RE: Murder vs. Adultery

RE: Murder vs. Adultery (Full Version)

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WyldHrt -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/24/2010 11:24:23 PM)
quote: Isn't interesting that this surge in violence correlates with their involvement with our military in Iraq? You have really got to be kidding with this.

Real0ne -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/24/2010 11:35:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Actually Tazzy, I believe I covered your question. What I see is that Julia is not putting forth a viable alternative to capital punishment. She suggests that countries without capital punishment have a lower incidence of violent crimes, which I have proven to be false. Some countries have a lower incidence of murder but it is only non-existent in Iceland with a murder rate of 0. Violent crimes by country are broken down to assaults: Might want to use data you can actually gain comparative results? murders Showing latest available data. # 1 Colombia: 0.617847 per 1,000 people # 2 South Africa: 0.496008 per 1,000 people # 3 Jamaica: 0.324196 per 1,000 people # 4 Venezuela: 0.316138 per 1,000 people # 5 Russia: 0.201534 per 1,000 people # 6 Mexico: 0.130213 per 1,000 people # 7 Estonia: 0.107277 per 1,000 people # 8 Latvia: 0.10393 per 1,000 people # 9 Lithuania: 0.102863 per 1,000 people # 10 Belarus: 0.0983495 per 1,000 people # 11 Ukraine: 0.094006 per 1,000 people # 12 Papua New Guinea: 0.0838593 per 1,000 people # 13 Kyrgyzstan: 0.0802565 per 1,000 people # 14 Thailand: 0.0800798 per 1,000 people # 15 Moldova: 0.0781145 per 1,000 people # 16 Zimbabwe: 0.0749938 per 1,000 people # 17 Seychelles: 0.0739025 per 1,000 people # 18 Zambia: 0.070769 per 1,000 people # 19 Costa Rica: 0.061006 per 1,000 people # 20 Poland: 0.0562789 per 1,000 people # 21 Georgia: 0.0511011 per 1,000 people # 22 Uruguay: 0.045082 per 1,000 people # 23 Bulgaria: 0.0445638 per 1,000 people # 24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people # 25 Armenia: 0.0425746 per 1,000 people # 26 India: 0.0344083 per 1,000 people # 27 Yemen: 0.0336276 per 1,000 people # 28 Dominica: 0.0289733 per 1,000 people # 29 Azerbaijan: 0.0285642 per 1,000 people # 30 Finland: 0.0283362 per 1,000 people # 31 Slovakia: 0.0263303 per 1,000 people # 32 Romania: 0.0250784 per 1,000 people # 33 Portugal: 0.0233769 per 1,000 people # 34 Malaysia: 0.0230034 per 1,000 people # 35 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 0.0229829 per 1,000 people # 36 Mauritius: 0.021121 per 1,000 people # 37 Hungary: 0.0204857 per 1,000 people # 38 Korea, South: 0.0196336 per 1,000 people # 39 Slovenia: 0.0179015 per 1,000 people # 40 France: 0.0173272 per 1,000 people # 41 Czech Republic: 0.0169905 per 1,000 people # 42 Iceland: 0.0168499 per 1,000 people # 43 Australia: 0.0150324 per 1,000 people # 44 Canada: 0.0149063 per 1,000 people # 45 Chile: 0.014705 per 1,000 people # 46 United Kingdom: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people # 47 Italy: 0.0128393 per 1,000 people # 48 Spain: 0.0122456 per 1,000 people # 49 Germany: 0.0116461 per 1,000 people # 50 Tunisia: 0.0112159 per 1,000 people # 51 Netherlands: 0.0111538 per 1,000 people # 52 New Zealand: 0.0111524 per 1,000 people # 53 Denmark: 0.0106775 per 1,000 people # 54 Norway: 0.0106684 per 1,000 people # 55 Ireland: 0.00946215 per 1,000 people # 56 Switzerland: 0.00921351 per 1,000 people # 57 Indonesia: 0.00910842 per 1,000 people # 58 Greece: 0.0075928 per 1,000 people # 59 Hong Kong: 0.00550804 per 1,000 people # 60 Japan: 0.00499933 per 1,000 people # 61 Saudi Arabia: 0.00397456 per 1,000 people # 62 Qatar: 0.00115868 per 1,000 people Weighted average: 0.1 per 1,000 people http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita now we can go to assaults Showing latest available data. Rank Countries Amount # 1 South Africa: 12.0752 per 1,000 people # 2 Montserrat: 10.2773 per 1,000 people # 3 Mauritius: 8.76036 per 1,000 people # 4 Seychelles: 8.62196 per 1,000 people # 5 Zimbabwe: 7.6525 per 1,000 people # 6 United States: 7.56923 per 1,000 people # 7 New Zealand: 7.47881 per 1,000 people # 8 United Kingdom: 7.45959 per 1,000 people # 9 Canada: 7.11834 per 1,000 people # 10 Australia: 7.02459 per 1,000 people # 11 Finland: 5.32644 per 1,000 people # 12 Iceland: 4.66406 per 1,000 people # 13 Tunisia: 4.02561 per 1,000 people # 14 Jamaica: 3.95943 per 1,000 people # 15 Portugal: 3.59445 per 1,000 people # 16 Chile: 3.32476 per 1,000 people # 17 Norway: 3.2064 per 1,000 people # 18 Netherlands: 2.68964 per 1,000 people # 19 Ireland: 2.47037 per 1,000 people # 20 Mexico: 2.40275 per 1,000 people # 21 Spain: 2.24221 per 1,000 people # 22 Czech Republic: 2.14803 per 1,000 people # 23 Zambia: 1.96475 per 1,000 people # 24 Denmark: 1.80339 per 1,000 people # 25 France: 1.75554 per 1,000 people # 26 Germany: 1.4183 per 1,000 people # 27 Uruguay: 1.34192 per 1,000 people # 28 Hungary: 1.11532 per 1,000 people # 29 Slovenia: 1.09796 per 1,000 people # 30 Hong Kong: 1.07987 per 1,000 people # 31 Dominica: 1.01407 per 1,000 people # 32 Poland: 0.850459 per 1,000 people # 33 Turkey: 0.76779 per 1,000 people # 34 Slovakia: 0.686982 per 1,000 people # 35 Colombia: 0.587116 per 1,000 people # 36 Belarus: 0.543689 per 1,000 people # 37 Italy: 0.500284 per 1,000 people # 38 Romania: 0.419615 per 1,000 people # 39 Bulgaria: 0.41396 per 1,000 people # 40 Qatar: 0.378888 per 1,000 people # 41 Latvia: 0.360262 per 1,000 people # 42 Estonia: 0.345086 per 1,000 people # 43 Japan: 0.339272 per 1,000 people # 44 Thailand: 0.313542 per 1,000 people # 45 Greece: 0.311399 per 1,000 people # 46 Korea, South: 0.30684 per 1,000 people # 47 Moldova: 0.272952 per 1,000 people # 48 Papua New Guinea: 0.243643 per 1,000 people # 49 India: 0.218755 per 1,000 people # 50 Costa Rica: 0.178287 per 1,000 people # 51 Saudi Arabia: 0.178098 per 1,000 people # 52 Ukraine: 0.112007 per 1,000 people # 53 Georgia: 0.10434 per 1,000 people # 54 Indonesia: 0.0767107 per 1,000 people # 55 Yemen: 0.0489699 per 1,000 people # 56 Kyrgyzstan: 0.0404197 per 1,000 people # 57 Azerbaijan: 0.0252781 per 1,000 people Weighted average: 2.5 per 1,000 people http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_ass_percap-crime-assaults-per-capita

