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RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 9:13:31 AM

hertz

Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
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Thanks, Moonhead.

The reason a 'per capita' figure is significant is because it strips away the effect of population. Of course the US has loads of millionaires - it's a huge place. But some other places have a higher overall concentration of millionaires (ie a greater percentage of them are rich) than the US and, in some cases, these are high-taxation nations. Your claim that wealthy people leave high tax nations is a bit suspect, I think.

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 81

RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 9:14:40 AM

lockedaway

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Joined: 3/15/2007
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"Actually that is not true. Th US had unbelieveably high top tax rates (90%+ was the top marginal rate) during the late 40's and throughout the 50's and we still built enormous wealth and we had vibrant and expanding upper and middle classes."

Ken...Kenny....I love ya! But you come to the table with such a narrow field of focus. Back in the day, the U.S. tax code had tax exclusions for every freaking thing under the sun; the hobby farm, the tax shelters of innumerable variety, multi-family housing tax exclusions....fuck....you name it!!!!!!!!!

Reagan revamped the tax code in an effort to make it less complicated. His revisions were supposed to be revenue neutral...just a faster code to implement. Almost all of those exclusions were written out of the tax code and the top bracket was brought down to either 24% or 28%. I don't remember which. Now...all of those exclusions are still gone and O'scumbag wants a top bracket of 40% which will give us our highest REAL tax bracket in U.S. history.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 82

RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 9:15:53 AM

Moonhead

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Joined: 9/21/2009
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I see.
So you think that you can sustain an argument that has no basis in reality by redefining your terms.
Even by moving the goalposts, you can't get around the fact that the trend to move assets out of the 'States and outsource production started under Reagan. Presumably he wasn't offering big enough tax cuts?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to lockedaway)

Post #: 83

RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 9:19:22 AM

Moonhead

Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway
Reagan revamped the tax code in an effort to make it less complicated.

Close, but no cigar. He dropped tax rates as a bribe to encourage people to vote for him. he'd doubtless noticed how well that had worked for his bitch on the other side of the pond. Of course, in his case there weren't an publically owned services to sell off in order to cover the revenue shortfall, so he started inflating your deficit by farting around with the tax rate.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to lockedaway)

Post #: 84

RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 9:19:22 AM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

quote:

What are you implying about the desire to live in a place where I actually am endowed by my Creator with certain inalienable rights, those being the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

Surly this isn't much better than:

quote:

Obama talks about inalienable rights in his speeches but in the last three speeches he has given, he does not say where those rights come from
.

Your creator doesn't give you inalienable anything. Your state does.

quote:

If this country no longer adheres to those precepts, why shouldn't I be able to go to one that does?

Like where?

quote:

If you confiscate the money of the top earners, they will stop earning. They will leave.

See the comments re: Sweden and Norway. I understand Norway has more dollar millionaires per capita than anywhere else in the world, but it taxes individuals at a higher rate than the US. You'd hate it.

quote:

Tell me....do you really think it is fair for some gargantuan government to take 50% or more of what you earn? ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION for a change.

I do. It depends on what the money is being used for, but generally, I have no objection to being asked to contribute to the greater good.

A large portion of Norway's "millionaire glut" is largely on paper. Most of that wealth is in the form of Norwegian real estate, which is facing its own bubble problems. Another large portion is the increase in the price of oil, and of course there are ME countries with far more millionaires per capita than Norway due to its wealth. Take the shackles off our natural resources and there would be many more millionaires here.

And individual tax rates are irrelevant. It doesnt matter whether you pick the left pocket or the right pocket, the money is still taken. The total tax burden in Norway is only slightly higher than the US, and will be lower than the US if any of the Bush tax cuts are allowed to expire.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 10/3/2010 9:24:37 AM >

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to hertz)

Post #: 85

RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 9:19:27 AM

lockedaway

Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline

"I see.
So you think that you can sustain an argument that has no basis in reality by redefining your terms.
Even by moving the goalposts, you can't get around the fact that the trend to move assets out of the 'States and outsource production started under Reagan. Presumably he wasn't offering big enough tax cuts?"

See...that is why I quote your effusions....so everyone knows what I am responding to. I didn't move any goal posts or redefine any terms, buddy. Now that you have said it, go do your due diligence and prove your statement about the "trend starting under Ronald Reagan". Ok???? Put some facts on the board with some citations.

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 86

RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 9:23:23 AM

lockedaway

Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline

Close, but no cigar. He dropped tax rates as a bribe to encourage people to vote for him. he'd doubtless noticed how well that had worked for his bitch on the other side of the pond. Of course, in his case there weren't an publically owned services to sell off in order to cover the revenue shortfall, so he started inflating your deficit by farting around with the tax rate.

LIAR! Deceptive and duplicitous! You should be ashamed of yourself. I want your mother's telephone number so I can tell her! The tax reform act was done in 1986 during Reagan's second term, genius. Know what? You probably knew that. You just wanted to disseminate false information for those liberal swine too lazy to fact check you.

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 87

RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 9:23:54 AM

Moonhead

Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

"I see.
So you think that you can sustain an argument that has no basis in reality by redefining your terms.
Even by moving the goalposts, you can't get around the fact that the trend to move assets out of the 'States and outsource production started under Reagan. Presumably he wasn't offering big enough tax cuts?"

See...that is why I quote your effusions....so everyone knows what I am responding to. I didn't move any goal posts or redefine any terms, buddy. Now that you have said it, go do your due diligence and prove your statement about the "trend starting under Ronald Reagan". Ok???? Put some facts on the board with some citations.

