RE: Fundamentalist Scientology (Full Version)

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Moonhead -> RE: Fundamentalist Scientology (10/10/2010 2:17:44 PM)

To be fair, it isn't just the jovo's and the unitarians. There are elements of the hassidim that also refuse to allow blood transfusions. Some of the real lunatic hardcore fringe (and there's mercifully few of those) go so far as to refuse to allow diabetics to use insulin or metfornin, which is pretty much killing people.
Aren't the Amish opposed to any medical treatment that's been invented since the late 18th century as well, come to that?




DomKen -> RE: Fundamentalist Scientology (10/10/2010 3:30:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Aren't the Amish opposed to any medical treatment that's been invented since the late 18th century as well, come to that?

They certainly accept advanced medical care for their children born with genetic illnesses. I've donated to the clinic in PA that works with the kids.




Moonhead -> RE: Fundamentalist Scientology (10/11/2010 4:49:48 AM)

Fair enough. My mistake, then.




GotSteel -> RE: Fundamentalist Scientology (10/13/2010 7:16:45 AM)

Sorry about the text brick, but I found it interesting in that it showed that the Amish are willing to use modern medicine but also that their beliefs do have some negative effects when it comes to seeking medical care.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3446212
"The Amish are exempted from social security and reject health insurance coverage, do not practice birth control, and often veto preventive practices such as immunization and prenatal care. A nonjudgmental, open attitude is required on the part of health professionals to encourage Amish families to attend clinics where health monitoring can be maintained and health education provided. As a result of a view of illness that defines it in terms of a failure to function in the work role rather than as a set of symptoms, there is often a delay in seeking medical treatment. Amish men outlive Amish women, in part because of the high birth rate (average of 7 live births/woman). Birth control and abortion are forbidden by religious doctrine, even when pregnancy is life threatening. The Amish church has no rule against immunization, but only 16-26% of Amish children have received immunizations against the common childhood diseases. Reinforcing the rejection of preventive medicine is the low educational status of the Amish people; higher education is prohibited. This further implies that health instructions must be given in simple, clear language. Nurse practitioners must accept the fact that no amount of education will persuade Amish women to practice contraception. To continue to advocate family planning in the Amish community is to risk alienating couples from the health care system."




Moonhead -> RE: Fundamentalist Scientology (10/13/2010 8:06:18 AM)

Hmmm. So not brilliant medically, even if they are willing to accept an anaesthetic if they're having a root canal done.
Maybe pa should sell his PC and move to an Amish community? I'm sure they're going to be on the gold standard, and he doesn't have to tell them that he's gay...




windchymes -> RE: Fundamentalist Scientology (10/13/2010 8:57:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Sorry about the text brick, but I found it interesting in that it showed that the Amish are willing to use modern medicine but also that their beliefs do have some negative effects when it comes to seeking medical care.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3446212
"The Amish are exempted from social security and reject health insurance coverage, do not practice birth control, and often veto preventive practices such as immunization and prenatal care. A nonjudgmental, open attitude is required on the part of health professionals to encourage Amish families to attend clinics where health monitoring can be maintained and health education provided. As a result of a view of illness that defines it in terms of a failure to function in the work role rather than as a set of symptoms, there is often a delay in seeking medical treatment. Amish men outlive Amish women, in part because of the high birth rate (average of 7 live births/woman). Birth control and abortion are forbidden by religious doctrine, even when pregnancy is life threatening. The Amish church has no rule against immunization, but only 16-26% of Amish children have received immunizations against the common childhood diseases. Reinforcing the rejection of preventive medicine is the low educational status of the Amish people; higher education is prohibited. This further implies that health instructions must be given in simple, clear language. Nurse practitioners must accept the fact that no amount of education will persuade Amish women to practice contraception. To continue to advocate family planning in the Amish community is to risk alienating couples from the health care system."


I totally disagree with this quote, and if I read the website page correctly, it's from an article written in 1986...

Back in the early to mid-90's, I managed the lab of a medical practice in Orrville, Ohio that had a large Amish clientele. I got to know many of the patients, one woman told me personally that she was having her "tubes tied" after her 10th baby, and when I looked surprised, she laughed and said, "We're allowed to do that, we just don't choose to very often!" Many of them deliver in a nearby, very modern and well-equipped birthing center, though they go home several hours after giving birth. Others actually travel by horse and buggy to an osteopathic hospital about 25 miles away. They very much do seek out good medical care, bring their babies in for tests and immunizations, though the babies are dressed all in black, not pink and blue froo-froo. They are selective about who they go to, but they do seek it out.

One thing that always struck me was how well-behaved their children were when receiving injections or having their blood drawn. Usually the parent would whisper something to them, and every one of those kids sat down with a stoic look on their face and held their arm out through the whole procedure and DID NOT CRY. The only one who ever did cry was a little 3-year-old girl who had very small veins and had to be stuck multiple times to get enough for the tests. She gave it her best not to, though.

