RE: Born Rich (Full Version)

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Silence8 -> RE: Born Rich (9/23/2010 7:17:17 PM)

By the way, 10-20% might very well be an underestimate.



TheHeretic -> RE: Born Rich (9/23/2010 7:27:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Okay, my disclaimer is that I didn't watch the link.  BUT:

1. There are people whose inherited wealth makes them not need to work.  Trust fund babies, if you will.
2. Some of them (think Paris Hilton) are wastes of humanity. 
3. You believe that their wasteliness is related to their lack of need to work.
4. Your solution is for the government to tax away their inherited wealth.

This assumes that the money is the government's to take.    Even the most pro-tax people will tell you that the purpose behind raising taxes is because the government needs the money for its various projects.  The radical concept that the government decides that you should not have the money scares hell out of me.  Even worse is that the government uses taxes to execute value judgements on its part.

The government is responsible for enforcing laws that define acceptable and unacceptable behavior.  Boorish, selfish behavior is not illegal, and is punished through social means like having one's friends driven away.  As it should be.

Tax policies have been used to drive desired behavior for years - for example, the mortgage deduction helps drive real estate.  But your proposal goes way beyond that and uses tax policy for social engineering - which also scares the hell out of me.



I always enjoy your posts, Steve, but they are even better when you sound like a conservative, instead of a durn lib'ral.



DarkSteven -> RE: Born Rich (9/23/2010 9:58:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

Why not just do away with taxes entirely. Sounds like you don't think Gov't worthwhile anyway. That way we will have an ever expanding economy to infiniti and everyone will be happy in your right wing world. Right?


I am not a right winger, and have never portrayed myself as such.

Frankly, at this point, I feel like we do have enough government.  I would love to see it quit growing.  Here in Colorado, TABOR is a mechanism to prevent state government from growing.  It baselines state spending at the current level, indexed for population change and inflation.  That seems to me to be eminently reasonable.  It does not prevent new programs but mandates that new programs must be paid for by redirecting funds from existing programs.  Kinda like a household that decides to buy a bigger house and must figure out where the money for it will come from.



You just proved my point. Just abolish all taxes and gov't so that we can all live out our dreams in the way we want to. Right? That way you won't have to worry if your local school district is spending an extra 10 dollars on someone else's child.

If your viewpoint isn't right wing what would you call it?


Please reread my post.  I did NOT advocate abolishing anything.  I want to see the government quit growing.  That's a softened Libertarian viewpoint (the standard Libertarian viewpoint is to cut back the government, which you seem to believe that I have advocated for) rather than a conservative viewpoint.  Hell, most so-called conservatives nowadays want to reduce taxes while expanding government, based on some economic perpetual motion machine that postulates that cutting tax rates magically produces excess tax revenues due to overheating the economy.

At what point do you wish to see the government quit growing?  Do you wish to see it keep growing forever?

I'd like to see it stay at the current level of benefits delivered, but see its departments subjected to a cost-benefit analysis and any departments that require more than $10 to deliver a single dollar of benefits get cut back.



Arpig -> RE: Born Rich (9/23/2010 10:55:02 PM)

~FR~
Oddly enough, given my far left leanings, I am opposed to estate/inheritance taxes for the basic reason the Archer brought up...taxes have presumably already been paid on that money, and to tax it a 2nd time is in my view wrong. What a person accumulates after taxes in their life should be theirs to do what they wish with, and the Gvt has no place in the deal, there is no moral justification for what is in fact a Death Tax...such is my rather warped view from way out here on the left.



servantforuse -> RE: Born Rich (9/24/2010 6:26:22 AM)

That amount of money that you earn is taxed over and over again. They tax it on pay day. They tax the interest on any amount saved. If you invest for retirement, they tax the dividends you earn. If you get Social Security, you are taxed once again on money that was confiscated from you.



mnottertail -> RE: Born Rich (9/24/2010 6:43:44 AM)

So, why is the government fucking around?  Have them just confiscate the shit and simplfy the reporting.



servantforuse -> RE: Born Rich (9/24/2010 6:46:31 AM)

I think they are trying to do just that.



mnottertail -> RE: Born Rich (9/24/2010 6:49:13 AM)

Good.  I see no reason to let people pass a pile from generation to generation unmolested. It does not translate into the national good.