Bella1965 -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/25/2010 2:07:37 AM)
G'morning all: quote: ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub Glad you can find humor in anything. I must be handicapped, cause words like "granny panties in a wad" and "non existent sense of humor" in reply to the post Julia made, comes off as condescending or just trying to be an ass. Apparently, you missed her attack. Here, I've made it easy for you. quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Well, if you are willing to forgo your rights to a trial by your peers, etc, if you are ever accused of a crime, then you can save the taxpayers and just execute yourself pretrial. Since you are wanting to save the taxpayers money on due process, I say start with yourself! That was highly uncalled for. quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I have not personally attacked you, only found your "joke" distasteful...finding your post distasteful is not a personal attack. If you are so fragile in your beliefs that you need to be condescending and snarky, instead of contributing to the thread in a way that the seriousness of the topic merits, fine by me. I used to enjoy many of your posts, I hope I can do so again one day... Unless all I see is a trend of you being insulting and thinking this in some way makes you "right" See your above post. If you decide to go there, I'll repay you in kind. Next time, behave like an adult and I'll be happy to give you the courtesy I would anyone else. quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Then you aren't thinking about it very hard, Jsta. Ever heard the terms, "gallows humor?" or, "black comedy?" We live in a world where awful things happen every day. Now the humorless and sanctimonious may get all offended (or pretend to), because it's suits their purposes, but the truth is, humor is one of humanities greatest coping mechanisms. These things are hard, harsh, realities, and yet they are the righteous path. No other punishment is suitable for some crimes. To do less is selfish weakness. It demeans us, and it betrays the victims. If the only way to face the horrors of the electric chair is to ask, "regular or extra crispy," if the only way to accept the gas chamber is by recommending a deep. cleansing breath, so be it. Bingo, someone "got" it. Stay safe, play nice & share your toys w/ others... [:D] Bella

