RE: Gorean bashing and Exstensiary service (Full Version)

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Leonidas -> RE: Gorean bashing and Exstensiary service (10/4/2004 4:34:12 PM)

Well, damn, now I have to take back what I said to bottominwa. Well, bottominwa, I was lyin'. There is the odd lady or gent on here who, rather than exchanging, discussing, and even arguing over the merit of ideas, would rather salve some wound in their own character by running down someone else. All I can tell you, slave girl, is it takes all kinds.

Terry, I have to say, I expected better of you. Yeah, you can go do a "quick web search" and dig up just about anything if you're on a mission to take a snide swipe at something. If I cared to spend 15 minutes or so, I could do the same and regale you with some snippets from the wild and wacky word of online BDSM and similarly say "yeah, there goes a stable bunch". But I won't. To paraphrase a man from a debate long ago, I won't treat you as someone to be taken seriously because you are, I will do so because I am.



LadyBeckett -> RE: Gorean bashing and Exstensiary service (10/4/2004 6:46:43 PM)

quote:

Second, the world of Gor does not exist, nor will it ever - no matter how often folks want to argue otherwise – and yes I have had them try and convince me as to how “real” their lives have become in a gorean sense.


I know as much about "Gor" as I've read in the 1st, and about three paragraphs of the second book, in the "Gor" series. And what I've read on these boards, courtesy of Dread and Leonidas. While fascinated with it, from several angles, I knew from the beginning this was definitly not my personal cup of tea. However, at no time did I ever question the fact that it is a very real lifestyle choice for a whole lot of people. To what degree they have integrated this choice into their life varies, much like other BDSM lifestyle choices would. I don't believe we are qualified to say it doesn't exist unless we've done a thorough study. A hands on kind of thing. I personally have no interest in doing so, but then, I also allow that it's their lifestyle choice and I respect that.




subbiejenn -> RE: Gorean bashing and Exstensiary service (10/4/2004 7:06:43 PM)

quote:

However, at no time did I ever question the fact that it is a very real lifestyle choice for a whole lot of people. To what degree they have integrated this choice into their life varies, much like other BDSM lifestyle choices would. I don't believe we are qualified to say it doesn't exist unless we've done a thorough study.


i have to agree with LadyBeckett ...

i don't think W/we should put anyone down for their beliefs/ Kinks or desires. W/we all make O/our choices in the lifestyle and even if things are "not my cup of tea" doesn’t mean it isn't real or important to someone else. *grins*

i don't know a lot about Gor but it is one thing i have been wanting to learn more of but haven't had the time lately to indulge myself. From what i have seen it is a very respectful lifestyle. When i think of Gor i think of Rituals and once established they can be very powerful and a wonderful bonding between M/s.



EStrict -> RE: Gorean bashing and Exstensiary service (10/4/2004 7:39:53 PM)

I am with Beckett and Jenn,,,, and I think you should still have hope Leonidas. Yes, there will be cases of those who slam just to slam, but you can find such in any topic. When I debate issues of Gor, I do so with the etho's I understand, and some of which I follow, even though I do not use the term Gorean.

Slavery is something that is very well documented here on Earth. It's illegal, and most would call it abhorent and deviant at best. Using Shadow's logic, those who call themselves slaves are not being realistic.

Sadist are cruel and inhumane by definition. Just because there are those who live as such on Earth, does not mean I believe that they are devoid of all feeling which would make them dangerous sociopaths.

I am one that argues Gor often, but I have no doubt is is a lifestyle enjoyed by many and as *logical* and *valid* as those that call themselves any of the many other titles that are judged as *wrong* by those who know no better....



ShadowHwk -> RE: Gorean bashing and Exstensiary service (10/5/2004 5:55:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

Terry, I have to say, I expected better of you. Yeah, you can go do a "quick web search" and dig up just about anything if you're on a mission to take a snide swipe at something. If I cared to spend 15 minutes or so, I could do the same and regale you with some snippets from the wild and wacky word of online BDSM and similarly say "yeah, there goes a stable bunch". But I won't. To paraphrase a man from a debate long ago, I won't treat you as someone to be taken seriously because you are, I will do so because I am.



Leonidas,

Well said, as always. I probably shouldn't post after days like yesterday. There were few too many barbs in there even for me - and I will shortly be editing my post a bit. And you are, of course, correct. There is just as much BDSM flaky stuff on the web as well.