DomYngBlk -> RE: Born Rich (9/24/2010 7:12:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

Why not just do away with taxes entirely. Sounds like you don't think Gov't worthwhile anyway. That way we will have an ever expanding economy to infiniti and everyone will be happy in your right wing world. Right?


I am not a right winger, and have never portrayed myself as such.

Frankly, at this point, I feel like we do have enough government.  I would love to see it quit growing.  Here in Colorado, TABOR is a mechanism to prevent state government from growing.  It baselines state spending at the current level, indexed for population change and inflation.  That seems to me to be eminently reasonable.  It does not prevent new programs but mandates that new programs must be paid for by redirecting funds from existing programs.  Kinda like a household that decides to buy a bigger house and must figure out where the money for it will come from.



You just proved my point. Just abolish all taxes and gov't so that we can all live out our dreams in the way we want to. Right? That way you won't have to worry if your local school district is spending an extra 10 dollars on someone else's child.

If your viewpoint isn't right wing what would you call it?


Please reread my post.  I did NOT advocate abolishing anything.  I want to see the government quit growing.  That's a softened Libertarian viewpoint (the standard Libertarian viewpoint is to cut back the government, which you seem to believe that I have advocated for) rather than a conservative viewpoint.  Hell, most so-called conservatives nowadays want to reduce taxes while expanding government, based on some economic perpetual motion machine that postulates that cutting tax rates magically produces excess tax revenues due to overheating the economy.

At what point do you wish to see the government quit growing?  Do you wish to see it keep growing forever?

I'd like to see it stay at the current level of benefits delivered, but see its departments subjected to a cost-benefit analysis and any departments that require more than $10 to deliver a single dollar of benefits get cut back.



Quit growing? When are are able to care for everyone in our society. When a child or a grandparent doesn't have to worry about the cost of the prescription or the next doctors appointment or whether their school is falling down around them. When the size of a CEO's salary deoesn't equal the size of most State Gov't budgets. When I can say my country is an advocate to  help the problems of the world rather than creating more. ......Just a start but if we got there. I think we'd be headed in the right direction.

Can you honestly tell me that looking at the foreclosure list in the paper and the amount of people looking for work makes you think things are going well?



Silence8 -> RE: Born Rich (9/24/2010 7:49:44 AM)

If cutting government means eliminating the military and ending the endless corporate subsidies, yes, that's a great idea.

If it means raising the retirement age to 70, eliminating social security and medicare, and raiding pensions, feel free to go.... yourself.




Silence8 -> RE: Born Rich (9/24/2010 7:54:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

~FR~
Oddly enough, given my far left leanings, I am opposed to estate/inheritance taxes for the basic reason the Archer brought up...taxes have presumably already been paid on that money, and to tax it a 2nd time is in my view wrong. What a person accumulates after taxes in their life should be theirs to do what they wish with, and the Gvt has no place in the deal, there is no moral justification for what is in fact a Death Tax...such is my rather warped view from way out here on the left.



There is no moral or decent form of massive accumulation.

There is no decency in a world of billionaires.

It's simply unjust, and unjustified. The specific methods used to address this issue pail in significance to the issue itself.



Archer -> RE: Born Rich (9/24/2010 8:26:17 AM)

Ah the wonders of the class warfare cries, They didn't earn it, they stole that money from the workers, they defrauded people by making too much profit. The only time you see people saying that a millionaire deserves it is if they are an actor or an athlete or a music artist, then they deserve those millions.

They earn it they paid the taxes on it and continue to pay taxes on any additional income generated from the accumulated wealth. The wealth is theirs, private property, the fruits of their labors passed on to their children. Lets take the quintecencial Trust Fund Baby nearly a waste of carbon and water in my opinion Paris Hilton.

