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RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 2:51:23 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

For something this big, Muse?


Irrelevant, and ignores the point.

Again, it's a legislative issue. If you think it violates the principles behind legislative process, the process laid out by the Constitution, take it to court. The only other issue here is whether you care for the law. Sorry. Still how it works. In this instance, size doesn't matter. Principles are one size fits all. Just ask Scalia.

Health care reform initiative goes back to fucking Theodore Roosevelt. Suddenly now it occurs to someone it could be a Constitutional issue. Yeah.




(in reply to TheHeretic)
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RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 3:07:11 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

After all, the majority of Americans already has government-run single-payer through either Medicare, the military, or various other programs. Only about a third of Americans are subject to the industrialized health insurance companies.




Got something to back this with, Cadena? Your numbers seem a bit high.

I've done a bit of Googling on your numbers, Cadena. You better have something pretty good, because what I'm finding says you are... let's just go with, "not a credible or competent source."

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 9/25/2010 3:54:35 PM >

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RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 3:29:32 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		It is going to court, Muse. I suspect it isn't going to pass muster, but after that Kelo eminent domain case, God only knows.

Everybody with a lick of brains and honesty knows that Obamacare is a stepping stone, and some of us cynics think the real purpose is to speed up the chaos and collapse, and force even more drastic reform. Which will spur even more challenges in the court.

If the supporters are so sure of themselves and their cause, why such fear to the idea of officially making this part of our social compact, instead of trying to slip it in through everything except the front door?

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
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RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 4:04:04 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I'll suggest you have another attempt with the "excess verbiage" up there, RML.

I'll also suggest that I nailed your position in my previous reply, and you will now make every effort to talk about something else, and do it in bad faith.


Gee Richie, I thought I was talking about the topic.

But as usual you resort to whining instead of addressing my question, because you don't have an answer.

Let me refresh your memory on the question.

We have elected representatives who have already represented us by voting on the issue.

So why is it that because it is something you do not support you feel it is necessary to take it out of established procedure in the hopes of getting your preferred result?

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RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 4:13:58 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Single payer has always struck me as the biggest invitation to fraud imaginable, quickly followed by the spiral of increased bureaurocracy and lowered efficiency as we try to plug the endless varieties of holes and scams.



Yet in every country that has it there doesn't seem to be many complaints.

But of course, they are just ignorant of the superior efficiency we have in our health care system.

USA, USA!  We're number #1! 

(because we say so and are totally ignorant of how the rest of the world lives)

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RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 4:14:43 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

So why is it that because it is something you do not support you feel it is necessary to take it out of established procedure in the hopes of getting your preferred result?




My desired result, RML, is a real discussion, and that the informed will of we the people be respected. Why are you afraid of that?

Maybe you missed it in the OP you obviously failed to comprehend, but I haven't made up my mind about this issue.



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 4:42:56 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

So why is it that because it is something you do not support you feel it is necessary to take it out of established procedure in the hopes of getting your preferred result?




My desired result, RML, is a real discussion, and that the informed will of we the people be respected. Why are you afraid of that?

Maybe you missed it in the OP you obviously failed to comprehend, but I haven't made up my mind about this issue.




Then let's do that.

What exactly do you find so troubling about this legislation?

I mean that as an honest question, because I do not see many negatives about it.





< Message edited by rulemylife -- 9/25/2010 4:49:11 PM >

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RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 4:47:02 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Rich let's switch places and then we'll see how eager you are to start over on HCR rather than moving forward from where we are now.

It was perfectly legal for an insurance provider to drop my entire company (11 employees) to keep from having to pay for my dialysis much less transplant. If it wasn't for Medicaid, single payer government health care, I would be looking at certain bankruptcy, got about 40k in the bank and invested, each of 3 weekly dialysis treatments gets billed at about $1500, and then death from a treatable condition.

The reform law is weak sauce but it is a start. The end as any rational person can see is single payer like the rest of the civilized world.

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RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 5:02:44 PM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
So why is it that because it is something you do not support you feel it is necessary to take it out of established procedure in the hopes of getting your preferred result?

My desired result, RML, is a real discussion, and that the informed will of we the people be respected. Why are you afraid of that?
Maybe you missed it in the OP you obviously failed to comprehend, but I haven't made up my mind about this issue.


I'm all for a real discussion, on a concept like the 'Health Care' as an amendment. I just hold zero confidence, that under a Republican Congress, it would be 'Of the People, By the People, For the People'. But instead 'Of the People, By the Slaves, For the Corporation'. Republicans really have destroyed their credibility on Health Care over the last decade.

If they wanted Health Care, or, deal with it, because its becoming highly expensive for ordinary Americans to afford; why did the issue never come up when they controlled Congress?

Likewise, if they wanted Americans to take them seriously in the discussion, why spew false, misleading, and complete lies regarding the Health Care Debate?

Finally, why was the proposal they gave to America, as challenge to President Obama's ideas, completely lame?

Their ideas went over, about as well as the 'Pledge For America' a day ago. It was an abysmal failure on their part, as their ideas (or lack there of) did nothing to address what Americans were dealing with. It treated the issue as 'non important' to America's problems. In essense, they completely insulted Americans suffering legitimate issues.

As it stands, unless Republicans come to the table with some really well thought out ideas, no one will take them seriously. Would be on the scale, of a catholic proving to an atheist, that God exists...with... scientific data that was easily verifiable. They'll have to come forward, with ideas, that are good, on the books, and for Americans in practice. *ALL Americans*, not just the upper 2% of Income Tax payers. Frankly, that just isn't going to happen. The GOP has done a very good job, of being the 'Party of No'. No comprise, no thought, no ideas, no compassion, no credibility.

