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jlf1961 -> A case the death penalty was created for (10/5/2010 3:13:42 PM)

quote:

Conn. jury convicts man in deadly home invasion

NEW HAVEN, Conn. – A paroled burglar was convicted Tuesday of murdering a woman and her two daughters during a night of terror in which the mother was strangled and the girls tied to their beds, one doused in gasoline, before the house was set on fire.

Steven Hayes, 47, could be sentenced to death. His attorneys have admitted his involvement and will argue for a life sentence.

Prosecutors said Hayes and another ex-con broke into the family's house in Cheshire in 2007, beat the girls' father with a baseball bat and forced their mother, Jennifer Hawke-Petit, to withdraw money from a bank before she was sexually assaulted and killed. Eleven-year-old Michaela and 17-year-old Hayley were tied to their beds, with pillowcases over their heads, before they were killed by the gas-fueled fire, authorities said.

The crime drew comparisons to "In Cold Blood," Truman Capote's chilling book about the 1959 murders of a Kansas family, and prompted more Cheshire residents to get guns. It also led to tougher laws for repeat offenders and home invasions, and Connecticut Gov. M. Jodi Rell cited the case when she vetoed a bill that would have abolished the death penalty.
Source


This is the kind of case that the death penalty was created for. 16 out of 17 guilty verdicts, including murder and rape.

Penalty phase starts Monday Oct 18th.




JstAnotherSub -> RE: A case the death penalty was created for (10/5/2010 3:30:12 PM)

Now now.  I am sure they just didn't get enough hugs as children and they will find gawd in prison and do good the rest of their lives.
 
The death penalty is wrong.





PyrotheClown -> RE: A case the death penalty was created for (10/5/2010 3:52:02 PM)

Meh, just stick them in the genpop and let the other inmates know what they did(especially the ages of the children), it's a fate worse then (quick painless)death, and why get the states hands dirty with such slime.




igor2003 -> RE: A case the death penalty was created for (10/5/2010 4:12:11 PM)

Here is another good case for the death penalty that happened just a few years ago in north Idaho.  The first link gives just a few of the details on only one of the several murders committed there by Joseph Duncan III.  The second link gives a bit of a time line of the legal process he has gone through so far in Idaho after which he will possibly be sent to California where he will stand trial for one more murder there.  You can click the various links within the second article to get more details.  All of this particular crime spree took place AFTER Duncan was released on $15,000 bail for charges of molesting a 7 year old boy in Minnesota.

http://crime.about.com/b/2008/08/14/duncan-jury-hears-details-of-familys-murder.htm

http://crime.about.com/od/current/a/duncan.htm




FirmhandKY -> RE: A case the death penalty was created for (10/5/2010 6:33:19 PM)



His blog.

Firm




hertz -> RE: A case the death penalty was created for (10/6/2010 5:32:39 AM)

quote:

This is the kind of case that the death penalty was created for. 16 out of 17 guilty verdicts, including murder and rape.

Penalty phase starts Monday Oct 18th.


This. Because I am only human, there's a bit of me thinks death by dousing in gasoline and being set alight would be appropriate. I'd light the match, and not feel guilty.




odysseyIndeed -> RE: A case the death penalty was created for (10/6/2010 5:44:42 AM)

(FR)

I was reading about this case yesterday. I listened to two 911 calls made, too. Everything they did was despicable but to think that those girls died of smoke inhalation so may have been able to be saved if they'd been reached in time just eats me up inside when I think of it.




samboct -> RE: A case the death penalty was created for (10/6/2010 5:45:09 AM)

Sorry- but executions are a slippery slope. Its vengeance, not justice, and it doesn't serve any purpose other than bloodlust. Yes, the crime is as heinous as they come- torching children!!!!- but look at the political hay being made. The governor saying this is the reason to keep the death penalty in CT, the prosecutors putting this case on their resumes, the public feeling satisfied that the cops did a good job and that taxpayers that live in the nice neighborhood of Cheshire (I grew up in a neighboring town, Cheshire's gotten nicer over the years.) can feel safe again.

Now just consider for a second the hypothetical....Let's say that the confessions were lead by the cops, that the DNA at the scene doesn't match, and that they've got the wrong guys. It's a human system, and the only thing that's perfect that humans have come up with yet is mathematics. (A circle can be a perfect circle, line a perfect line, point etc.) Given the hoopla- it's clear that the political system wanted to reassure the taxpayers that their money is being well spent, that Cheshire is a safe community. Had this happened in an inner city slum in Bridgeport- there wouldn't be such pressure for the death penalty.

So yeah- given the political pressure here- I think the death penalty is a mistake....I've met prosecutors- I wouldn't trust them with the life of a gerbil- never mind a human being.

Sam




Rule -> RE: A case the death penalty was created for (10/6/2010 7:11:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
This is the kind of case that the death penalty was created for. 16 out of 17 guilty verdicts, including murder and rape.

I am opposed to any prison sentences.

