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RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 8:11:11 AM

AnimusRex

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway
I just hope that when the Republic of Texas actually DOES secede that Louisiana, Arkansas and Oklahoma goes with them.

Hmm...so when I made the post about how the GOP has embraced and been possessed by the demon spirit of the Confederacy, I wasn't just being snarky?

Wow...who woulda thunk.

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RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 8:18:26 AM

lockedaway

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"OK, so looking though the replies, what is the message that comes through?

1. True Capitalism, or True Conservatism, the ideology preached by the modern American conservative movement is not based on actual real world examples that we can study and emulate; instead, it is an abstract theory that exists only in books.

2. According to Lockedaway, the belief system of the conservative movement is that the rich will get ever richer and the poor will get ever poorer, and this is good.

Is this a correct intepretation of the comments?"

No, it is just the same stupid drivel you have been writing all along. A piss poor attempt to mischaracterize that only reveals duplicity. How is that? Is that correct so far?

Capitalism....mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....I do love it so. You go out and compete but you are your own greatest natural resource. You do your job well or conduct your business well and you enjoy greater and greater success. Hopefully you will be one of the world's great philanthropists like Winfrey, Gates, Carneighe, Thomas and so many other great men and women....capitalists all of them....who gave back voluntarily rather than through a confiscatory government.

Will the rich get richer? Yes, genius, they will. This was pointed out on either the first or second page of this thread. Money MAKES money. Money EARNS all by itself. If you have enough money, it will make tons of money for you without you ever lifting a finger. Now...let's be honest. There probably isn't one of us on this site that is making more than $100,000.00 per year in interest income. In fact, anyone who is making that much or more is in the top 1% of our society.

Will the poor get poorer? Some will. This was addressed earlier on also. If I go out and develop a gambling addiction or a drug/alcohol addiction or I father numerous children that I have to support via court order or I am too lazy to get out of bed, etc. I will get poorer. Ben Stein said that the fastest ways to poverty are as follows:
1. Develop an addiction,
2. Fail to obtain at least your high school diploma,
3. Father children out of wedlock or children you can't afford to raise.

Remember....in this country, there is socialism for the super rich. There is socialism for the super poor. But there capitalism for the rest of us.

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RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 8:27:24 AM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

I don't know of any nation that has both widespread middle class prosperity and liberty, which doesn't also have strong labor unions, business regulation and progressive taxation.

Once again,look to Lichtenstein. Yes, a small economy, but the supposed "successes of socialism" are also small economies, and they are facing challenges that they are unlikely to overcome. You can watch Lichtenstein over the next decade...a social/economic laboratory custom built for you.

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RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 8:28:05 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex
I don't know of any nation that has both widespread middle class prosperity and liberty, which doesn't also have strong labor unions, business regulation and progressive taxation.

That's because there aren't any. The nations that do have a strong expanding middle class and an economy that seems to generate wealth as a whole are all a lot more into public spending than the UK or the 'States. Look at Scandinavia: most of the countries up there haven't even noticed that there's a global recession on, and they all have extensive welfare programs for the unemployed, socialised or subsidised medicine, higher tax rates for the big earners, protectionist trade tariffs, all that stuff the libertarian right sees as ghastly evils that are guaranteed to reduce investment and murder prosperity.
Now why should all of this socialist tyranny be holding economies on a steadier course and generating more wealth than free market capitalism is elsewhere in the Western world?

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RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 8:30:05 AM

lockedaway

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In response to post 61 by Animus Rex

This was a typically stupid post from you that says nothing. What are you implying about the desire to live in a place where I actually am endowed by my Creator with certain inalienable rights, those being the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? What is wrong with that? If this country no longer adheres to those precepts, why shouldn't I be able to go to one that does? Obama talks about inalienable rights in his speeches but in the last three speeches he has given, he does not say where those rights come from. I don't know what you are implying with the confederate flag. I guess just another stupid, weak and emotional argument from you. There is a growing number of black conservatives out there, pal...don't ignore them.

I asked you earlier, why are you a liberal. What do you hope to achieve through it? If you confiscate the money of the top earners, they will stop earning. They will leave. Then YOU and others like you will be fucked. So what, exactly, are you hoping to accomplish? Tell me....do you really think it is fair for some gargantuan government to take 50% or more of what you earn? ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION for a change.

