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RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/11/2010 1:51:32 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

@OP, it'll ultimately boil down to individualism vs collectivism.



I wouldn't agree with that...to what extent is anyone on this board an 'individual'....everyone explicitly or tacitly agrees to conform to the group....there are very few people who do not use public parks...roads...libraries...schools etc...and anyone doing so tacitly accepts the protection/guidance/authority...whatever you want to call it....of the state....


That is absolutely incorrect

Tacit acceptance and "presumed" tacit acceptance are entirely 2 different things.

If you look at the articles of confederation the estates created compact of friendship and vow to protect each other in case of attack.  In this manner the estates relinquished virtually no sovereignty to accomplish their needs of mutual well being.

How ever that did not pay kingy boys bills so to pay the bills the created the sacred cow we have now.

What people here do not realize is that we have full use of the magna charta AND the english bill of rights of what 1689 or something as RESERVED through the 5th, 7th, 9th, 10th amendments.

Now if you join any democracy as a "citizen" which in the final analysis means "subject to" then what you say applies.

Otherwise show me any law that you can be held accountable to where you must be a citizen...

Its a direct violation of your rights to be forced into any religious or political group.

The sovereigns responsibility ends at injury in person or equity.

Now the way it is supposed to work is that the community builds a road and puts out a referendum to be voted on.  You can safely presume that everyone will use a road hence charge everyone in the area the tax required to build said road.  Once said road is completed gas tax takes over such that the people who use it the most pay the most and those who do not pay the least.


Where does the ability to regulate come from?  a small group of people calling themselves the legislature who is the business side of the equation to manage the COMMERCIAL side of the USE of the roads.

Private people pay in terms of gas tax all this licensing crapola is extortion and the private noncommercial travelers are paying not only the gas tax but the USE FEES same as commercial on top of it. (as much as the market will bear)

The state controlling the business side requires dealers to turn in the manufactures certificate of origin for your car and once that is accomplished the state secures a security interest in your property.

You "unwittingly" buy a "drivers" license and become a for hire person (a driver" along with your tags "public permission" to USE the roads for your "business" purposes on the common way.

You just sold your right to travel up the river.

Not that you really did but it will be construed by the syntax terrorists to be as such and one of 2 th8ings will happen;
a) either you will never get the opportunity to argue the merits in court because they will dismiss it first.
OR
b) you will not know how to argue the merits in court and just get the crapola fined out of you for trying and failing.

If one wishes to get to the merits of the matter they would need to prove you were acting under commerce at the time of arrest.  (stopping you on the highway)

The heartbreak hotel, once you check in you cant check out.




welcome to the desert of the real  --morpheous

They presume tacit acceptance if you do NOT deny it and if you do deny it they drag you through court long enough that it would have been cheaper for you to simply have paid for the licensing etc in the first place but then again there are a lot of people that are fed up with doing business at the end of the barrel of their gun.

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 10/11/2010 2:03:07 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/11/2010 2:28:01 PM   
DCWoody


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Joined: 10/27/2006
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quote:


I wouldn't agree with that...to what extent is anyone on this board an 'individual'....everyone explicitly or tacitly agrees to conform to the group....there are very few people who do not use public parks...roads...libraries...schools etc...and anyone doing so tacitly accepts the protection/guidance/authority...whatever you want to call it....of the state....

There are degrees in terms of opinion on state authority....granted....but there's no one running round as 'an individual'....


How about......a teenage old fashioned living Australian Abo, gone solo? :)

Thing is, there's no-one (or few, per unusual example) going around living truly for the group, antesque sacrificial bridge building etc....it's a spectrum, sorta....

quote:

Why? Why should the government help you? And what's in it for me? Does your version of 'help' correspond with my version of 'help'? And if there are conflicting interests between individuals then what system best fits our conflicting interests? And why?"


Exactly the question. Like I said, mebe the important part of government is not what the government decides to do, but how it decides it....the resolution of conflicting interests. Essentially....what's the best system of democracy?

quote:

As a prompt....I fully believe in the liberal view that education and health should be placed before defence in terms of importance and government prioritisation....why should you have to conform to my view where the majority agree with me? Is there an alternative?


Aye. Move to a different nation. For serious...the relative ease of migration westerners enjoy is a great help for things like this. Relatively large numbers of Brits move to either the continent or the usa or australia for cultural reasons...

quote:

Are the majority defeating themselves by virtue of majority rule where the minority....who are a crucial component of any society.....i.e. the non conformist creative arm of society....are ridden roughshod?