Four murders? Offer them the opportunity to regain honor by entering into five battles to the death. Their chance of survival and walking free: 2^-5 = 1 in 32. Proceeds of the television broadcasts to go in part to the victims or their relatives.




jlf1961 -> RE: A case the death penalty was created for (10/6/2010 3:39:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct
[snip]
Now just consider for a second the hypothetical....Let's say that the confessions were lead by the cops, that the DNA at the scene doesn't match, and that they've got the wrong guys. It's a human system, and the only thing that's perfect that humans have come up with yet is mathematics. (A circle can be a perfect circle, line a perfect line, point etc.) Given the hoopla- it's clear that the political system wanted to reassure the taxpayers that their money is being well spent, that Cheshire is a safe community. Had this happened in an inner city slum in Bridgeport- there wouldn't be such pressure for the death penalty.
[snip]
Sam



Except, in this case, the DNA from the rape kits did match, gasoline was poured on the two daughters then set on fire, the police caught the two guys fleeing in the car owned by the victims.

DNA has cleared many charged with murder, rape, assault and other crimes. And the simple truth that many seem to not realize is that for the death penalty to be sought, there are certain criteria that have to be met.

Putting two animals like this in prison for life just brings up the question, what makes their lives more valuable than the ones they took?




willbeurdaddy -> RE: A case the death penalty was created for (10/6/2010 3:42:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct
[snip]
Now just consider for a second the hypothetical....Let's say that the confessions were lead by the cops, that the DNA at the scene doesn't match, and that they've got the wrong guys. It's a human system, and the only thing that's perfect that humans have come up with yet is mathematics. (A circle can be a perfect circle, line a perfect line, point etc.) Given the hoopla- it's clear that the political system wanted to reassure the taxpayers that their money is being well spent, that Cheshire is a safe community. Had this happened in an inner city slum in Bridgeport- there wouldn't be such pressure for the death penalty.
[snip]
Sam



Except, in this case, the DNA from the rape kits did match, gasoline was poured on the two daughters then set on fire, the police caught the two guys fleeing in the car owned by the victims.

DNA has cleared many charged with murder, rape, assault and other crimes. And the simple truth that many seem to not realize is that for the death penalty to be sought, there are certain criteria that have to be met.

Putting two animals like this in prison for life just brings up the question, what makes their lives more valuable than the ones they took?


but but but its "bloodlust"




samboct -> RE: A case the death penalty was created for (10/6/2010 4:45:01 PM)

"Except, in this case, the DNA from the rape kits did match, gasoline was poured on the two daughters then set on fire, the police caught the two guys fleeing in the car owned by the victims. "

Having once done some work for an insurance company where I had to use findings from a state lab- I've seen far better work out of freshmen. And there's a rather famous screw up in between Luc Montagnier and Robert Gallo (both eminent scientists) where critical HIV samples were "mislabeled." In short- even good scientists screw up- and the state labs don't get the cream of the crop.

I'm sorry- I just don't trust the system with someones life. While in all likelihood, you're right, and these people actually did commit the crime, the temptation to use the death penalty is too great to be entrusted to politicians. The "justice" system in this country isn't about justice- its about money and power. People who think that the system works- well, they've never been in it. People that have been in it know how abysmally it functions. I've had first hand experience just fighting traffic tickets and I was horrified. Prosecutors and judges regularly flaunt rules that they're supposed to follow. This percolates down to the cops who get the idea that perjury is acceptable if it results in a conviction.

I'm sorry- but death penalty cases are about votes, funding, and money- not about justice.

Sam




JstAnotherSub -> RE: A case the death penalty was created for (10/6/2010 4:47:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

I'm sorry- but death penalty cases are about votes, funding, and money- not about justice.

Sam
Sometimes that may be the case.  Sometimes the death penalty is just the only reasonable response to the crime........




jlf1961 -> RE: A case the death penalty was created for (10/6/2010 6:31:40 PM)

Sam, I guess it doesn't matter that both of these animals confessed in the presence of their attorneys, trying to get out of the death penalty. The DA opted not to offer a plea bargain in return for the confessions.

The only reason this went to trial (which the defense did not dispute any of the evidence presented by the prosecutors) was to try and get the sentence of life in prison. They did not object when the confession was offered into evidence.

The only thing they did not find this first defendant guilty of was arson, even though he confessed to pouring the gasoline that was used to start the fires.

I doubt very much it was smoke inhalation that killed the two daughters, considering that they had gasoline poured over them and the beds they were tied to. The girls were alive when the fire was lit.

Now, they forfeited their rights to LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of happiness when they committed this crime. My personal opinion is that they should be burned alive as was the two girls they killed. They at least strangled the mother after they raped her.




Irishknight -> RE: A case the death penalty was created for (10/8/2010 7:26:22 PM)

If they get life in prison, they can escape and do this to another family. If they are put down for the safety of society, they cannot. Vengeance need play no part in the thought process on this one. Public safety need be the only concern.