Democrats may not have perfected the Health Care Reform Act of 2010, but its a good few steps in the right direction.

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RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 5:02:56 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


Everybody with a lick of brains and honesty knows that Obamacare is a stepping stone, and some of us cynics think the real purpose is to speed up the chaos and collapse, and force even more drastic reform. Which will spur even more challenges in the court.

If the supporters are so sure of themselves and their cause, why such fear to the idea of officially making this part of our social compact, instead of trying to slip it in through everything except the front door?


Of course it is a stepping stone.

No one ever tried to hide that.  If you remember, it was originally put forth as a single-payer system but was compromised to what we ended up with due to Republican opposition.

Now you and other conservatives are trying to say there was deception involved which is a ridiculous and unfounded claim.





< Message edited by rulemylife -- 9/25/2010 5:05:36 PM >

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RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 5:05:31 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife


I mean that as an honest question,



You have quite a ways to go before that will be credible. It's besides the point anyway. This thread isn't about the current reams of legislation. This is about the larger issue of the proper relationship between the government and the healthcare of the people.

Unless you are coming from a position that Obamacare is the perfect law, and will stand forever, then we aren't done talking about that relationship just because Joe Biden thinks something is a big fucking deal. The fight isn't over yet. If the talking point of the day from AP is to be believed, many Americans want more gov't involvement. Why so terrified of locking it down?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 5:13:56 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife


I mean that as an honest question,



You have quite a ways to go before that will be credible. It's besides the point anyway. This thread isn't about the current reams of legislation. This is about the larger issue of the proper relationship between the government and the healthcare of the people.

Unless you are coming from a position that Obamacare is the perfect law, and will stand forever, then we aren't done talking about that relationship just because Joe Biden thinks something is a big fucking deal. The fight isn't over yet. If the talking point of the day from AP is to be believed, many Americans want more gov't involvement. Why so terrified of locking it down?


I don't feel a need to prove myself as being honest to one of the most disingenuous posters on this board.

You consistently evade direct questions and try to change the topic of even your own threads, as this post is a prime example of.

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RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 5:25:49 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joetherwhy would they need goverment's help?



um because they destroyed the economy and no one can afford it anymore?


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"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 5:32:33 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

So why is it that because it is something you do not support you feel it is necessary to take it out of established procedure in the hopes of getting your preferred result?




My desired result, RML, is a real discussion, and that the informed will of we the people be respected. Why are you afraid of that?

Maybe you missed it in the OP you obviously failed to comprehend, but I haven't made up my mind about this issue.




The problem always goes back to the same boring theme.

Its broke.  Its been broke for a long time.

Fixing broke with more broke does not make things better.

If you had 3 million bucks would you really care if you had to pay for an operation here and there.  no.

Fix the economy not sink it deeper.  That will solve a plethora of of not only problems in the US but in the world.  Unfortuinately makes for shitty banter on a rag thread huh....


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 5:59:51 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife


I don't feel a need to prove myself as being honest




Denial is cheaper than therapy, RML. Did they give you a prescription for that?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 6:08:31 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
If you remember, it was originally put forth as a single-payer system but was compromised to what we ended up with due to Republican opposition.




You accuse me of being disingenuous right after posting this nonsense as established fact? What's the current breakdown of the House? Or is "Republican opposition" to be taken as meaning "Democrat incompetence?"

And this isn't the point of the thread, RML. You went whining when your dp thread didn't stay on your preferred level of discussion, but here you are trying to drag this into the weeds. Why are you so afraid of the subject, RML? That's the question you keep running from.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 6:34:49 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
Status: offline 		That's quite a bit of partisan spin for someone claiming to be up for a real discussion, Jo.

That's one of the nice things about laying a foundation for this according to Article 5. It easily takes years for this process to run. No one Congress, and very likely, no one President is going to see it through.

What's the old saying? It's amazing what you can accomplish if you don't care who gets the credit?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 8:01:20 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife


I don't feel a need to prove myself as being honest




Denial is cheaper than therapy, RML. Did they give you a prescription for that?


I'm willing to discuss the issue whenever you are Richie.

Don't keep me waiting.

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RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 8:05:23 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline 		How about a "no money for offensive arms" amendment?
Or, "Corporations are on their own" Amendment?
Or a "medical marijuana" amendment?
Maybe a "no fishing on Sundays" amendment?

Let's just go ahead and have an amendment for everything. That way, everything will be Constitutional.

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"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

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(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 8:14:27 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


You accuse me of being disingenuous right after posting this nonsense as established fact? What's the current breakdown of the House? Or is "Republican opposition" to be taken as meaning "Democrat incompetence?"

And this isn't the point of the thread, RML. You went whining when your dp thread didn't stay on your preferred level of discussion, but here you are trying to drag this into the weeds. Why are you so afraid of the subject, RML? That's the question you keep running from.


It is nonsense?

Then why was there any compromise?

If the Democrats were able to do what you claim than the Republicans would have been a non-issue for the past few years and every Democratic proposal should have sailed through Congress.

By the way, what exactly is the point of the thread? 

Because as always you bounce around from one incoherent point to another.

So let's try and narrow it down,

It seems you want a constitutional amendment to do something.  I have yet to discover what that something is.

I think it has either something to do with health care or the DMV, I'm not sure which.


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Profile   Post #: 40
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