In most societies that don't divide politically along ethnic grounds....the majority and the minority are not set groups. No-one is always in one or the other, minority vs majority only exist in regards to specific issues, and people who're part of the majority on many issues will be in a minority on some. And....in civilised nations, the majority rarely ride roughshod over large minorities....the likelyhood/fierceness of a minority supported option/opinion being supressed &/or banned is, in most cases...reversely proportional to the size of the minority. While the more imaginative, possibly the more intelligent....are more likely to have less orthodox opinions, views, ideas....and ofc it would often be bad for the average joe minority to consistently overrule them on the basis of tradition or oversimplification......does this actually happen? I haven't noticed it....we simply don't live in a society where the different and the unusual is automatically viewed as bad.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/11/2010 3:21:02 PM   
DCWoody


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

But more importantly...why do you think you way you do? Where have these beliefs come from...and is there much in the way of reason to support them?

...

And that's what I'm getting at really....presumably political beliefs are underpinned by a certain view of human nature and behaviour....and that's what's more interesting to me.....not the what...rather the why.... 


Essentially, my childhood....but I guess that's the same for most everyone.
Reason to support them....yes, only.
I don't claim to have beliefs....I try to avoid saying things such as 'I believe blah blah blah', although not always successfully...learned phrases and all that....instead I say that I think blah blah blah.

I'm reminded of a discussion of religion I had years back, some guy couldn't understand how secular people had morality....eventually the answer boiled down to empathy, but for many of my more political views I suppose....I don't exactly lack empathy, but I don't think about what other people are feeling and bow to it, I challenge it. Humans aren't logical...even when we think about things, we don't think logically....we think with emotions, engrained prejudices evolutionarily designed to pick up patterns and follow them.....but we are capable of thinking at a far better level than gut feeling, we just don't.....whenever someone recieves new information, some statistic or news story or scientific or economic theory, they're likely to get a feeling that guides whether they accept it. Often quite strongly, you'll go instantly to start questioning the source (or not, as appropriate)...and it's quite hard to overcome your automatic reaction and truly judge its veracity dispassionately.
That's a large part of my view of human nature....we are not logical creatures, but we can be. Even when people think they're using logic, if it's a controversial subject they're almost certainly not, they're just trying to build up something that fits the pattern of logic to fit their emotional reaction to the discussion, it's in our nature....our brains are pattern recognising machines, but we can...with some...discomfort perhaps is the right word....use our consciousness to be logical. We just don't, hardly ever.

Consider....a professional poll from a while back, found Labour voters were far more likely to support part privatisation of the post office than conservatives. Makes no sense from a rational perspective....but because it'd been a labour policy because they'd been in govt and had to actually do things whereas cons could avoid taking controversial decisions...labour voters had associated a policy which clearly doesn't match their (ideally) carefully thought views on the role of the state with their 'good guys', and cons with 'the enemy', even though it's a policy they most of all would be likely to support.

I keep making so many typos cos I'm listening to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB4fO-f33K0&feature=related and keep trying to type faster than I can :)

I recall some idea that a lot of political views (eg. just typed political beliefs, then:backspace, views) boil down to whether that person views people...humans....as inherently nice or selfish. I'd say empathy makes us nice to humans, but what we see as human isn't as simple as ten fingers, ten toes, not too hairy....humanising features. The reason police don't send in those with face obscuring headgear unless a protest kicks off. Everyone knows the thing about muggers not mugging those who say hi as they walk past, but it's not an urban myth...it's true. So I guess both views can be right, human nature is...variable. Dependant. Either way, I definitely come down onto the optomistic/people are nice side, but that people will act as such is far from a given. To sum up human behaviour ain't exactly easy...and I think I'm rambling enough.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/11/2010 8:02:48 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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the underlying question however is why have any government at all?.

What is the purpose of government?

lets get to the bottom line.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to DCWoody)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/12/2010 2:11:21 PM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

Humans aren't logical...even when we think about things, we don't think logically....we think with emotions, engrained prejudices evolutionarily designed to pick up patterns and follow them.....but we are capable of thinking at a far better level than gut feeling, we just don't.....whenever someone recieves new information, some statistic or news story or scientific or economic theory, they're likely to get a feeling that guides whether they accept it. Often quite strongly, you'll go instantly to start questioning the source (or not, as appropriate)...and it's quite hard to overcome your automatic reaction and truly judge its veracity dispassionately.



