RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia

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FirmhandKY -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 11:23:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Those texts are pretty specific and there is no denying what they say. As far as Christian sacred text, I'd have to disagree with you. I've read the bible, and found nothing that condones "discrimination" against homosexuals. Firm No shit? You're really going to make me do this? It's pretty straightforward but I have no doubt you'll find some way to parse words and claim it really doesn't say what it says: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (New International Version) Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - Passage Lookup) Where are the instructions about discriminating against them? Haven't you read any of the other scriptures? How about the one that says a rich man can never enter heaven (like a camel through the eye of a needle)? ..I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. Is this "discrimination" against the rich? How about the one about "casting the first stone"? He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. There are lots of others. Where, exactly, is the call for "discrimination"? Firm

peacefulplace -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 11:25:18 AM)
quote: There is evidence that homosexuality is a result of the lack of the correct type and amount of hormones during the in utero growth of the brain. This likely means that the price we paid for a larger, more complex brain was an occasional dysfunction when it came to the evolutionary purpose of sexual orientation. In other words, the "other things" that the homo sapiens sapiens brain contributed to our survival and reproduction outweighed the occasional lapse in the hormonal wash that controlled sexual orientation. You cannot be serious. Really. You think that unabashed, prolific reproduction is the wave of the future??? I congratulate you on finding your prejudices against gays to be acceptable according to evolution, which you claim is some sort of false prognoisticator.

rulemylife -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 11:25:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (King James Version) ~which is what most christian religions use~ 9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. Note, it states nothing about homosexuality... 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (New American Standard Bible) 9Or (A)do you not know that the unrighteous will not (B)inherit the kingdom of God? (C)Do not be deceived; (D)neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [a]effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will (E)inherit the kingdom of God. now we get into the homosexuals. another version 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (English Standard Version) 9Or do you not know that the unrighteous[a] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived:(A) neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. Your source. The problem comes in with interpretation. Anything can be added, changed or inserted to "clarify" meaning. That doesnt make it accurate. Well, let me ask you two questions Tazzy. First, why is your source more accurate? Second, what do you determine the meaning of what I highlighted to be? Is it not just a different way of saying the same thing? But if we really want to do this I can pull up Bible and Koran passages that condemn homosexuality all day long.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 11:29:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: peacefulplace quote: There is evidence that homosexuality is a result of the lack of the correct type and amount of hormones during the in utero growth of the brain. This likely means that the price we paid for a larger, more complex brain was an occasional dysfunction when it came to the evolutionary purpose of sexual orientation. In other words, the "other things" that the homo sapiens sapiens brain contributed to our survival and reproduction outweighed the occasional lapse in the hormonal wash that controlled sexual orientation. You cannot be serious. Really. You think that unabashed, prolific reproduction is the wave of the future??? I congratulate you on finding your prejudices against gays to be acceptable according to evolution, which you claim is some sort of false prognoisticator. Pull in your horns, please. Where have you gotten the belief that I'm "prejudiced" against gays, or even find prejudice against it acceptable? Second, your comments about "unabashed, prolific reproduction" simply tells me that you are weak in your understanding of evolutionary theory in general, and evolutionary psychology in particular. Firm

odysseyIndeed -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 11:30:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Those texts are pretty specific and there is no denying what they say. As far as Christian sacred text, I'd have to disagree with you. I've read the bible, and found nothing that condones "discrimination" against homosexuals. Firm No shit? You're really going to make me do this? It's pretty straightforward but I have no doubt you'll find some way to parse words and claim it really doesn't say what it says: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (New International Version) Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - Passage Lookup) That passage does not tell us to discriminate against homosexuals. If people truly in their hearts believed that, then they would also discriminate against the other people mentioned in that passage. Two drunks can get married to each other, two thieves can marry each other, etc. I believe homophobia stems from fear - not fear of the homosexual exactly, but fear that the homophobic person may end up in a homosexual encounter or actually be a bit homosexual or bisexual themselves and are fighting it. I'm not homophobic, but then I'm also not at all bisexual or homosexual. My personal belief is as long as no one is abusing another living thing they can live the life they choose, and if people truly believe that a certain section of people are going to go to hell when they die, why in the world make their life on earth a living hell as well by mistreating them and discriminating against them?