Peace and Light
Terry



gitta -> RE: Gorean bashing and Exstensiary service (10/5/2004 11:27:02 AM)

Well, after giving this thread room to grow and much thought i wish to attempt to shead another light. Way back when i became a slave (ducks the flames from all those who say slaves do not exist) the books of Gor were just beginning. If i am not mistaken i took my first slave collar in the year of the fourth book. Believe me when i read the first book and said to myself what a bunch of sci-fi crap. This was something i had no time for, i had a Master to serve.

Years later i became interested in the ways of the Gorean peoples. Rather than listen to one group and one thought process i began to seek information from a variety of venues. A few months ago i began reading the books again, this time looking past the science fiction and deeper into the ethos. What i found and am still finding is a set of values that i believe in, and always have.

This thread is about bashing Goreans...well if one places themselves in a postion of debate, one should be ready to stand and defend their honor.

Gorean principles are as Leonidas stated earlier, "Home Stone, Caste, Honor, Love of Earth, and "Natural Order"." Well i was not Gorean but did live all of these principles...as the cherished slave of a member of a motorcycle club. Did i expect to be bashed when on a run with 30 or 40 burly men on loud motorcycles..YES, did i care..NO. What i did and do know is that if we present in a manner others do not see as socially correct, we will be shunned. If i was in my PTA, FFA, 4H, mommy clothes i expected and got the respect of my presentation. Still i was the same person, just dressed differently.

Now how is belonging to a group of people who ride bikes like being a Gorean (she giggles here)? We had our Home Stone...it was the clubs colors, and the brothers would fight to the death to defend them. We had our castes, they were the members jobs and or positions. We had much honor/personal integrity, we took care of any in need, be they member or not. We had love of earth, took care to leave things better than when we came. We understood "Natural Order" knowing each had their place and respecting that. We also had a motto so to speak "When we do wrong no one forgets, when we do right no one remembers" What we don't do is judge others, as no one is better than another, just different. So according to these basic ideas we are much the same.

As for speaking third person, that is a personal choice. The books use both first and third often in the same paragraph for example: "She smiled up at me. she kissed the side of my boot. "A girl knows," she said, "Master." she again kissed the side of my boot, in the stirrup, and again looked up at me. "I know I deserved to be whipped," she said, and she looked at me in awe, and admiration......" Tribesmen of Gor, page 364. When before like minded folks using third comes naturally for me, yet when delivering a speech on the merits of out-patient services for the mentally ill i would never use third person. There is a time and a place for everything, speaking in third person is something not many know or find pleasing.

OK have rambled more than enough here, bottomline....You can not please everyone nor should you expect them to please you. This world would be much better if all could allow each other to be who and what they are and not try to place our own values on another.



magiqual -> RE: Gorean bashing and Exstensiary service (10/5/2004 3:35:41 PM)

"bottominwa", could you define "Exstensiary"? It seems to be a key part of your post, yet no dictionary that I have (up to and including the OED) has it, nor do any on-line sources.

Actually, that points up the largest trouble I encounter when dealing with "Goreans" (of most every stripe) online -- we can't seem find a common basis for communication. Leonidas claimed that Home Stone, Caste, Honor, Love of Earth, and "Natural Order" are fundamental Gorean principles, but it's going to be hard for us to find common ground until we unpack the meanings of these terms.

Every mythology develops its own unique shorthands, and many relationships develop their own personal mythology. My Domme and I have one around Lois McMaster Bujold's "Vorkosigan" books; when she says "I request and require you to..." in email, which is how the emperor issues an order that must be obeyed, I know this is no ordinary request. [;)] We know the line between our mythology and the outside world, and are comfortable explaining it when she makes some aside to me in public.

The trouble starts when people can't (or won't) step back from their belief systems long enough to let other people into the discussion. It doesn't matter what you identify as -- unless you can meet an outsider at least halfway, you're not going to be understood (and, alas, probably criticized.) Telling a non-Gorean that you value your "Home Stone" is about as comprehensible as telling the masses that the key to life is "being washed in the blood of the lamb" (a Christian allegory for forgiveness) or "seeing past the illusion of separation" (a key teaching in Soto Zen.) But if you can take a step back and define those without recourse to other elements in your subculture, you stand a chance of being understood.

