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How much is a life worth? - 9/27/2010 9:32:09 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline 		I think this really gets to the heart of the health care debate.

Do we really want to decide that at some point a person who wants to prolong their life is an economic liability?



$93,000 cancer drug: How much is a life worth?

BOSTON – Cancer patients, brace yourselves. Many new drug treatments cost nearly $100,000 a year, sparking fresh debate about how much a few months more of life is worth.

The latest is Provenge, a first-of-a-kind therapy approved in April. It costs $93,000 and adds four months' survival, on average, for men with incurable prostate tumors. Bob Svensson is honest about why he got it: insurance paid.

"I would not spend that money," because the benefit doesn't seem worth it, says Svensson, 80, a former corporate finance officer from Bedford, Mass.

His supplemental Medicare plan is paying while the government decides whether basic Medicare will cover Provenge and for whom. The tab for taxpayers could be huge — prostate is the most common cancer in American men. Most of those who have it will be eligible for Medicare, and Provenge will be an option for many late-stage cases. A meeting to consider Medicare coverage is set for Nov. 17.

"I don't know how they're going to deal with that kind of issue," said Svensson, who was treated at the Lahey Clinic Medical Center in suburban Boston. "I feel very lucky."

For the last decade, new cancer-fighting drugs have been topping $5,000 a month. Only a few of these keep cancer in remission so long that they are, in effect, cures. For most people, the drugs may buy a few months or years.

Insurers usually pay if Medicare pays. But some people have lifetime caps and more people are uninsured because of job layoffs in the recession. The nation's new health care law eliminates these lifetime limits for plans that were issued or renewed on Sept. 23 or later.




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RE: How much is a life worth? - 9/27/2010 10:10:10 AM   
mnottertail


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watch for the republican death squads, coming to you in november.........

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RE: How much is a life worth? - 9/27/2010 10:51:49 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline 		But but but there are no death panels.

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RE: How much is a life worth? - 9/27/2010 12:25:04 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

But but but there are no death panels.


You mean there are?

Sister Sarah was right all along?

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RE: How much is a life worth? - 9/27/2010 3:50:09 PM   
defiantbadgirl


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Wilbur, the only DEATH PANELS are from PRIVATE INSURANCE COMPANIES. They have proven this time and time again by refusing to cover what they call PRE-EXISTING CONDITIONS and REFUSING TO PAY FOR LIFE SAVING TREATMENTS BY LABELING THEM EXPERIMENTAL!!. According to the article, Bob Svensson, the cancer patient, said he didn't think the benefit was worth the money, MEDICARE PAID FOR IT. That hardly sounds like a death panel. Since Medicare was willing to pay for a drug that only extends life for a short amount of time, I'm sure they wouldn't hesitate to pay for even better treatments unlike private insurance companies that only care about their bottom line. Insurance companies are pre-meditated murderers. It makes no sense that they're allowed to stay in business when other pre-meditated murderers are executed. I hope they go out of business. We need universal health care, not universal health insurance.


< Message edited by defiantbadgirl -- 9/27/2010 3:52:14 PM >

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RE: How much is a life worth? - 9/27/2010 3:59:12 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

Wilbur, the only DEATH PANELS are from PRIVATE INSURANCE COMPANIES. They have proven this time and time again by refusing to cover what they call PRE-EXISTING CONDITIONS and REFUSING TO PAY FOR LIFE SAVING TREATMENTS BY LABELING THEM EXPERIMENTAL!!. According to the article, Bob Svensson, the cancer patient, said he didn't think the benefit was worth the money, MEDICARE PAID FOR IT. That hardly sounds like a death panel. Since Medicare was willing to pay for a drug that only extends life for a short amount of time, I'm sure they wouldn't hesitate to pay for even better treatments unlike private insurance companies that only care about their bottom line. Insurance companies are pre-meditated murderers. It makes no sense that they're allowed to stay in business when other pre-meditated murderers are executed. I hope they go out of business. We need universal health care, not universal health insurance.



You get what you pay for. No reason health care should be any different than any other commodity.

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RE: How much is a life worth? - 9/27/2010 4:03:31 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
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From: None of your business
Status: offline 		Personally I wouldn't approve a 93,000 claim for a treatment that will add a few months of life.

If that is what people want healthcare to evolve in on a national level, well that is ridiculous.

The post says his medicare supplement paid for it, which is a private policy, while medicare decides if paying 93,000 for a few months is viable.


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RE: How much is a life worth? - 9/27/2010 4:06:25 PM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		the price is a death panel all on its own



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RE: How much is a life worth? - 9/27/2010 4:13:26 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

You get what you pay for.


That depends where you live.

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RE: How much is a life worth? - 9/27/2010 4:20:09 PM   
defiantbadgirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

You get what you pay for. No reason health care should be any different than any other commodity.


You get what you pay for? Are you saying people who have paid premiums for years only to have their insurance company refuse to pay for life saving treatment are getting what they paid for? If you want to see what people get from what they pay for, watch Sicko. Why should health care be any different than primary education or your local fire and police department? Life should never be viewed as a commodity.

_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


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RE: How much is a life worth? - 9/27/2010 4:23:15 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

You get what you pay for. No reason health care should be any different than any other commodity.


You get what you pay for? Are you saying people who have paid premiums for years only to have their insurance company refuse to pay for life saving treatment are getting what they paid for? If you want to see what people get from what they pay for, watch Sicko. Why should health care be any different than primary education or your local fire and police department? Life should never be viewed as a commodity.


