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The Government and Philosophy - 10/9/2010 2:22:45 AM   
NorthernGent


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For what purpose does the government exist?

What philosophical view underpins this?

After all....."how should I live my life?" is a philosophical question....likewise "what role should the state play in my life?".....


_____________________________

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.
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RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/9/2010 3:41:39 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

For what purpose does the government exist?

For whatever purpose(s) it was created to serve.

K.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
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RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/9/2010 6:26:14 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

For what purpose does the government exist?

What philosophical view underpins this?

After all....."how should I live my life?" is a philosophical question....likewise "what role should the state play in my life?".....


Ideally government is society's agent in managing affairs that affect all of society.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
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RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/9/2010 8:02:41 AM   
Real0ne


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to protect life liberty and our rights.


quote:


Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England ...

FOR the principal aim of fociety is to protect individuals in the enjoyment of thofe abfolute rights, which were vefted in them by the immutable laws of nature ; but which could not be preferved in peace without that mutual affiftance and intercourfe, which is gained by the inftitution of friendly and focial communities. Hence it follows, that the firft and primary end of human laws is to formation of ftates and focieties : fo that to maintain and regulate thefe, is clearly a fubfequent confideration. And therefore the principal view of human laws is, or ought always to be, to explain, protect, and enforce fuch rights as are abfolute,

And this fpirit of liberty is fo deeply implanted in our conftitution, and rooted even in our very foil, that a flave or a negro, the moment he lands in England, falls under the protection of the laws, and with regard to all natural rights becomes eo inftanti a freeman g.


quote:


Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1776
We hold these truths to be self-evident:

That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that, to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security. Such has been the patient sufferance of these colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former systems of government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute tyranny over these states. To prove this, let facts be submitted to a candid world.




to provide police states and tazer people at traffic stops

convert all rights to privileges and charge for them.

tax people by means of licensing.

use debt based monetary system to suck the wealth out of the country

use bait and switch tactics on legislation

use legalese and deception to insure government control

use the media to maintain the deception

make war for profit

pad those cafr funds

steal through eminent domain and property taxation

provide bailouts for their banker pals


can I stop now?

nah one more!



what a bunch of idealists huh?  
Welcome to the desert of the real!






< Message edited by Real0ne -- 10/9/2010 8:26:29 AM >


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/9/2010 9:00:22 AM   
pahunkboy


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Well-  it was supposed to be a group of people who put their heads together and arrive at consequences as to what the rules are for the group.

However-  said people- are now corporate persons.   So- the govt exists at the pleasure of Goldman Sachs.  


(in reply to Real0ne)
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RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/9/2010 9:31:28 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

For what purpose does the government exist?

What philosophical view underpins this?

After all....."how should I live my life?" is a philosophical question....likewise "what role should the state play in my life?".....


Ideally government is society's agent in managing affairs that affect all of society.


I like this.  Police, fire department, libraries.  A standing army.

It also should provide social programs IMO, but I wish that they were safety nets and not anything more.

Providing regulation on entities that could become destructive to society as well.

I'm not so sure about being insurance for banks, with FDIC.

It performed a vital service with EEOC.  I feel that the program needs to evolve but not sure what into.


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/9/2010 11:32:22 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

For what purpose does the government exist?

What philosophical view underpins this?

After all....."how should I live my life?" is a philosophical question....likewise "what role should the state play in my life?".....



The existence of government isnt in response to a "purpose". There is a genetic/evolutionary predeliction toward forming social units. As soon as there is a social unit of more than 1 person a "government" spontaneously emerges. As the social units grow its members more clearly refine the roles of the government they are willing to relinquish their freedom to.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
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RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/9/2010 11:33:52 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven


I'm not so sure about being insurance for banks, with FDIC.





Im not sure what you mean here. FDIC isnt insurance for banks, its insurance for depositors.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to DarkSteven)
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RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/9/2010 11:40:25 AM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
For what purpose does the government exist?

What philosophical view underpins this?

After all....."how should I live my life?" is a philosophical question....likewise "what role should the state play in my life?".....



The existence of government isnt in response to a "purpose". There is a genetic/evolutionary predeliction toward forming social units. As soon as there is a social unit of more than 1 person a "government" spontaneously emerges. As the social units grow its members more clearly refine the roles of the government they are willing to relinquish their freedom to.


I would only expand on this idea, of willbeurdaddy....

When one additional person joins, and it becomes two a goverment emerges. If one relinquishs their freedom, would that not, with circumstance, all the other more freedom? One is bullied by the bully. Some goverments, are formed for the mutual benefit of all, and not just a tiny group of individuals. However, that group must always remain vigilant to a smaller, radical group trying to take over or destroy from the inside out (either subtly or violently).

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
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RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/9/2010 11:47:17 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

If one relinquishs their freedom, would that not, with circumstance, all the other more freedom?


Responsible leadership doesnt add to freedom, it reduces it because the leader is constrained to act in the best interest of the social unit, rather than his/her own self interest.

Obviously that doesnt necessarily carry through to the real world, where leadership is not always responsble.