Taking that step back and defining your worldview may be exceptionally difficult (he says, after struggling for 15 minutes to define "the illusion of separation"), but also exceptionally rewarding. You'll probably have to take some of society's stereotypes out and hold them up to the light. (Look at "A Male Submissive's Declaration of Principles" for a beautiful example.) My own web site begins by questioning society's belief that "to dominate" is the greatest expression of power:

quote:

And yet, let me propose a different thought -- one that says there's greater strength in daring to be open and connected, in opening one's self to challenges, discoveries, and the risk of being hurt. For men, the greater strength may not lie in enforcing control, but in being able to offer their submission.


From there, I go on to paint many pictures (in words) on what it's like to be a self-aware and capable male submissive. More than one person has written to me later to say he (or she) found self-acceptance through reading there.

So, my challenge to the articulate Goreans here is this -- if you want understanding, and less "bashing", try making yourself more understandable. Can you explain what a "Home Stone" is (and its meaning to you) in ways that someone not in your subculture could understand? What is purpose of being in a "Caste" and how does this empower someone? (And, is there a sense of Nobilesse Oblige among the higher castes? I hope so!) Can you explain "Love of Earth" in a way that I could see the resonances to my own care for this green land? Show us the places where we can meet and begin to build mutual understanding.

- magiqual (a/k/a elfin)



Gor -> RE: Gorean bashing and Exstensiary service (10/5/2004 3:56:47 PM)

I could say that I have NO idea why non-Gorean D/s people of whatever stripe get so worked up over a concept and a way of life that they claim to neither "care" about nor "know very much about", but that would be more than somewhat disingenuous.

Unfortunately, having taken part in many such discussions, I have heard in one form or another the three or four flavors of anti-Gorean flaming. I can even sympathize with one or two of the arguments-- on their basic logic. Be that as it may-- "Methinks the lady doth protest too much".

For the sake of brevity I will concentrate on purest form for Goreans-- "natural order". Without digressing overly much I will point out that "natural order" D/s has existed longer than any other form of D/s (because of it's basic nature, as well as, it's primal condition).

When most outsiders refer to the usage for the term gorean, they are generally wholly ingnorant in any meaningful way of the fact that they are including two, almost diametrically opposed social groups: the Goreans who more or less roleplay the books of a certain author and "natural order" Goreans.

"Natural order" Goreans existed long before the word gorean was even codified into a D/s term. They existed before the term D/s existed and indeed before terms like Dom and sub were even in usage. The TERM Gorean came into usage FOR those of "natural order" after their lives were intellectually explored by an author, (under the pen name) Norman-- a sociologist (who admitted he was NOT himself a "natural order" member).

The term Gorean was APPLIED in an after-the-fact way to describe those of "natural order". Much, much later-- and more or less in tandem with the onset of the online phenomenon, came what we refer to as "roleplay goreans"--- the genesis of which was not from the already well established community of Goreans in the REAL WORLD, but rather from those Doms and subs from outside the community of natural order who thought to either accrue some cache or kink. The irony is that more frequently it is this latter group which the broader D/s community criticizes (usually for being fake or living in a fantasy world).

Finally, though perfectly legitimate to go off on some flame or rant about something you basically have no clue about-- (and I support a person's right to be a clueless boob...btw) it seems a tad intellectually dishonest to attempt to speak authoritatively on the subject. I accept the fact that people when they feel threatened in their beliefs --they somehow feel that it is not sufficient to merely live what they believe and hold as "sacred" (so to speak), but rather feel impelled toward chipping away at things outside themselves to rationalize their own belief system. HOWEVER... Cmon!! A little honesty-- at least with one's self!

From the point of view of a natural order Gorean what you may hold as sacred MIGHT BE stupid or childish or "playing" (even pretentiously vanilla), but in My experience such a Gorean would defend your right to be so-- not judging you publicly for your lacks (according to His understanding of what IS)-- and so I invite you if not to refrain from talking out of your arse... at least to show a portion of the generosity and respect that is afforded you from His side.

HIMSELF



gitta -> RE: Gorean bashing and Exstensiary service (10/5/2004 5:35:30 PM)

Gor,

Excuse me if i look quite confused, but i am not in any way shape or form flaming the Gorean lifestlye, rather i find it a wonderful way to live and happen to be one of the more supportive members of this board in relation to Goreans. I used the "natural order" in that manner because i was quoting another, who was quoting yet another.

You seem to be ranting and raving to the wrong person, and by the way thanks for the invitation >" i invite you to stop talking out of your arse.." but no thanks, i will say what i want when i want child. I simply stated MY experience in relation to being bashed. My using bikers related to Goreans is simple, and perhaps when you calm yourself, then do some research on real life Goreans you may understand the reasoning.

