a hypothetical

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lally2 -> a hypothetical (10/1/2010 5:37:26 AM)
if the accepted 'norm' for all Dominants was that they should be completely devoid of any human compassion for their submissve and that to be any other way would not be a true expression of DOMINANCE in this world of ours what would we as submissives do. allowing for the fact that submissives require a degree of Dominance and BDSM and all else that makes us come here to these places in search for our counterparts - would Ds and Ms still thrive. i know its hypothetical but its a thought prompted from another thread and the dozens or so similar to it that crop up from time to time. that a slave or submissive isnt 'true' if they have any sort of choice or option before any relationship even begins or has any right to end it. what if there were real auctions and we were sold like cattle - would we submit ourselves to that or would we pass, given as ive said, that we are here for the obvious reasons that Ds Ms and BDSM float us. if there was no other option open to us, would we still be here. and to the Dominants, would you prefer this to be the case, on some level - would you still be here. to be honest im not sure that i would be, but then again, i suppose there would always be the hope that id land up with a kind, caring Master.

DarkSteven -> RE: a hypothetical (10/1/2010 5:43:10 AM)
Then subs would face the choice between accepting that, going for vanillas, or just chucking the whole dynamic altogether. As for me, I'm me. I have feelings and care for others. With me in control, of course. I don't want a complete brat, but I don't want a doormat either.

Selectivelight -> RE: a hypothetical (10/1/2010 5:53:11 AM)
I am reminded of "A Clockwork Orange"... if we are removed from choice, thus having no alternative but to do "good things" can we possibly be "good people"? I don't want someone to kneel at my feet because they didn't have a choice in the matter. If I can not inspire that kind of devotion from my partners, what good does it do me to pretend I have anything more than an empty, hollow shell of what it is I really seek? It would in many ways destroy what BDSM is to me. Which makes this a fascinating question for further probing on my part.

LadyPact -> RE: a hypothetical (10/1/2010 6:39:49 AM)
You did read on that other thread that I'm promoting an upcoming slave auction, right? No, it's not the selling of anyone for permanent placement, but I do find the coincidence funny. (Before anyone has a fit, it's not the actual selling of people. It's a role play night.) quote: if the accepted 'norm' for all Dominants was that they should be completely devoid of any human compassion for their submissve and that to be any other way would not be a true expression of DOMINANCE in this world of ours what would we as submissives do. At one time, I would have said that there was some truth in this statement. Even ten years ago, this would have been an accurate mindset for a good number of people in the lifestyle and the way they approached running a dynamic. As we are today, I believe that number has dropped significantly. There's been an evolution, of sorts, that Dominants don't have to be devoid of compassion or love. While there certainly are still dynamics out there which are based on the concept of being "in service" rather than emotion, I do find that they are becoming fewer. In fact, even those that start based on that arrangement, it's becoming more widely acceptable that fondness or love will become a part of those dynamics as time goes on. quote: i know its hypothetical but its a thought prompted from another thread and the dozens or so similar to it that crop up from time to time. that a slave or submissive isnt 'true' if they have any sort of choice or option before any relationship even begins or has any right to end it. I can't cop to this one personally. None of My experiences have included any lack of choice at least at the very beginning. It may have been exactly one choice in the beginning (be owned by Me or don't) and one choice in the duration (obey or be released) but that choice is still available. Of course, with this, we have to factor in the concept of internal enslavement, but being that I have no legitimate recourse if someone should release themselves, I still see it as choice. quote: and to the Dominants, would you prefer this to be the case, on some level - would you still be here. In My case, I would probably have to say yes. I base this on a couple of things. To start, while it isn't especially My preference, I do know that a number of My wants can be fulfilled in a dynamic that is service based, rather than emotionally based. This is a situation where poly becomes a huge benefit. I already have love, affection, and all of that kind of stuff coming from another relationship. It's not that My life is lacking in those areas, so it's not a requirement that they also be present in My dynamic. Granted, I'd probably be singing a much different tune if I was monogamous. Also, being the Dominant, I would hypothetically have more options on My side. If I acquired someone, I could let them go just as easily, and acquire another. It wouldn't be Me who didn't have the power in the situation to change it. This would be different than the other side of the kneel where it would be hope for the best, but stuck in it if it wasn't liked.