rulemylife -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 11:41:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Those texts are pretty specific and there is no denying what they say. As far as Christian sacred text, I'd have to disagree with you. I've read the bible, and found nothing that condones "discrimination" against homosexuals. Firm No shit? You're really going to make me do this? It's pretty straightforward but I have no doubt you'll find some way to parse words and claim it really doesn't say what it says: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (New International Version) Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - Passage Lookup) Where are the instructions about discriminating against them? Haven't you read any of the other scriptures? How about the one that says a rich man can never enter heaven (like a camel through the eye of a needle)? ..I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. Is this "discrimination" against the rich? How about the one about "casting the first stone"? He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. There are lots of others. Where, exactly, is the call for "discrimination"? Firm That was truly weak. And I honestly knew you were going to do it even before you did. But let's not pretend you do not see what was in the passage. Let's also not go into your favorite other game of trying to divert the issue. We are not talking about biblical references to rich men or casting the first stone, we are talking about references to homosexuality.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 11:44:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife That was truly weak. And I honestly knew you were going to do it even before you did. But let's not pretend you do not see what was in the passage. Let's also not go into your favorite other game of trying to divert the issue. We are not talking about biblical references to rich men or casting the first stone, we are talking about references to homosexuality. Where was the "call for discrimination" in the passage you quoted? Firm

rulemylife -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 11:48:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: odysseyIndeed That passage does not tell us to discriminate against homosexuals. If people truly in their hearts believed that, then they would also discriminate against the other people mentioned in that passage. Two drunks can get married to each other, two thieves can marry each other, etc. I believe homophobia stems from fear - not fear of the homosexual exactly, but fear that the homophobic person may end up in a homosexual encounter or actually be a bit homosexual or bisexual themselves and are fighting it. I'm not homophobic, but then I'm also not at all bisexual or homosexual. My personal belief is as long as no one is abusing another living thing they can live the life they choose, and if people truly believe that a certain section of people are going to go to hell when they die, why in the world make their life on earth a living hell as well by mistreating them and discriminating against them? While I agree with your beliefs, I don't agree with your evaluation of the passage. Of course it does not say to discriminate against homosexuals, it only says they will rot in hell because of their evil ways. And I'm quite sure that does absolutely nothing to promote discrimination against them.

rulemylife -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 11:57:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Where was the "call for discrimination" in the passage you quoted? When someone is condemned as being unworthy that invites discrimination.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 12:02:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Where was the "call for discrimination" in the passage you quoted? When someone is condemned as being unworthy that invites discrimination. So, it's your interpretation that we are talking about, not actual Christian ethics and beliefs? Firm

Demspotis -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 12:20:16 PM)
Speaking as someone who is neither Christian nor Jewish, and therefore having no emotional attachment to their partially shared Scriptures, and no particular bias or agenda in interpretation: the quoted passage from I Corinthians does not "call for discrimination" against homosexuals, true; instead, it directly discriminates against them, calling them "wicked" or "unjust" or however else the actual Greek word ("adikoi") is translated. The passage goes on to say that some of the members of the congregation in Corinth (to whom the epistle is addressed) had been those things, but they had been "purified". Still, all this is better than the original part of the Bible, that is, the Pentateuch or Torah, which calls for the execution of homosexuals; specifically, for those who perform homosexual practices, or any of many other sexual sins. But going back to the Christian part of the Bible, don't forget that Jesus is quoted as saying that even thinking about adultery is equivalent doing it, which at least leaves open the possibility of other sexual sins being considered just as bad in thought as in deed. As far as I can see, there is no room for any doubt that the Bible is distinctly unfriendly to homosexuality, and both the Jewish and Christian portions class homosexual acts as extremely serious sins: a death-penalty crime in the Jewish Scriptures, and classed with murder in I Timothy chapter 1.