juliaoceania -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/25/2010 4:30:07 AM)
As for my reply, it was using your suggestion that you do not take human life all that seriously, perhaps you should start with your own... I suppose your sense of humor stops at your own life, and I thought as much when I posted that... I thought it appropriate, it was not a personal attack

jlf1961 -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/25/2010 5:27:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WyldHrt quote: Isn't interesting that this surge in violence correlates with their involvement with our military in Iraq? You have really got to be kidding with this. Actually, she is quite serious. She seems to be saying that the tendency to violence is a direct result of exposure to American influences.

TheHeretic -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/25/2010 5:39:44 AM)
Sure, Julia. It's always different when you do it... [8\|]

HouseDarkPassion -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/25/2010 5:48:42 AM)
Me and My wife feel that some fucked up logic that they have. How can you compare a woman that want another dick to a woman who committed murder? Adultery is something that person and God have to deal with not the country that she live in. To bad we can't bring her to the states where she would be states where she would be safe.

JstAnotherSub -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/25/2010 6:13:10 AM)
Heretic, I know some damn good black humor and gallows humor jokes. I even know several about this subject. I just wouldnt dare throw them out there in the midst of such an emotional discussion. I also, as I stated before, saw nothing indicating humor in Bellas post. Hell, I know many jokes that make me wonder about my self cause they do crack me up so much. I guess I just disagree on what is funny with some folks.

juliaoceania -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/25/2010 6:22:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: WyldHrt quote: Isn't interesting that this surge in violence correlates with their involvement with our military in Iraq? You have really got to be kidding with this. Actually, she is quite serious. She seems to be saying that the tendency to violence is a direct result of exposure to American influences. No, I am saying war is a form of state sanctioned violence. Americans are not the only war-like country

juliaoceania -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/25/2010 6:24:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Sure, Julia. It's always different when you do it... [8\|] No, I would say it I was being intentionally distasteful to illustrate a larger point...I never said my comment was tasteful or even funny.

TheHeretic -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/25/2010 6:56:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub Heretic, I know some damn good black humor and gallows humor jokes. I even know several about this subject. I just wouldnt dare throw them out there in the midst of such an emotional discussion. I also, as I stated before, saw nothing indicating humor in Bellas post. Hell, I know many jokes that make me wonder about my self cause they do crack me up so much. I guess I just disagree on what is funny with some folks. Well, Jsta, I'm a sensitive, caring, 21st Century kind of guy, but I'll only go so far when it comes to letting all the rules of a discussion be set by an emotional lowest common denominator. I will "dare" to throw it out there, because the whole picture being on the table is more important than somebody getting their feelings squicked. It really doesn't matter if you saw the humor of an earlier post or not. Whether we have a natural gift for being funny or not, the humor response still works on our psyche, even if nobody else gets the joke. I completely agree with your last statement, though. There is a lot of diversity in what is funny to different people.

Bella1965 -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/25/2010 7:59:15 AM)
G'morning all: quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Well, if you are willing to forgo your rights to a trial by your peers, etc, if you are ever accused of a crime, then you can save the taxpayers and just execute yourself pretrial. Since you are wanting to save the taxpayers money on due process, I say start with yourself! As for my reply, it was using your suggestion that you do not take human life all that seriously, perhaps you should start with your own... I suppose your sense of humor stops at your own life, and I thought as much when I posted that...I thought it appropriate, it was not a personal attack So, you intentionally provoked me? WTF? Wishing me dead for a difference of opinion or what you claim to be a joke in bad taste? How is that not a personal attack? Twist the context in whatever way your conscience is comfortable. That was not a mature way to handle it. I take human life very seriously, especially considering my career. Nor did I call for the law process to be changed. Don't put words under my fingertips. If you're that emotional over the topic, maybe you should step back. Take a good long look at what set you off and why. Mature adults don't react. They make reasoned and informed viewpoints. They handle debates calmly, coolly, and without resorting to back biting. Since you're unable to, I'll take the higher road. Enjoy your "debate" as I'll no longer follow this thread. Mon dieu. Stay safe, play nice & share your toys w/ others... [:D] Bella