John Frederick Lange, Jr. aka John Norman earned his Doctorate in philosophy not sociology. While he has writen papers on both, he does identify as a philosopher. May i suggest a web search both on John and the origin of BDSM, because as far as i know your factoids are not quite accurate about the timing of the use of the terms Gorean and D/s...I do know is that the term D/s used long before Tarnsmen of Gor was writen. What i also know is how to do a web search to get my facts straight when i profess to use fact, rather than opinion.

All in all i stand true to my earlier post, which is based on three and one half decades in this lifestyle. I do not really care what anyone else thinks of it, it is simply what i think and what believe.



Gor -> RE: Gorean bashing and Exstensiary service (10/5/2004 6:10:13 PM)

gitta...

My comments were intended to apply themselves to the entire spectrum of most recent comments to the orginal thread. yours happened to be the last addtion to the subsequent comments...

NONE of any references made were directed at you or indeed any particular individual-- rather as aboved stated.

Notably Lange/Norman-- though degreed in Philosophy chose in the limited area of our discussion as well as his fictional works to apply himself to societal conjuncts... ergo a sociologist (of course if we are being anal we can say that a degree is necessary to seriously discuss any subject or be an authority on any such).

HIMSELF



Gor -> RE: Gorean bashing and Exstensiary service (10/5/2004 6:34:16 PM)

gitta...

Now, THIS is a reply specific to you-- I don't expect you to know everything and therefore excuse your ignorance of RW Goreans (since you are not part of the community it is impossible for you to speak intelligently on the subject-- but that's ok).

your bona fides as someone involved in the "lifestyle" for xyz years not withstanding-- it has no bearing on knowledge of a subject that is not represented either in your experience or for instance by web bloggers generally. (a big clue-- knowledge existed before there was a computer and will exist even if they all magically disappeared tomorrow and to make an arguement on the basis of "doing a google" MIGHT not seem so comprehensive on that basis.

My comments were related to experiences OUTSIDE of cyberspace (PERSONAL aka 1st Person experiences)-- predating online play significantly.

I do underscore that though you are incorrect in your assumptions, lacking in personal experience of things Gorean and that your conclusions don't particularly flow from your premises-- I appreciate the fact that within your spirited debate you extend something of a sense of "live and let live".

I am sure you are a credit to your dom.

HIMSELF



gitta -> RE: Gorean bashing and Exstensiary service (10/5/2004 8:18:21 PM)

Gor,

Smiling softly, You have no clue as to how much real experience i have in Gorean real life, i said i do not CLAIM to be Gorean and You feel a need to insult me?? When i read a post with my name on it i take it to be aimed toward me. Just because one does not shout their devotion of Gorean living from the rooftop does not mean they have no experience. What real Goreans live is the same as what i have lived, just we happen to not follow all of the serves, silks, and dances...which is what i am now learning.

My real life experience is what i speak of, i happen to have never been into the BDSM sceen, aside from watching others play. Online is new to me, have only been online for a couple of years now, what i know i know from living it. I have always been a slave and always will be a slave.

i have shown you respect, not because of what you are, but because of what i am, la kajira proud and loved. i shall maintain still that i stand by my posts. Any further debate is wasted here as far as i can see.

By the way i have never belonged to a Dom, i have however been owned by one Master for 26 years, we parted at his death. My current (Gorean) Master is quite pleased with my knowledge and skills.



EStrict -> RE: Gorean bashing and Exstensiary service (10/5/2004 9:39:33 PM)

this is addressed to *Gor*.... this really isn't a slam, it's more an issue of confusion. How can someone who wants to *support* the beliefs that many have issue with (since the etho's are from a series of science fiction books) believe that it can in any way *help* the cause to use a pronoun as their name,,,, especially one that makes them less of a person such as *himself*?



Deleted User -> [Deleted] (10/5/2004 10:21:26 PM)

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Leonidas -> RE: Gorean bashing and Exstensiary service (10/5/2004 10:25:45 PM)

Hello magiqal,

I probably should wait for an articulate Gorean to answer you, but they're most likely too smart to respond. I have done a great deal of writing on these boards, and if you read through it, you won't see a whole lot of obscure references to home stone, caste, etc. I mentioned those things on this thread when directly responding to a Gorean girl. You don't see a whole lot of that by me here because I respect that this is not a Gorean forum. It is a mixed environment where things are and ought to be discussed that are interesting to the broader D/s and BDSM communities. But, since you asked, I'll explain one of these things briefly, as best I can, to show you why we don't talk about them much on forums like this.

quote:

Can you explain what a "Home Stone" is (and its meaning to you) in ways that someone not in your subculture could understand?