We can be logical. It's what gives us an edge over other animals......reason...but I'd agree that there's far more to us than reason and this has been acknowledged for hundreds of years. I think it was Hume who made a huge dent in the humans are closer to god than animals argument.

_____________________________

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/12/2010 2:12:36 PM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

the underlying question however is why have any government at all?.

What is the purpose of government?

lets get to the bottom line.



Yeah good question....why do we need a government? Any ideas?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/12/2010 8:42:26 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		The problem is that the government is a commercial construct and people do not realize it.

Dont believe me?  ok----

who grants land?  the grantor
who assigns it the assignor
who settles an account the settlor

and so forth and so on

From the American Turn-on-me's favorite Law Dictionary - Blacks 8th edition

Who creates a constitution?

a

CONSTITUTOR
constitutor, n. [Latin "an orderer, arranger"] Roman law. A person who, by agreement, becomes responsible for the payment of another's debt.

Hence government as a 3rd party interest in your marriage, your car, your boat, your property....
and that constitution becomes what?

CONSTITUTION constitution. 1. The fundamental and organic law of a nation or state that establishes the institutions and apparatus of government, defines the scope of governmental sovereign powers, and guarantees individual civil rights and civil liberties. [Cases: Constitutional Law 1.1.] 2. The written instrument embodying this fundamental law, together with any formal amendments.

While the creators created it in a moral "tone" in the final analysis its not about whats moral its about what is expedient and profitable. 

Look at the script - matrix, we are the batteries for the machine.  People constantly complain how STOOPID the government is and its the very same people who say that who dont get it!

Its all about business!  Because the government think tanks operate at an iq level on a standard test of 170+ and the people who say the gubmint does really stupid stuff simply do not get it.

Once the light goes on and they think in terms of government as a private for profit corporation then the lights go on and all of a sudden EVERYTHING they do makes sense.

for all intents and purposes we do not need government at all in terms of nation states.

All we need is CIVILIAN courts and CIVILIAN judges of the people not the private corporate military courts we have now.

Government is force.  Wars are created by governments not the people of the country at large.

Gubmint has always been intended to take care of the commercial side and they converted everything in your life into commercial even praying to God just so that it can be taxed by them.   2 for me one for you!

You surely remember herman georings quotes;

quote:

“Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”


quote:

“Of course people don’t want war. Why should a poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best thing he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece?”


So the framers created a constitution that was intended to prevent the "government" from completely bowling over the people in its debt collection activities and the BAR in collusion with the banks and whom ever else supported them completely undermined and overrun the government by subterfuge of law with the use of presumption and syntax terrorism by adverb verb fictions.

They seen it coming and passed the 13th amendment that no no damn BAR flies in government but the terrified king that we whooped his ass in the revolutionary war came back over and out of fear and of the bad ass americans burned the white house down in 1812 and destroyed as much evidence of that 13th as they could and to insure it, the the defeated brits stayed here until roughly 1879ish or so.

Teh we kicked your butts good man!  LOL

One suggestion would be for people to become better informed who is under that constitution and who is over it and realize that the gubmint plays both sides at the same time.

They slip into one side of law to go after you and then claim immunity on the other side and they want to join all law forms together and its almost there and then you wont stand a chance.

Of course that is a one way street.

Show me ONE gubmint that did not abuse the people?

Someone facetiously said I am for government at the county level, well actually district level in the more populated areas.




_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/13/2010 1:43:51 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

to protect life liberty and our rights.


quote:


Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England ...

FOR the principal aim of fociety is to protect individuals in the enjoyment of thofe abfolute rights, which were vefted in them by the immutable laws of nature ; but which could not be preferved in peace without that mutual affiftance and intercourfe, which is gained by the inftitution of friendly and focial communities. Hence it follows, that the firft and primary end of human laws is to formation of ftates and focieties : fo that to maintain and regulate thefe, is clearly a fubfequent confideration. And therefore the principal view of human laws is, or ought always to be, to explain, protect, and enforce fuch rights as are abfolute,

And this fpirit of liberty is fo deeply implanted in our conftitution, and rooted even in our very foil, that a flave or a negro, the moment he lands in England, falls under the protection of the laws, and with regard to all natural rights becomes eo inftanti a freeman g.