Insurance companies do not refuse to pay for anything their contracts specify will be paid for, and should not be expected to.

The difference between primary education or police and fire services vs health care is the freeloader problem. There are societal benefits to those services that everyone should be expected to share in the cost of. Health is the individual's problem, not societies problem. Life is not a commodity, health is.

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RE: How much is a life worth? - 9/27/2010 4:30:56 PM   
defiantbadgirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

You get what you pay for.


That depends where you live.


Not in the United States thats for sure. Sir and I plan to move to Canada and go through the steps to become citizens if things don't change. I'm my father's only daughter and I hate to move so far away, but I feel like by living in the US, I'm playing russian roulette with my life.

_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


Collared by MartinSpankalot May 13 2008

(in reply to Politesub53)
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RE: How much is a life worth? - 9/27/2010 4:32:16 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

The difference between primary education or police and fire services vs health care is the freeloader problem. There are societal benefits to those services that everyone should be expected to share in the cost of. Health is the individual's problem, not societies problem. Life is not a commodity, health is.


You need to think about what you are saying here. If someone isnt paying for the emergency services, then they are also freeloading. You seem to be suggesting you cant die in a fire but illness is somehow different.

"Life is not a commodity, health is"........ Thats a contradiction in terms to try and justify your claim.

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RE: How much is a life worth? - 9/27/2010 4:35:12 PM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		It's going to get uglier....

Pharma companies are betting heavily on "biologicals"- soups of large biomolecules. These preparations use animals for manufacture, such as mice. Drugs such as monoclonal antibodies are being used for cancer, autoimmune diseases, and even infectious diseases. While the prices on these preparations are falling, generics are not an option- the FDA is licensing manufacturing technologies- not the end products which are very difficult to fully characterize (I said they were a soup.) The manufacture of these compounds is much more expensive than the typical small molecules which have been the staple of pharma companies for decades. Biologicals now account for 1/7th of the pharma industries sales (might be up to 1/6th) the sales of these compounds are growing quickly. While the cost per dose is dropping, it's still over 20x the cost of small molecules at a minimum (average cost of a pill is $2) So big pharma are pushing these therapies- even as health care costs drive us all to the poorhouse.

While the theory of spending whatever it takes is noble, the reality is that the cost of keeping this one guy alive for four months would pay for more than 4 years of educating a kid.

We have some tough choices ahead...

Sam

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RE: How much is a life worth? - 9/27/2010 4:35:38 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

You get what you pay for. No reason health care should be any different than any other commodity.


Which is exactly where the problem is, trying to define health care as a commodity.

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RE: How much is a life worth? - 9/27/2010 5:04:45 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

The difference between primary education or police and fire services vs health care is the freeloader problem. There are societal benefits to those services that everyone should be expected to share in the cost of. Health is the individual's problem, not societies problem. Life is not a commodity, health is.


You need to think about what you are saying here. If someone isnt paying for the emergency services, then they are also freeloading. You seem to be suggesting you cant die in a fire but illness is somehow different.

"Life is not a commodity, health is"........ Thats a contradiction in terms to try and justify your claim.


I agree on emergency services...they should be paid for by the individual or they are free loading. That has nothing to do with freeloading on fire and police, however. Police cannot be expected to identify who has or hasnt paid for services when reacting to a situation, therefore everyone needs to pay for it. Saving someone's home from fire becomes a freeloading issue not when the fire is confined to their premises, fuckem if they didnt pay. The problem is that left unchecked the fire can spread to others who have paid for their services.

No, its not a contradiction in terms. Life and health are not the same thing. And justifying an opinion is a ludicrous request.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
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RE: How much is a life worth? - 9/27/2010 5:06:21 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

You get what you pay for. No reason health care should be any different than any other commodity.


Which is exactly where the problem is, trying to define health care as a commodity.



There is no problem whatsoever in treating health care as a commodity..if thats what you meant. If you actually did mean "defining" it as a commodity there is still no problem. Poof...its a commodity.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

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RE: How much is a life worth? - 9/27/2010 5:08:32 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

It's going to get uglier....

Pharma companies are betting heavily on "biologicals"- soups of large biomolecules. These preparations use animals for manufacture, such as mice. Drugs such as monoclonal antibodies are being used for cancer, autoimmune diseases, and even infectious diseases. While the prices on these preparations are falling, generics are not an option- the FDA is licensing manufacturing technologies- not the end products which are very difficult to fully characterize (I said they were a soup.) The manufacture of these compounds is much more expensive than the typical small molecules which have been the staple of pharma companies for decades. Biologicals now account for 1/7th of the pharma industries sales (might be up to 1/6th) the sales of these compounds are growing quickly. While the cost per dose is dropping, it's still over 20x the cost of small molecules at a minimum (average cost of a pill is $2) So big pharma are pushing these therapies- even as health care costs drive us all to the poorhouse.

While the theory of spending whatever it takes is noble, the reality is that the cost of keeping this one guy alive for four months would pay for more than 4 years of educating a kid.

We have some tough choices ahead...

Sam


Correct. and government is not the appropriate entity to make those decisions.

_____________________________

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to the barking of the dogfox,
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RE: How much is a life worth? - 9/27/2010 5:10:40 PM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		You have a different entity in mind for such a discussion?

If theoretically, we are a democracy- we are the government.

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RE: How much is a life worth? - 9/27/2010 5:14:25 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

You have a different entity in mind for such a discussion?

If theoretically, we are a democracy- we are the government.


Yes, a vastly different entity. The individual interacting with a free market.

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