They do have education, though it's limited to approximately the 8th or 9th grade. Many of them go to public schools for a number of years, and then finish up at the Amish schools. Don't ever underestimate the Amish's intelligence level, they're smarter than they let on sometimes. And shouldn't ALL medical advice be given in simple, clear language?

Also, English isn't their first language, it's Pennsylvania Dutch. Except for the "lower" (their terminology, not ours) orders of Amish sects, who are the small percentage who are more reclusive, sticking to the older, tradional customs, they speak excellent English, though. And they still do seek out decent medical care....and pay cash for it. Although the doctor I worked for then had the heart of an old-fashioned country doctor, and occasionally accepted baked goods and vegetables for payment :)





hertz -> RE: Fundamentalist Scientology (10/13/2010 1:33:03 PM)

Maybe it's just me, but I do think that there's a balance to be considered here. Yes, 'we' do have all sorts of wonderful medical advances and techniques going for us, but we also, frankly, live pretty unhealthy lives, where lifestyle disease is very common.

Some religions may reject those parts of the modern world we consider to be positive - the medicines and immunisations for example, but often they also often reject the more dubious pleasures of our civilisation as well.

I find myself in two minds. Sometimes, the idea of living in a community like the Amish, or maybe with a traditional community in a jungle somewhere really appeals. It would be a big leap (backwards, some might scoff), but sometimes...




GotSteel -> RE: Fundamentalist Scientology (10/15/2010 5:21:36 AM)

You've got a good point that the article I found is rather old, however there are also some real problems with using anecdotal evidence that's also rather old as a rebuttal.

Also, as to your comment on intelligence, I'm not under the impression that the Amish are inherently less intelligent than the rest of us (well except for the higher rate of mental retardation) but that they are purposely ignorant.




Moonhead -> RE: Fundamentalist Scientology (10/15/2010 5:25:23 AM)

Which many would argue is actually worse than being stupid, of course.




hertz -> RE: Fundamentalist Scientology (10/15/2010 1:22:40 PM)

quote:

I'm not under the impression that the Amish are inherently less intelligent than the rest of us (well except for the higher rate of mental retardation) but that they are purposely ignorant.


One might easily throw that accusation at the wider US society as well, surely? I mean, some of you seriously and deliberately voted a retard into the White House on more than one occasion... /troll




hertz -> RE: Fundamentalist Scientology (10/15/2010 1:25:00 PM)

Not that the British are any better. We deliberately vote for political parties on the basis that 'we need a change' or 'Ooh - doesn't he have nice hair?' Duh!




GotSteel -> RE: Fundamentalist Scientology (10/18/2010 7:29:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz
One might easily throw that accusation at the wider US society as well, surely? I mean, some of you seriously and deliberately voted a retard into the White House on more than one occasion... /troll

Yes, sadly that accusation can be thrown at far too many people. However that doesn't justify the practice, you're simply pointing out another example of why ignorance is bad.




GotSteel -> RE: Fundamentalist Scientology (10/19/2010 1:01:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz
I find myself in two minds. Sometimes, the idea of living in a community like the Amish, or maybe with a traditional community in a jungle somewhere really appeals. It would be a big leap (backwards, some might scoff), but sometimes...

I'm certainly not going to claim that the way the average american lives is ideal but it doesn't all even out either. For instance if you were part of a traditional community in a jungle somewhere, you would be dead already. You're way past the average lifespan of someone from a primitive culture.




hertz -> RE: Fundamentalist Scientology (10/19/2010 1:24:06 PM)

quote:


I'm certainly not going to claim that the way the average american lives is ideal but it doesn't all even out either. For instance if you were part of a traditional community in a jungle somewhere, you would be dead already. You're way past the average lifespan of someone from a primitive culture.


Certainly that is true, and it's one of the factors that count against. But I guess it might be possible to argue quality over quantity. It's impossible to know for sure without having two lives to live, one here, and one there. And that's why religion is so fascinating. Quantitatively, it is easily possible to argue that a life spent praying to a God who can't be proven to exist is a life wasted. However, without having experienced the quality of that life, I would not be so quick to rush to judgement.




GotSteel -> RE: Fundamentalist Scientology (10/22/2010 6:32:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz
However, without having experienced the quality of that life, I would not be so quick to rush to judgement.

Right back at you. Where are you getting the idea that some quality is gained from these beliefs that doesn't exist in secular society. You've associated bigotry, self-centerdness and greed with atheists and a moral code with the faithfull. But it's not at all black and white like that. Secular morality exists and bigotry, self-centerdness and greed also clearly exist among the religious. Personally I've found more quality on this side of the fence then on the religious side but I was raised a congregationalist and we aren't talking about that sort of unjustified belief. We are talking about demonstrably harmful beliefs which reduce the quality of life in obvious ways.




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