< Message edited by lockedaway -- 10/3/2010 8:32:02 AM >

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RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 8:34:29 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

I don't know of any nation that has both widespread middle class prosperity and liberty, which doesn't also have strong labor unions, business regulation and progressive taxation.

Once again,look to Lichtenstein. Yes, a small economy, but the supposed "successes of socialism" are also small economies, and they are facing challenges that they are unlikely to overcome. You can watch Lichtenstein over the next decade...a social/economic laboratory custom built for you.

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RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 8:37:59 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway
If you confiscate the money of the top earners, they will stop earning. They will leave. Then YOU and others like you will be fucked.

Can you cite any examples of this actually happening? I don't believe you had big business fleeing your country when Eisenhower was taxing them at a far stiffer rate than we've seen since the '50s. The exodus began under Reagan, who was making a point of cutting tax rates on the highest earners to lure these worthies into the 'States.
Which obviously worked brilliantly, didn't it?

< Message edited by Moonhead -- 10/3/2010 8:42:20 AM >

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RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 8:40:35 AM

AnimusRex

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway
I asked you earlier, why are you a liberal.
What do you hope to achieve through it? [snip]
So what, exactly, are you hoping to accomplish?
Tell me....do you really think it is fair for some gargantuan government to take 50% or more of what you earn? ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION for a change.

Happy to!

What I hope to achieve via liberalism is the same as what I had hoped to acheive via conservatism, which is an egalitarian society where there is a strong stable middle class, where the gap between rich and poor is not as wide as today. A society based on tolerance for different lifestyles and beliefs and the natural diversity of culture is celebrated not shunned. A government that only goes to war when it is attacked and returns to its shores when the battle is over.

Is it fair for a government to take 50% of what I earn? Yes, if I am in the top 2% of income earners, and it gives me back the society I mentioned above; I think that is a fair price to pay for living in a just and civil society.

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RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 8:44:22 AM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway
I asked you earlier, why are you a liberal.
What do you hope to achieve through it? [snip]
So what, exactly, are you hoping to accomplish?
Tell me....do you really think it is fair for some gargantuan government to take 50% or more of what you earn? ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION for a change.

Happy to!

What I hope to achieve via liberalism is the same as what I had hoped to acheive via conservatism, which is an egalitarian society where there is a strong stable middle class, where the gap between rich and poor is not as wide as today. A society based on tolerance for different lifestyles and beliefs and the natural diversity of culture is celebrated not shunned. A government that only goes to war when it is attacked and returns to its shores when the battle is over.

Is it fair for a government to take 50% of what I earn? Yes, if I am in the top 2% of income earners, and it gives me back the society I mentioned above; I think that is a fair price to pay for living in a just and civil society.

Unfortunately 50% doesnt even come close to what it would take to fund just O-care, forget crap and tax. The top 2% of income earners are already taxed at more than 50% marginal in total. And thank you for picking my pocket. some societies would cut your fucking hand off for it.

The Great Society = The Great Mediocrity

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 10/3/2010 8:46:33 AM >

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RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 8:45:48 AM

lockedaway

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"Can you cite any examples of this actually happening? I don't believe you had big business fleeing your country when Eisenhower was taxing them at a far stiffer rate than we've seen since in living memory. The exodus began under Reagan, who was making a point of cutting tax rates on the highest earners to lure these worthies into the 'States.
Which obviously worked brilliantly, didn't it?"

Sure, tons of examples! You are kidding, right? Jersey City, NJ was a slum until NYC defaulted on their short term notes in 1974. That is when NYC overhauled their tax system and began raping the public. The sales tax in NYC is 14% . Jersey City is now one of the largest cities in the U.S. Hoboken has also exploded.

Who is the basketball star that was supposed to play for NY but then went to Florida? He left because of the difference in the taxes. Rush Limbaugh was based in NYC and is now based in Florida. Why? The tax code. Why is Florida where so many people go to retire? The tax code. Same for Tennessee, which does not tax pension income.