MIsabelah -> RE: a hypothetical (10/1/2010 7:24:01 AM)
A slave or a submissive makes that choice to serve the person under the guides and rules of that person. Which is why it is so important for that sub/slave to really know who they are before jumping into the lifestyle with anyone. I have seen many of sub/slaves who go into the lifestyle for the unhealthy reason. Then they end up with some jerk who uses, misuses, and abuses them not only in the fantasy but in real life. The sub/slave thus becomes programmed. A healthy dominant would probably want their sub/slave to talk to them. Communicate their feelings and thoughts. Even in the Gorean lifestyle, a slave's thoughts and feelings are often looked upon with great interest. My point a dominant or Master or Mistress should be a loving one, an open one, and mostly one who sees their slave/sub as a human being first and then as property second. [:)]

pompeii -> RE: a hypothetical (10/1/2010 8:18:02 AM)
Slavery existed thoughout history and always will exist. People exist who are devoid of feelings for another. Yet, more often than not, compassion develops, even from the owner to the owned.

IronBear -> RE: a hypothetical (10/1/2010 9:38:47 AM)
For me the only way I want a slave kneeling at my feet begging to be collared and offering her submission, is if she comes understanding what it is she is begging and of her own free will. I am minded of another thread asking about brainwashing/programming/conditioning. 'Tis a mighty fine line between wooing a slave or even training her and programming her in my view. It is one I treat carefully which of course I like the wooing stage of getting to know her and learning what I may about her. As for caring and having feelings for her, if they are not there she will never be permitted to kneel and beg for my collar. I will take a bullet for any of mine.

crazyml -> RE: a hypothetical (10/1/2010 10:15:03 AM)
I'm kinda with DS, Selective and IB... I can't imagine there'd be any satisfaction to be gained from that kind of Dominance. I've no doubt that there are D-types that are devoid of compassion, and there may e S-types for whom this type of dominance is the bee's knees, but I'm not that sort of D-type, and wouldn't be at all interested in that sort of S-type.

HisFirstAngel -> RE: a hypothetical (10/1/2010 11:24:15 AM)
This is hard for me to answer hypothetically. I think I'd really have to be in the position to know what I would do. I would like to say I would just go vanilla. I like to think I am strong enough to survive on my own, without the control of a D-type. I think that my maternal instincts would take over, and I would want to be around for my children. Total slavery would not permit that. However, I have been told on more than several occasions that I am submissive to the point of slavery and self destruction. I do agree with that. It would really depend which instincts are stronger and take over- maternal or submissive?

leadership527 -> RE: a hypothetical (10/1/2010 12:04:47 PM)
I've struggled with answering this question and I think it's just too hypothetical to have a real answer... if I saw such thinking prevalent in BDSM-land, I'd conclude that BDSM'ers were too fantasy-based to usefully exchange ideas with.

gungadin09 -> RE: a hypothetical (10/1/2010 12:09:21 PM)
If that was the only option, i would probably leave. pam

sexyred1 -> RE: a hypothetical (10/1/2010 12:26:40 PM)
Whether possible or hypothetical, there is not a chance in hell that I would choose to be in a dynamic where the person does not care for me and worse, is devoid of all human compassion for me and others. I was in a situation that developed slowly into this once and I would rather die than ever engage in that again. So to answer the question, I would be vanilla rather than choose an uncaring D/s dynamic.

Twoshoes -> RE: a hypothetical (10/1/2010 12:52:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 I've struggled with answering this question Me too, Jeff. Before I attempt to answer, lally2, are you sure you didn't mean 'empathy' instead of 'compassion'?

agirl -> RE: a hypothetical (10/1/2010 12:58:36 PM)
Some hypothetical questions are worth spending time on, but this isn't one of them. Dominants devoid of human compassion, real slave auctions... we are here for the obvious reasons that Ds Ms and BDSM float us. if there was no other option open to us, would we still be here. The fact that CM has a forum means I can chat with others, so yes, it's quite useful but if there were no other option....... erm , well....... I'd be doing other stuff. Other than that. GO CM.......LOL agirl

Malkinius -> RE: a hypothetical (10/1/2010 1:49:03 PM)
{fast reply} Greetings all.... From all I have observed in the last decade plus I have been seriously studying the M/s and D/s dynamics, I would have to say that most s-types are where they are because they are looking for love. How that love is expressed varies widely. There are very few (by percentage) whose only desire is to serve and love really doesn't matter. The OP is right that even when something starts out that way it often develops into an emotional connection. Historical slavery is pretty much the opposite. That is why it was external enslavement instead of the internal enslavement most people here practice. With IE comes an emotional connection that does go both ways to some extent but mostly in the s to D direction. I am certainly not going to argue that individual exceptions to the above exist. I know that they do. I am speaking of majorities and averages here. Whether or not in "the old days" it was otherwise, I really don't know. I wasn't there. I only know what I have read. In some ways I believe that to be true but I am certain it was not true in all cases. Now...which way is the proper way? I leave that to the people involved. If things for some theoretical reason moved back to external enslavement I would probably still be a part of it. That is because my emphasis on what I do is on instruction, control and service, not love. I do care a lot for those I work with. The more I do with them the more I care. That is not the same thing as love. Be well.... Malkinius

kiwisub12 -> RE: a hypothetical (10/1/2010 2:14:21 PM)
My relationships have been based on affection, caring and eventually, love. Would i want to be in a relationship without any of those?.................... no, i have been in a marriage like that, and never again. I want my mates caring , compassionate .... and sadistic. At the very least they have to like me, and be willing to show it, at most, love me and be willing to show it.