What, like you did when I asked you to provide examples of businesses who've been driven out of the country (or any country, come to that) by high taxation?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to lockedaway)

Post #: 88

RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 9:26:26 AM

Moonhead

Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Close, but no cigar. He dropped tax rates as a bribe to encourage people to vote for him. he'd doubtless noticed how well that had worked for his bitch on the other side of the pond. Of course, in his case there weren't an publically owned services to sell off in order to cover the revenue shortfall, so he started inflating your deficit by farting around with the tax rate.

LIAR! Deceptive and duplicitous! You should be ashamed of yourself. I want your mother's telephone number so I can tell her! The tax reform act was done in 1986 during Reagan's second term, genius. Know what? You probably knew that. You just wanted to disseminate false information for those liberal swine too lazy to fact check you.

There weren't any senate elections for the whole of his second term in office, then?
He wasn't issuing promises about tax cuts while electioneering for his term?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to lockedaway)

Post #: 89

RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 9:31:59 AM

lockedaway

Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
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You are a liar, dude, period. Reagan campaigned on changing the tax code when he ran against Gerald R. Ford for the primary. It was something he was commited to. You must be a good deal younger than me. You grew up with swine as politicians and you think it is perfectly acceptable to misstate facts and figures to try to prove an argument. Hey...respond to what I said about globalist theory. There are forces in play so much more powerful than what you can presently grasp.

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 90

RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 9:37:47 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

But one can't equate a socialist state (ie Norway) with a totalitarian state (ie north korea) and call them the same thing.

So the Norwegian welfare state is going to be your model of socialist perfection, Yngblk?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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Post #: 91

RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 10:10:09 AM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Close, but no cigar. He dropped tax rates as a bribe to encourage people to vote for him. he'd doubtless noticed how well that had worked for his bitch on the other side of the pond. Of course, in his case there weren't an publically owned services to sell off in order to cover the revenue shortfall, so he started inflating your deficit by farting around with the tax rate.

LIAR! Deceptive and duplicitous! You should be ashamed of yourself. I want your mother's telephone number so I can tell her! The tax reform act was done in 1986 during Reagan's second term, genius. Know what? You probably knew that. You just wanted to disseminate false information for those liberal swine too lazy to fact check you.

Go gentle on moonhead, he's a Brit, and thus impaired. Ignoring him is the best option since he has nothing to contribute to an economic discussion other than the perpetuation of lies and misconceptions.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to lockedaway)

Post #: 92

RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 10:13:56 AM

lockedaway

Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline

You are right, Willbeurdaddy. Moonhead, I apologize. I didn't mean to make it personal in nature. Say, you are a Brit. Why don't you come over here like Stuart Varney and be a good capitalist and help us save our country before it desintigrates altogether? We could use your help.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 93

RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 11:40:30 AM

Moonhead

Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

You are a liar, dude, period. Reagan campaigned on changing the tax code when he ran against Gerald R. Ford for the primary. It was something he was commited to. You must be a good deal younger than me. You grew up with swine as politicians and you think it is perfectly acceptable to misstate facts and figures to try to prove an argument. Hey...respond to what I said about globalist theory. There are forces in play so much more powerful than what you can presently grasp.

Right. So you've just admitted that Reagan campaigned on changing the tax codes, but are still maintaining that he made no attempt to bribe the electorate with tax cuts? That's one or the other, you can't have it both ways.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to lockedaway)

Post #: 94

RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 1:01:23 PM

lockedaway

Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline

"Right. So you've just admitted that Reagan campaigned on changing the tax codes, but are still maintaining that he made no attempt to bribe the electorate with tax cuts? That's one or the other, you can't have it both ways."

Jesus...my apology was out of order, I see. Yeah, Moonhead, Reagan campaigned on it in 1976 and he changed the tax code a decade later without using it as a bribe but as a matter of principal.

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 95

RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 2:19:12 PM

Moonhead

Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline

There were no mentions of tax cuts in '80 or '84, then? He never breathed a word about that while electioneering?

You're drifting off topic, btw: you've still yet to provide any examples of an economy being wrecked by capitalists fleeing a country to escape paying taxes.

(And yes, your apology was completely out of order: I'm not taking backhanded insults from somebody who can't spell "colour".)

< Message edited by Moonhead -- 10/3/2010 2:22:23 PM >

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to lockedaway)

Post #: 96

RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 2:23:04 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway
If you confiscate the money of the top earners, they will stop earning. They will leave.

Actually that is not true. Th US had unbelieveably high top tax rates (90%+ was the top marginal rate) during the late 40's and throughout the 50's and we still built enormous wealth and we had vibrant and expanding upper and middle classes.

That was due to, ..."expense accounts."

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 97

RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 2:24:39 PM

Moonhead

Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline

If you have nothing constructive or coherent to add to a debate, perhaps you should try staying out of it?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 98

RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 2:37:53 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

If you have nothing constructive or coherent to add to a debate, perhaps you should try staying out of it?

Kinda like your approach to discussion of US domestic affairs and politics?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 99

RE: Where is the Conservative utopia? - 10/3/2010 2:56:50 PM

Moonhead

Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

If you have nothing constructive or coherent to add to a debate, perhaps you should try staying out of it?

Kinda like your approach to discussion of US domestic affairs and politics?

Not really, no.
It's not like I try to turn everything into a bizarre rant about immigration or how evil taxes are, after all.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 100

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