A Home Stone is a rock. Just a rock. Every Gorean household has one, on the mantle, or somewhere that it can be seen. Saying that it's just a rock is a little fascitious, like saying that a flag is a piece of cloth. A Home Stone represents sovereignty. We believe, and take very seriously, the notion that a man (or woman) should be the sovereign within their walls, and take seriously what it means to be sovereign. We think that unless one is sovereign within their own walls, they are not capable of allegance. They are, in effect, just slaves. They pay their taxes, obey laws, contribute (or not) to their society just becasue it is required of them by a faceless, institutionalized governmental master. They are not doing so as free and sovereign men and woman. We believe that allegance extends in larger spheres of influence from home, to neighborhood, to city, to state, to nation. We don't just pledge allegance to the flag, we pledge first to our neighbors, and then our city, and so on. I personally have stopped intruders from ripping off my neighbors. I pick up trash on the street in my city if I see it. I have thrown an unruly gang-banger out of my local starbucks. When someone asked if I was crazy, doing somthing like that, I said something that was probably completely nonsensical to them: "This is my city".

I confess a sense of fierce pride just writing about Home Stones, and I could go on and on filling in the details that I just glossed over above. It's something important to me. As you can see, however, it has absolutely nothing to do with BDSM, D/s, or anything that would be of much interest to the readers of this particular message group. The same can be said of most of the other principals that I touched on in the earlier post. Taken together, they comprise what we would call Gorean character, philosophy, or ethos. Among ourselves, we seldom talk about what it takes to be a good "Dominant". We talk about what it means to be a free Gorean.

If there were a Gorean section on these boards, I and the other Goreans might discuss these kinds of things extensively for the benefit of those who are new and curious about us. Since there isn't, having many threads at all on these kinds of topics would be pretty annoying to those who are here to swap BDSM and D/s lifestyle tips. About the best that can be said about Goreans in the context of this message board is that they share some interests with the BDSM community because they happen to keep slaves. To say much more moves away from our commonality with the BDSM mainstream, and into areas that again, aren't of much interest to most of the people here.

I hope this helps.



Sundew02 -> RE: Gorean bashing and Exstensiary service (10/5/2004 11:48:01 PM)

Knock, Knock....I will try again. Not being as inflamatory as the other posts. I will once again ask my question....Natural Order or Gorean.....I would like to know IF women are ever treated as equals? One post mentioned that a Female can have a Home Stone as well as a male. Does this imply that she can own slaves and be considered master of her home as well as a male?
Since we are told repeatedly on any post about the Gorean lifestyle that we would not be interested in information,since we are not Gor. I would beg to differ with that point of view. To stop inquiring, to cease seeking knowledge is for me, the equivalent of death. I will always be curious, continue to ask questions and to learn about even things and philosophies that I would not embrace. Sundew



stormiKnightBEAR -> RE: Gorean bashing and Exstensiary service (10/6/2004 6:44:29 AM)

Sundew, this girl believes that (from her heart not from the books) that yes, as a FW (free woman for those that do not know or what some call a Free Companion) it comes with the entitlement to own slaves and your home.

It is unfortunate that the majority of the clubs that this girl knows do not have many if any FW in them. This girl thinks that is because of lack of FW calling themself Gorean. But this girl would like to hope that any FW would be welcomed by the group as a contributing member who has to opportunity to offer something different (as it should be in any group).

This girl knows without question that you would be welcomed by her Master if you would like to come to Camp Harigga sometime. Though right now with Master's job duties for the next 8 weeks or so there will be little time for puter chatting,
stormi will provide the link should you want it, just email stormi @ [email protected]

There are many opinions in this thread as there always seems to be when Gorean, Gor, or silks are mentioned. The thing that bothers this girl is the statement below taken from one of the post:

quote:

I respect the rights of consenting adults to take part in this lifestyle, I retain my right as a human being to call those people crazy.


The question is what gives anyone regardless of lifestyle, beliefs, color, or sex the right to address or publicly call how someone else lives their life "crazy people"?? Does that mean that someone has the right to sit in judgement how you as a Master/Mistress/Dom/sub/slave live your own life be it Gor/Leather/BDSM??