TheHeretic -> RE: A case the death penalty was created for (10/8/2010 9:06:22 PM)

Right there with you on this one, Jlf.

That doesn't happen very often, does it?




lockedaway -> RE: A case the death penalty was created for (10/8/2010 11:35:02 PM)

I am a big proponent of the death penalty.  People say that the death penalty is not a deterrent to crime and it is not when there are countless appeals and a person may be on death row for ten years or more.

This Ct case is perfect for the death penalty.  But if I had my way, I would create a "beyond all doubt standard" where certain crimes which would not ordinarily be death penalty cases would become death penalty cases.  For example, there was a guy that raped a 14year old girl and like in Titus Andronicus, he cut out her tongue.  But he also chopped off her hands and feet.  She servived and he was convicted of rape and attempted murder but he eventually got out.  What I propose is that any crime that includes a common law element of "mayhem"  (i.e. dismemberment), becomes a capitol offense if we can meet the "beyond all doubt standard".  Otherwise, of course, it is treated as it usually would.  How would the "beyond all doubt standard" work?  Imagine a rapist savagely brutalizing a woman and he happens to be on camera?  That would do it.  Certainly, commiting an intentional murder in the act of flight would rise to it.

But more valid than the argument that the death penalty is a deterrrent to crime is the argument in favor of society's and the victim's need for vindication.  The argument that the death penalty is the ultimate deterrent for the individual criminal goes without saying.

Just a thought.




pyroaquatic -> RE: A case the death penalty was created for (10/8/2010 11:52:22 PM)

I have heard about this.

I would not electrocute them or even kill them immediately.

I would work them to death. You took life and purpose out of a family and you will be assigned a new purpose. All under supervision of course.

Death would be too good for them.

Guns, Safety Training, Bullets, Gun Maintenance,

Guns are LOUD and this is a good thing. I have a metal rod (seriously from a printer) that I can use quite well, Compound Bow, bokken, but sadly no gun yet. I don't want to use it but I will shoot for the kneecaps or foot. I don't want to have to take a life but nature runs its due course.




Real0ne -> RE: A case the death penalty was created for (10/9/2010 12:33:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct
I'm sorry- I just don't trust the system with someones life.

Sam


agreed

dead men can neither repent nor feel remorse




Caius -> RE: A case the death penalty was created for (10/9/2010 1:44:32 AM)

I think sam makes a pretty good argument here. Though it's surely hard to keep the blood from boiling when you hear the details of this case, he is right in that one has to think carefully about the consequences of giving the state power over life and death.  An astounding number of people on death row have had their convictions overturned since the advent of DNA evidence.  At the same time, the CSI culture has primed jurors (and jurists) virtually everywhere it reaches to regard forensic analysts as virtually infallible when in fact many times there has been no kind of empirical review of their methods, which range a wide gambit from poorly understood because they are leading edge thinking to poorly understood because they are absolute bullshit manufactured in the mind of a psuedo-scientist.   From forensic bacteriology to blood-splatter patterns to forensic typography and too many others to even begin to list here, evidence is all-to-often debunked, and unfortunately frequently after an innocent party has had their life irreversibly altered (or even taken).  As sam also points out, even more credible processes such as DNA analysis occasionally lead to false convictions.  If you have inclination towards the principle that, as William Blackstone said centuries ago, "better that ten guilty persons should go free than that one innocent should suffer unduly.", then you have to take this alarming trend into account.

However, that rational argument being done, I also have other qualms about the death penalty, but I don't think they would speak too loudly to me in this case.  If I were witness to such inhuman acts and guilt was not in question, its hard to imagine not drawing the conclusion that this is a diseased animal and the time has come to put them down.  Though such acts are exceedingly rare, in my opinion, the argument can be made that sometimes a human being does move beyond any reasonable argument for redemption.  That such men physically lack the mechanisms that would allow them to be full human beings and that if you commit such acts as the ones in question, you've forever reduced your status to that of a meat-machine, one whose continued existence is hardly preferable.  Personally, though, I have to think that someone amongst the loved ones of the victims in such extreme cases must always be praying that the guilty get off and are released into a world where they can be sought out.  

But short of that form of extra-legal justice, there is another likely fate already suggested by someone earlier in this thread; if these men were denied protective custody and released into the general populace they would surely end in a way that would be most consistent with anyone looking to impose eye-for-an-eye style retribution.  They would spend their remaining days in the grip of terror, punctuated by occasional pain until a violent end.  And I wouldn't be surprised if that involved fire, even in such a scenario.  Many hardened criminals, even convicts who are otherwise outright sociopaths, have daughters and sisters they love.  Not that I'm arguing for this, or any other method of punishment specifically and certainly not saying it is consistent with the rule of law and our supposed commitment to avoiding cruel and unusual punishment.  It's just that if I read about it happening, I can't imagine my first instinct would be to do anything but give an approving nod. 




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