Fuck me, that Blackstone fella had a shocking lifp.

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RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/13/2010 9:41:25 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

to protect life liberty and our rights.


quote:


Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England ...

FOR the principal aim of fociety is to protect individuals in the enjoyment of thofe abfolute rights, which were vefted in them by the immutable laws of nature ; but which could not be preferved in peace without that mutual affiftance and intercourfe, which is gained by the inftitution of friendly and focial communities. Hence it follows, that the firft and primary end of human laws is to formation of ftates and focieties : fo that to maintain and regulate thefe, is clearly a fubfequent confideration. And therefore the principal view of human laws is, or ought always to be, to explain, protect, and enforce fuch rights as are abfolute,

And this fpirit of liberty is fo deeply implanted in our conftitution, and rooted even in our very foil, that a flave or a negro, the moment he lands in England, falls under the protection of the laws, and with regard to all natural rights becomes eo inftanti a freeman g.







Fuck me, that Blackstone fella had a shocking lifp.


its funny but after you read enough of these old english documents you get used to it and I actually dont even see the "f" anymore as a f, I see it as an s LOL


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to crazyml)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/13/2010 9:55:13 AM   
EternalHoH


Posts: 791
Joined: 5/30/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

For whatever purpose(s) it was created to serve.

K.



I agree, but there are requirements upon we, the people, to make sure that holds true.

The problem is, we the people have confused a government that serves us with a government that hinders us.

When the government establishes financial regulations that assure the financial industry can never gamble the value of the world 7 times over, that government is doing a great service to you, me, and everyone else.

However, we fail. We dumb down. We lack the civic education. All of a sudden, we think those rules are a hindrance to us, and demand that the government 'serve us' and take those regulations away. And now, we see that the private sector has indeed bet 7 times the value of the world.

Got news for you.  The government didn't fail us. WE failed the government.

It really doesn't surprise me that the people who are most adamant at demonizing the role of government fail to see their own role in this clusterfuck.



(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/13/2010 10:29:42 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Why is it surprising? Passing the buck has always been an integral part of the neocon philosophy. Just like Futuyama now insisting that he's been misread and it wasn't his fault...

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(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to EternalHoH)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/13/2010 4:21:49 PM   
DCWoody


Posts: 1401
Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline 		It is an s really, just looks like an f. Same as the 'Y' in 'Ye old' is actually the last remaining English usage of the letter Þ (pronounced 'th').

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/17/2010 2:14:36 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EternalHoH

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

For whatever purpose(s) it was created to serve.

K.



I agree, but there are requirements upon we, the people, to make sure that holds true.

The problem is, we the people have confused a government that serves us with a government that hinders us.

When the government establishes financial regulations that assure the financial industry can never gamble the value of the world 7 times over, that government is doing a great service to you, me, and everyone else.

However, we fail. We dumb down. We lack the civic education. All of a sudden, we think those rules are a hindrance to us, and demand that the government 'serve us' and take those regulations away. And now, we see that the private sector has indeed bet 7 times the value of the world.

Got news for you.  The government didn't fail us. WE failed the government.

It really doesn't surprise me that the people who are most adamant at demonizing the role of government fail to see their own role in this clusterfuck.







the whole "party" argument is nothing more than a ruse and a distraction that keeps participants focused on the splinter in the other guys eye while failing to see the log in their own eye.

its perfect for people who love to chase their tail.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to EternalHoH)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/17/2010 7:36:11 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline 		The #1 function of government is to act a neutral party in resolving disputes between citizens.

The #2 function of government is to stop outside forces from killing citizens or destroying/stealing their property in areas that are actually part of the governed area.

All other functions not directly related to #1 and #2 are non-essential, as in even if they may be helpful, they aren't a necessary function.



As in police are a required to enforce #1. Courts are result of #1. Jails are result of #1.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/17/2010 8:20:02 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

do you feel a court which is a jury of 12 chosen from people not a government body should be part of the commercial government?


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: The Government and Philosophy - 10/17/2010 8:51:45 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Fuck me, that Blackstone fella had a shocking lifp.


Didn't you just tell us a day or two ago that Politics and Religion was something you vowed never to post on because it was beneath your superior intellect?

(in reply to crazyml)
Profile   Post #: 56
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