Bloomberg, Mayor of NYC, argued against Gov. Paterson's tax increases on the wealthy because, as Bloomberg so eloquently stated: "If you tax them, they will leave." New Jersey has had a mass exodus from the state and yet our population has not really decreased. Why? Because as poorer and older residents of NJ leave because they cannot or refuse to pay the new state income tax put in place by that miserable, fucking, low bred theif---John Corzine--we have had our population replenished by New Yorkers.

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RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 8:49:37 AM

Moonhead

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What part of "fleeing your country" don't you understand? Moving to a different State isn't quite the same thing.

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RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 8:51:55 AM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

"Can you cite any examples of this actually happening? I don't believe you had big business fleeing your country when Eisenhower was taxing them at a far stiffer rate than we've seen since in living memory. The exodus began under Reagan, who was making a point of cutting tax rates on the highest earners to lure these worthies into the 'States.
Which obviously worked brilliantly, didn't it?"

Sure, tons of examples! You are kidding, right? Jersey City, NJ was a slum until NYC defaulted on their short term notes in 1974. That is when NYC overhauled their tax system and began raping the public. The sales tax in NYC is 14% . Jersey City is now one of the largest cities in the U.S. Hoboken has also exploded.

Who is the basketball star that was supposed to play for NY but then went to Florida? He left because of the difference in the taxes. Rush Limbaugh was based in NYC and is now based in Florida. Why? The tax code. Why is Florida where so many people go to retire? The tax code. Same for Tennessee, which does not tax pension income.

Bloomberg, Mayor of NYC, argued against Gov. Paterson's tax increases on the wealthy because, as Bloomberg so eloquently stated: "If you tax them, they will leave." New Jersey has had a mass exodus from the state and yet our population has not really decreased. Why? Because as poorer and older residents of NJ leave because they cannot or refuse to pay the new state income tax put in place by that miserable, fucking, low bred theif---John Corzine--we have had our population replenished by New Yorkers.

Same in California, with the cost of proposed environmental regulations driving several industries out of the state and more to come if they arent repealed. As far as companies leaving the country, you can just listen to the clown in the White House. At least once a week he vows to tax the companies that have moved offshore to avoid US taxes. Problem is it doesnt work, all you do is tax the American people who want to buy those goods. In reality there is no such thing as a "corporate income tax", it is all borne by the consumer (with the exception of extremely price elastic goods).

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RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 8:54:23 AM

hertz

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quote:

What are you implying about the desire to live in a place where I actually am endowed by my Creator with certain inalienable rights, those being the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

Surly this isn't much better than:

quote:

Obama talks about inalienable rights in his speeches but in the last three speeches he has given, he does not say where those rights come from

.

Your creator doesn't give you inalienable anything. Your state does.

quote:

If this country no longer adheres to those precepts, why shouldn't I be able to go to one that does?

Like where?

quote:

If you confiscate the money of the top earners, they will stop earning. They will leave.

See the comments re: Sweden and Norway. I understand Norway has more dollar millionaires per capita than anywhere else in the world, but it taxes individuals at a higher rate than the US. You'd hate it.

quote:

Tell me....do you really think it is fair for some gargantuan government to take 50% or more of what you earn? ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION for a change.

I do. It depends on what the money is being used for, but generally, I have no objection to being asked to contribute to the greater good.

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RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 8:55:41 AM

lockedaway

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"Happy to!

What I hope to achieve via liberalism is the same as what I had hoped to acheive via conservatism, which is an egalitarian society where there is a strong stable middle class, where the gap between rich and poor is not as wide as today. A society based on tolerance for different lifestyles and beliefs and the natural diversity of culture is celebrated not shunned. A government that only goes to war when it is attacked and returns to its shores when the battle is over.

Is it fair for a government to take 50% of what I earn? Yes, if I am in the top 2% of income earners, and it gives me back the society I mentioned above; I think that is a fair price to pay for living in a just and civil society."

Then I feel sorry for you. Why? Because it is stupid and unrealistic. First and most importantly, you cannot have an egalitarian society unless ALL PEOPLE are willing to work with equal vigor. Your dream fails RIGHT THERE. And I don't have to say anything more. You ignore human nature. You think you can legislate away sloth or aberrance. It is stupid. Wake up. Oh...I notice that you also never addressed what I said about the Section 8 people being some of the biggest capitalists I ever met. What about that, Sparky?