thatsub -> RE: a hypothetical (10/1/2010 2:16:10 PM)
If we didn't care for emotional connections we would not be hooking up and later breaking up so much. If I kneel before someone willingly and honestly, I will do much more for them than for a person who I put up only a facade for. Submissives have just a many choices as Dominants, if they don't care about emotional connections.

CaringandReal -> RE: a hypothetical (10/1/2010 2:42:53 PM)
quote: what if there were real auctions and we were sold like cattle - would we submit ourselves to that or would we pass, given as ive said, that we are here for the obvious reasons that Ds Ms and BDSM float us. if there was no other option open to us, would we still be here. Before I can answer I need to know something else about the hypothetical world. Would the people bidding on us be actual dominants, assuming there was a way to determine such a thing, or could they be just anybody who happened to have the money to buy a slave, like all the insecure types you meet on CM who just think it's cool to call themselves dominant, or like vanilla businesspeople who just want labor to work in their factories or sweat shops or priate fishing ships? Could they also be people who run resturants that serve fine delicacies like human meat? Could the evil-minded and vindictive slave of a rich owner buy you because she's his favorite and he gives her money and because she wants to frustrate another slave by not letting her ever come in contact with a dominant for the rest of her life? In other words, in this what-if world would there be any screening of bidders?

lovingpet -> RE: a hypothetical (10/1/2010 2:50:43 PM)
I think the hypothetical is a little flawed actually. Stay or go wouldn't enter into it. I wouldn't have that choice. It would be like being in a country whose borders are secured by military and where the citizens are being plucked and placed into slavery. There's no getting out if you don't like the practices or, if there is, it is rare and extremely dangerous. I would liken this to a person who simply has a submissive personality. They are going to have to survive in foreign territory and in a constant shootout with themselves in order to escape. That seems like a trap in and of itself to me. Of course external (historical, traditional model) slavery had to depend greatly on force and violence, especially at the beginning (in most cases, not all). The owner may not ever develop any feeling for the slaves as people, but a smart one will see them as an investment and capital that he does not wish to waste by lack of maintenience or total loss (death). A smart owner will also breed dependence and eventually some sense of loyalty over time as well sometimes even pretending to care about the slaves beyond their utility to him. That is a move for the slave psychologically and is far more successful in eliminating runaways. Want runaways? Keep relying solely on brute force and they will run the second they are free once fear breaks (and it does eventually). But then there is another model of slavery equally or nearly as ancient as the above and that is one of choosing to surrender one's life in the service of another because of love, devotion, respect, or plain gratitude toward the owner. This is modeled in the pledging of one's life to one who rescued them or showed some great kindness. They were equally enslaved...same contract and everything, but they rarely ran away and nearly always were well cared for whether or not loved. Usually that which brought the slave to pledge his service was also the bond that held them in emotional closeness as well. THIS is what I liken a good M/s relationship to. It wasn't some great kindness to be bothered to dominate me. Not at all. It is that this person won me over with his basic decency and personal integrity. THAT is someone I can serve willingly and come to not be able to picture life not serving that person. He may or may not love me (mine does), but he will respect my humanity and my worth both as a person and as his property. So, no, even without the basic flaw of the hypothetical given, I would not desire a dynamic like the one proposed in most cases. I will not be forced. When I speak of no choice from the very beginning, I am meaning that I have discovered someone among all the rubble that takes my breath away by his sheer person, not his dominance, toy wielding capability, power, influence, or any other such thing. In presence of such a person, I have automatic respect and deference to what he might see as the right way. Hopefully, my recognizing those qualities in him and respecting him for them means that he is also seeing me in a similar light. That is why my opinion and concerns matter regardless of warm feelings such as love or infatuation. Additionally, I doubt that a pure force dynamic would nourish him either. Pretty much anyone can be a bully. Not everyone can command respect. It is much more gratifying to own that which you've earned. And it is also much more fulfilling to harvest that which you cultivate and grow over time and effort. That's just my take. lovingpet

DomImus -> RE: a hypothetical (10/1/2010 4:08:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lally2 i know its hypothetical but its a thought prompted from another thread and the dozens or so similar to it that crop up from time to time. that a slave or submissive isnt 'true' if they have any sort of choice or option before any relationship even begins or has any right to end it. I question whether it is really worth getting your panties in a wad because someone else's vision of all of this doesn't match your own.

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