was serving a life sentence for the triple murder of two infants and an elderly woman.
- In 1994, an inmate who already was serving two life sentences in the Philadelphia Industrial Correctional Center was sentenced to three more after he was convicted of stabbing three prison guards.
- In 1999, a Beeville (Texas) prison guard was killed by an inmate already serving a sentence for murder.
- On October 22, 1983 at the federal penitentiary in Marion, Illinois, two prison guards were murdered in two SEPARATE instances by SEPARATE inmates who were both serving life terms for previously murdering inmates.

Some on the above list escaped, others murdered fellow prisoners or guards. None were released prisoners.

On that note, I have a question which was spurred by something Lazarus said. Is it OK for lifers to kill prison guards or fellow inmates? Without the threat of DP, what does an LWOP prisoner really have to lose?



tazzygirl -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/24/2010 10:30:25 PM)

There is none. No fear, no deterrent, no nothing.




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