You put up more drivel about living with tolerance as though this country does not. This is the most tolerant country on earth. Wazza matter, you don't like people opposed to gay marriage even though there are civil unions and domestic partnerships that convey the same rights? Oh...what is it, the whole "don't ask don't tell" thing gets to you? C'mon, does it really bother you that your sexual practices, be they gay, lesbian, transgendered, beastial, bdsm SHOULD NOT FUCKING BE DISCUSSED IN THE MILITARY???? I mean, really, isn't the issue whether or not you can kill or do whatever other job is assigned to you? What is sticking in your craw so much that you want to see a socialist tyranny imposed on your fellow Americans?

I have an idea, you want an egalitarian society? Raise your children, if you have any, to live independtly. Teach a course as a volunteer adjunct at the local high school or community college on archeitecture or life skills. Stop looking for the government to smother brilliance and industriousness. Have a little more faith in your fellow man that resides with you in the most charitable country in recorded, human history.

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RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 8:59:15 AM

hertz

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quote:

You ignore human nature.

Given by the Creator, I presume, along with all the other goodies?

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RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 9:02:25 AM

lockedaway

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"Your creator doesn't give you inalienable anything. Your state does."

You.......oooooo....you are a scary and dangerous man. No...my creator has given me inalienable rights that are recognized by the Founders of my great country and set forth in writing in the Declaration of Independence. And because my rights are inalienable, they cannot be legislated away but someone like YOU. My country respects (or at least respected and encouraged) my God given rights.

And I thank you for proving that you don't know SHIT about what you are talking about. The most millionaires in the world are in the U.S. of A baaaaaaaaby!!!!!!
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millionaire

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RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 9:03:05 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
As far as companies leaving the country, you can just listen to the clown in the White House. At least once a week he vows to tax the companies that have moved offshore to avoid US taxes. Problem is it doesnt work, all you do is tax the American people who want to buy those goods. In reality there is no such thing as a "corporate income tax", it is all borne by the consumer (with the exception of extremely price elastic goods).

Right, and all of these companies have shifted their operations offshore and outsourced their production capacity in the two years since the Kenyan was elected, haven't they? None of them were moving out of the country during the '80s.

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RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 9:04:51 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway
If you confiscate the money of the top earners, they will stop earning. They will leave.

Actually that is not true. Th US had unbelieveably high top tax rates (90%+ was the top marginal rate) during the late 40's and throughout the 50's and we still built enormous wealth and we had vibrant and expanding upper and middle classes.

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RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 9:06:33 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway
And I thank you for proving that you don't know SHIT about what you are talking about. The most millionaires in the world are in the U.S. of A baaaaaaaaby!!!!!!

He said "per capita" not worldwide. There's plenty of countries with a much higher percentage of the population worth over a million than the 'States.

< Message edited by Moonhead -- 10/3/2010 9:07:18 AM >

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RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 9:10:08 AM

lockedaway

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"Right, and all of these companies have shifted their operations offshore and outsourced their production capacity in the two years since the Kenyan was elected, haven't they? None of them were moving out of the country during the '80s."

I think you have potential, so I'm going to work with you. No, no!!! You don't have to thank me. Not yet.

Alright...the last conservative president this country has had was Ronald Wilson Reagan. And he really wasn't as conservative as I would have liked. He wasn't as conservative as Dwight Eisenhower, frankly. Anyway, that being said, after Reagan came H.W. Bush. He was the third president in the last 100 years to herald in "A New World Order". (no such thing, of course) The first president to make that announcement was Woodrow Wilson. The second was Franklin Delano Roosevelt. All of these men were globalists....a deadly and democracy killing theory.

So HW Bush is a globalist (4 year term), Clinton was a globalist (8 year term), W. Bush was a globalist (8 year term) and Obama is a globalist (2 years). Take "liberal" and "conservative" out of the equation and you have 22 years of globalist theory during which time U.S. industry has been leaving this country in DROVES.

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