Real0ne -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/25/2010 9:16:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania No, I am saying war is a form of state sanctioned violence. Americans are not the only war-like country Julia this one you pegged bang on. Its like a bunch of large corporate farms and each farm raises thousands of pitbulls and when the stakes are high enough scare the puppies and while the puppies are in fear for their lives one plantation sends their pitbulls after another plantation and the winner collects the booty. Well now days its more civilized though because they give the loser the freedom of democracy and wealth extraction! 'Oh wait isnt pitbull fighting is illegal? quote: "Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

jlf1961 -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/25/2010 1:21:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: WyldHrt quote: Isn't interesting that this surge in violence correlates with their involvement with our military in Iraq? You have really got to be kidding with this. Actually, she is quite serious. She seems to be saying that the tendency to violence is a direct result of exposure to American influences. No, I am saying war is a form of state sanctioned violence. Americans are not the only war-like country That is not what you implied with your statement, which I emphasized. You implied that the rise in violence in Britain was directly linked to that countries involvement with US Forces in Iraq. You seem to be under the delusion, like hunk and real one that the state or the corporate world is the root cause of violence. Modern society is the root cause of violent crime, not the state or the corporate world.

juliaoceania -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/25/2010 1:32:59 PM)
quote: That is not what you implied with your statement, which I emphasized. You implied that the rise in violence in Britain was directly linked to that countries involvement with US Forces in Iraq. You seem to be under the delusion, like hunk and real one that the state or the corporate world is the root cause of violence. Modern society is the root cause of violent crime, not the state or the corporate world. This is rather weak, you are trying to marginalize me, not because what I say is incorrect, but because you don't like my observations... Yes, capital punishment is state sanctioned violence and war is state sanctioned violence.. you don't like that fact, I cannot help you. The rest of your wild straw man building is completely off topic Listen, I understand that good people can differ with my opinions on a myriad of topics, unfortunately you cannot approach emotionally charged topics the same way

Musicmystery -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/25/2010 2:58:56 PM)
quote: What cha think? The premise is incorrect--people are protesting.

jlf1961 -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/25/2010 3:46:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania This is rather weak, you are trying to marginalize me, not because what I say is incorrect, but because you don't like my observations... Yes, capital punishment is state sanctioned violence and war is state sanctioned violence.. you don't like that fact, I cannot help you. The rest of your wild straw man building is completely off topic Listen, I understand that good people can differ with my opinions on a myriad of topics, unfortunately you cannot approach emotionally charged topics the same way Again, your statement implied that the rise of violent crimes in Britain was a direct result of exposure to Americans in Iraq, your words are undeniable. If that is not what you meant, you should have not said it. If you would look at the various tables posted, you would find that violence, with murder being the prime example, is prevalent around the world, and many of these countries did not send troops to Iraq. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you were trying to make another point. I will also submit to you that even in countries that do not have capital punishment, violence and murder is still a problem. Statistics show that violent criminals escalate with each act, but it would not be prudent to sentence all violent offenders to death. I would suggest that the possibility of parole be taken off the table and stiffer sentences imposed might be a logical approach. However, I maintain that in some cases, the death penalty must be imposed. Mitigating factors are used to decide whether or not the death penalty is sought. It is not like the death penalty is sought in every case. Perhaps you actually should read some of the case files in which the death penalty is or has been sought, to understand those mitigating factors. There have been cases in the last few years that have influenced anti death penalty people to change their minds and support the death penalty in certain cases. As for state sanctioned violence, I find that argument to be more wishful thinking than realistic. Human nature has always been one of violence, the only periods of lasting peace throughout history has come at the point of a sword or bayonet. One good example is the Peace of Rome. Even neutral Switzerland maintains a military force.

juliaoceania -> RE: Murder vs. Adultery (9/25/2010 4:21:57 PM)
I would contribute to a thread about state sanctioned violence and Pax Romana if it was appropriate... Rome was a very violent empire, like all empires are. Not all people glorify violence, have troops in 100s of countries, worship the gun, depict violence in their popular media (movies, etc) gratuitously, and call it "art" ...etc etc etc I am a pacifist, not by my nature, I have a fairly warrior-like nature... look at the culture that produced me, for crying out loud... but I do believe that pacifism is not a complete Utopian ideal, and it may never be reached, but there are many ideals we have that we never completely attain. We will never end violence completely, but that does not mean we throw up our hands and give in to it... we just have very different ideals about what to do about it. A violent society that cheapens life, both foreign and domestic... invades countries, kills women and children and calls that collateral damage.... well that society is sick. "Society" is all of us, and we all make up society. I advocate for a society that doesn't have its military all over the world, doesn't call the loss of innocent life "collateral damage" and I also advocate that society should be humane to the least humane amongst us, not because they deserve it, but because our society deserves to be a less violent one, and our people are negated by state sanctioned murder on many levels, the one that troubles me the most is the spiritual one.. We become that which we resist, we become the terrorist we resist, we become the inhumane to those we torture when we resist, we become murderers when we resist... less resistance means not becoming that which we hate.

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