Thanks again Sundew, and know you do not stand alone this girl is sure [:)]

stormi
property of Master Bear



Leonidas -> RE: Gorean bashing and Exstensiary service (10/6/2004 7:21:50 AM)

Hello Sundew,

It wasn't my intention, really, either open or cut off a discussion about Gorean philosophy. I was just pointing out that this is probably not the forum for those discussions because that isn't what the vast majority of people come here to read about and discuss. I'll be happy to answer your question.

quote:

I would like to know IF women are ever treated as equals? One post mentioned that a Female can have a Home Stone as well as a male. Does this imply that she can own slaves and be considered master of her home as well as a male?


A woman absolutely may possess a Home Stone, be the sovereign of her home, demonstrate allegance, and keep slaves if that is what she wants to do. From a Gorean's perspective, the question of whether she may isn't very interesting. The question is whether she will. We consider the notion that equality is an entitlement to be a slave's mentality. To attempt to reduce everyone to an arbitrary common denominator in the name of fairness so that everyone can be "equal" makes slaves of all. Do not protest that you are equal. Demonstrate that you are equal, and you will be considered equal. For a woman to do so she must honestly value freedom above any desire that she might have for her mate to be the sovereign of her house. In their heart of hearts, some women do.

Since you mentioned "Natural Order" I'll say a few things about it. A man who protests that he is entitled to equality (or dominance), rather than demonstrating the same is no better from a Gorean's perspective that a woman who does so. It is still a slave mentality, regardless of whether the one espousing it has a penis, or not. If you want to be equal, be equal. Do not protest that someone else must be less so that you can be equal, or accept you as an equal, just because you say so.

Men evolved to be stronger, more naturally agressive, and more prone to assert dominance than women. Women evolved to value dominance in their mates. Men run faster than women. A Gorean would argue that all three of these statements are true when considering men and women as a whole. A Gorean would also argue that all three might be false if you are considering any individual man, or woman, or the relative qualities of any one man with respect to any one woman. The question, again, isn't entitlement. It is self-actualization and the pursuit of happiness. If a man is prone to assert dominance (which we think that most men are) he should do so, and seek submission in his mate (and/or slave girls). He shouldn't refrain from or curb his natural desires, because a political ideology says he should. Similarly, if a woman desires a mate who is strong, and dominant, and is worthy to be the sovereign in his house (and we believe that most women, though not every woman does), she should seek him out, and offer him her submission. She shouldn't refrain from doing so, because someone said that she should, or because she fears her own desire to submit.

Men who assert that "Natural Order" entitles them to dominance just by virtue of being male are actually expressing a rather un-Gorean view point, as I explained above. We do believe that our propensities for things like dominance and submission are biologically determined (as opposed to being a personal "kink" that developed as an accident of one's personal history), and, like how fast we run, are markedly different between the sexes by virtue of how we evolved as a species. That is something to be said about the sexes as a whole, and what you are likely to naturally desire as a man, or a woman. It says little about individual men and women.

It's a big subject, Sundew. One that we could easily discuss for a long time. I hope that what I've said here is enough to give you the answer that you wanted.



Sundew02 -> RE: Gorean bashing and Exstensiary service (10/6/2004 10:50:38 AM)

To Leonidas and stormi, Thank you both for your replies. Learning is what keeps us young and thinking. I am of course, always interested and believe it or not excited to learn about anything new. As to dominance being a state of mind, I totally agree. But being an extremely practical person I have never found it productive to bash my head against a brick wall. If something I have no control over is a deterrent to my accomplishing something, such as my age or sex, I see no use in persuing it. I am the type of person that follows "nothing ventured, nothing gained". Again thank you both for responding. Sundew



Gor -> RE: Gorean bashing and Exstensiary service (10/6/2004 12:33:27 PM)

sundewo2...

Curiosity is a wonderful thing. The search for understanding laudable.

Under the online/roleplay irl Gor community *yes* females can be what you would probably call equals. They are free, not owned and only responsive in a submissive way to a chosen companion (sort of like in a traditional vanilla marriage). (Under the roleplay version of Gor-- likewise you can have submissive males... they however do not exist for natural order Goreans)

For natural order Goreans, females are when true to their natures as "submissives" (aka slaves) absolutely of equal VALUE when compared to Masters. For the natural order Gorean though-- that equal-ness is predicated within the quality of being true to yourself rather than what a vanilla would refer to as being equal. So yes the slave is entitled to the same level and degree of consideration and respect a Master is-- and conversely the Master is bound as securely within His duty to respect her. They are however, from a vanilla point of view "locked" in a D/s paradigm as determined by mother nature.

Question answered?



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