One obvious example is our favorite social unit, the Dom/sub relationship. When the Dom accepts his/her role as leader of that unit, he doesnt gain freedom along with control. He loses it when he becomes responsible for the sub's care and feeding.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 10/9/2010 11:52:12 AM >


_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to joether)
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RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/9/2010 11:47:50 AM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

For what purpose does the government exist?

What philosophical view underpins this?

After all....."how should I live my life?" is a philosophical question....likewise "what role should the state play in my life?".....


Ideally government is society's agent in managing affairs that affect all of society.


What about specifics?....affairs? all of society?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/9/2010 11:52:24 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

For what purpose does the government exist?

What philosophical view underpins this?

After all....."how should I live my life?" is a philosophical question....likewise "what role should the state play in my life?".....


Ideally government is society's agent in managing affairs that affect all of society.


I like this.  Police, fire department, libraries.  A standing army.

It also should provide social programs IMO, but I wish that they were safety nets and not anything more.

Providing regulation on entities that could become destructive to society as well.

I'm not so sure about being insurance for banks, with FDIC.

It performed a vital service with EEOC.  I feel that the program needs to evolve but not sure what into.



Why though?

A system should fit human nature...which demands a commentary on what that nature is...e.g. why is it in the interests of a human being to have 'social programmes' for wider society? what is it that makes that in all of our interests? etc etc

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/9/2010 11:53:42 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

For what purpose does the government exist?

What philosophical view underpins this?

After all....."how should I live my life?" is a philosophical question....likewise "what role should the state play in my life?".....


Ideally government is society's agent in managing affairs that affect all of society.


What about specifics?....affairs? all of society?


To be specific you first need to define the society youre talking about. Then you will have a whole spectrum of beliefs of what is appropriate role of government for that society.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/9/2010 11:58:27 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

For what purpose does the government exist?

What philosophical view underpins this?

After all....."how should I live my life?" is a philosophical question....likewise "what role should the state play in my life?".....



The existence of government isnt in response to a "purpose". There is a genetic/evolutionary predeliction toward forming social units. As soon as there is a social unit of more than 1 person a "government" spontaneously emerges. As the social units grow its members more clearly refine the roles of the government they are willing to relinquish their freedom to.



Yes...human beings form associations. So....purpose? responsibilities? and why would this suit human needs?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/9/2010 12:00:04 PM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I'm not so sure about being insurance for banks, with FDIC.



Im not sure what you mean here. FDIC isnt insurance for banks, its insurance for depositors.


You're correct.  What I meant is that FDIC provides assurance to depositors that their deposits will be covered, and in so doing, works like a free loan guarantee for banks.


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/9/2010 12:00:50 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

For what purpose does the government exist?

What philosophical view underpins this?

After all....."how should I live my life?" is a philosophical question....likewise "what role should the state play in my life?".....


Ideally government is society's agent in managing affairs that affect all of society.


What about specifics?....affairs? all of society?


To be specific you first need to define the society youre talking about. Then you will have a whole spectrum of beliefs of what is appropriate role of government for that society.



There is no specific society outlined the OP.....so give us a view based on your experiences and beliefs...

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
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RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/9/2010 12:02:22 PM   
kdsub


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There are many reasons but i would say the first and most important is to make and enforce laws that allow the governed to live together and prosper.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to NorthernGent)
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RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/9/2010 12:05:32 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

There are many reasons but i would say the first and most important is to make and enforce laws that allow the governed to live together and prosper.

Butch



Who decides what is necessary? For example....Hobbes believed Absolutism was necessary for people to live together in harmony....I'd imagine you're not proposing that...so what are you proposing Butch...what is the goverment's role...in specific terms...and why should they have such a role...why would it benefit human nature to have a government and where does such benefit morph into tyranny?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/9/2010 12:14:31 PM   
kdsub


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Of course it depends on the type of government...for instance one form will write and enforce laws that profit the government...another will do the same to profit the electorate.

Survival is the basic reason. Cooperative societies prosper more than individuals. Societies require rules to assure the needed cooperation. A government of some kind is needed to regulate and enforce the rules. I like simple.. people realized they can be stronger, safer, and more prosperous working together and the strongest or smartest of these made the rules. Those that organized into cooperative groups survived and those that didn't did not.

After laws comes of course the common defense but laws and or rules must be first and are the most important part of governments in my opinion.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 10/9/2010 12:18:24 PM >


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/10/2010 4:25:34 AM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Of course it depends on the type of government...for instance one form will write and enforce laws that profit the government...another will do the same to profit the electorate.

Survival is the basic reason. Cooperative societies prosper more than individuals. Societies require rules to assure the needed cooperation. A government of some kind is needed to regulate and enforce the rules. I like simple.. people realized they can be stronger, safer, and more prosperous working together and the strongest or smartest of these made the rules. Those that organized into cooperative groups survived and those that didn't did not.

After laws comes of course the common defense but laws and or rules must be first and are the most important part of governments in my opinion.

Butch


So....laws/rules are of primary importance....I'd agree with that...

How far should law reach into the individual's life....in other words what should these constitute?

As a prompt...John Stuart Mill advocated the harm principle....i.e. the law should only extend in so far as it prevents one human being doing harm to another......Hobbes believed the state had the right to do whatever it wanted in order to preserve order....

Where you would you stand within these two poles of the spectrum...and why?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to kdsub)
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