Has she done anything to be worthy of that money in my eyes nope, but the people who risked it all and created Hilton Hotels earned that money and had they given it to Joe Blow from Idaho we'd have all though "Wonderful it's their money let them give it to who they want." But because they choose to give it to Paris Hilton somehow that concept goes out the window.

Without the motivation of providing a better life for their children people will not put forth the same effort to create companies and build lasting business concerns. That would mean less employers. Imagine if they closed up Hilton Hotels when Mr Hilton died how many jobs would have been lost? Had the benefit/ payoff of being able to pass something on to his family not been there would he have built the company at all?

Again I have no use at all for Paris Hilton (even that blowjob video sucked) but the money she has was earned by Conrad Hilton was his to give to whoever he wished.



mnottertail -> RE: Born Rich (9/24/2010 8:51:43 AM)

Again, it is unclear that they have ever paid taxes on it.  

And John Gottis kid needs to go out and earn his own fuckin money as does Keanu Reeves kid.



Moonhead -> RE: Born Rich (9/24/2010 9:19:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

~FR~
Oddly enough, given my far left leanings, I am opposed to estate/inheritance taxes for the basic reason the Archer brought up...taxes have presumably already been paid on that money, and to tax it a 2nd time is in my view wrong. What a person accumulates after taxes in their life should be theirs to do what they wish with, and the Gvt has no place in the deal, there is no moral justification for what is in fact a Death Tax...such is my rather warped view from way out here on the left.


Would these people have such huge estates if they were paying their taxes in the first place, though? There are lots of dodges to get around paying income tax, after all. If people are weaselling out of paying taxes on anything else, an estates tithe on properties at the time of death is going to be the only workable solution.



Archer -> RE: Born Rich (9/24/2010 9:48:32 AM)

Ah the old They must have cheated on their taxes dodge. Since you are not rich and they are no better than you they couldn't have gotten rich unless they cheated.

If you have any proof they cheated then by all means take it to court and impose the fines penalties and taxes. Of course you have nothing to prove they did not pay their taxes, it's a red herring designed to get away from the basic concept that the money was earned by them and thus their property to dispose of as they see fit.







mnottertail -> RE: Born Rich (9/24/2010 9:52:30 AM)

They don't have to cheat to not pay taxes. 

Estate taxes and cap gains got some passes. Nevertheless, your girl paris is not contributing to the economy other than some alchohol and drug rehabs.  Not gonna cut it.  And I am betting better than even money she is not a line responsibility officer of the Hilton Corp. 



Archer -> RE: Born Rich (9/24/2010 10:24:03 AM)

Again she doesn't have to be her tax debt on the money she got was paid for by Conrad Hilton. In fact since he died in what 1979 he estate was taxed at about 70% when he died, you got no claim on the other 30% of what he earned in his lifetime.

My position is simple we have no business taking away someones money when they die they earned it, they paid the legal taxes on it as they earned it it's POST TAX money. Any additional income generated from that money (cap gains, interest, whatever)  now that would be taxable.





mnottertail -> RE: Born Rich (9/24/2010 10:25:05 AM)

Well, goddammit! my father paid taxes all his life, so why am I then?



Archer -> RE: Born Rich (9/24/2010 10:33:51 AM)

Pfffffft logic fail

Paris pays taxes on her income, the capital gains and interest on her holdings, the money she inherited (the Trust Fund) she already had taxed at 70% before she got it how much blood you want??????

(The Estate Tax rate in 1979 when Conrad died was 70%)








mnottertail -> RE: Born Rich (9/24/2010 10:34:29 AM)

LOL, in other news this is a Joe the Plumber arguement.

It went into his foundation and trusts, he didn't pay taxes on the shit.

Conrad left Barron 500K and the rest went to his foundation, after a long, long, long court battle, Barron successfully sued to more or less split it.  He is embarrassed by his granddaughters bullshit, and pretty much ain't leaving her enough to buy a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of. 



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