Politesub53 -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 12:23:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Those texts are pretty specific and there is no denying what they say. As far as Christian sacred text, I'd have to disagree with you. I've read the bible, and found nothing that condones "discrimination" against homosexuals. Firm I felt the following was a tad homophobic. No doubt someone will try and explain why it doesnt mean what it says. "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."

kdsub -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 12:29:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Those texts are pretty specific and there is no denying what they say. As far as Christian sacred text, I'd have to disagree with you. I've read the bible, and found nothing that condones "discrimination" against homosexuals. Firm I felt the following was a tad homophobic. No doubt someone will try and explain why it doesnt mean what it says. "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." But But...what if a woman lies with a woman is that OK? hmmm God must be a woman to pick sides. I always say to myself...men wrote the Bible through inspiration...I think some of their personal flawed feelings crept into their inspiration. God forgive them Butch

rulemylife -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 12:29:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Where was the "call for discrimination" in the passage you quoted? When someone is condemned as being unworthy that invites discrimination. So, it's your interpretation that we are talking about, not actual Christian ethics and beliefs? Firm I see, game time has started. Sorry Firm, I decline to participate. But let me know if you have anything further to discuss that actually addresses the topic and I'll be happy to respond.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 12:50:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Those texts are pretty specific and there is no denying what they say. As far as Christian sacred text, I'd have to disagree with you. I've read the bible, and found nothing that condones "discrimination" against homosexuals. Firm I felt the following was a tad homophobic. No doubt someone will try and explain why it doesnt mean what it says. "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." Leviticus. Old Testament. Firm

odysseyIndeed -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 12:58:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: odysseyIndeed That passage does not tell us to discriminate against homosexuals. If people truly in their hearts believed that, then they would also discriminate against the other people mentioned in that passage. Two drunks can get married to each other, two thieves can marry each other, etc. I believe homophobia stems from fear - not fear of the homosexual exactly, but fear that the homophobic person may end up in a homosexual encounter or actually be a bit homosexual or bisexual themselves and are fighting it. I'm not homophobic, but then I'm also not at all bisexual or homosexual. My personal belief is as long as no one is abusing another living thing they can live the life they choose, and if people truly believe that a certain section of people are going to go to hell when they die, why in the world make their life on earth a living hell as well by mistreating them and discriminating against them? While I agree with your beliefs, I don't agree with your evaluation of the passage. Of course it does not say to discriminate against homosexuals, it only says they will rot in hell because of their evil ways. And I'm quite sure that does absolutely nothing to promote discrimination against them. I am of the opinion that people who cherry pick verses or partial phrases from the Bible already carry the belief/homophobia/discrimination in their hearts and try to mold the Bible to fit their preconceived ideas. If they really believed that gave them license to discriminate and judge others then, as I said before, they would not skip over the parts about lying and adultery and fornicating and thieving and all of the other "judgments" in that verse. A lot of people who claim to be Christian try to mold the Bible to fit their life rather than mold their life to be in line with the Bible. I am also of the opinion that that verse and those surrounding it are not put there for us to judge others by but for us to judge ourselves by and to find the "beam in our own eye."

rulemylife -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 1:07:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub But But...what if a woman lies with a woman is that OK? It is in my book. In fact it's more than OK, it's highly encouraged.

Politesub53 -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 1:12:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Leviticus. Old Testament. Firm 20 something from memory, along with a whole long list of others due the chop. Doesnt that count then or are you limiting things to suit your argument.

rulemylife -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 1:20:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: odysseyIndeed I am of the opinion that people who cherry pick verses or partial phrases from the Bible already carry the belief/homophobia/discrimination in their hearts and try to mold the Bible to fit their preconceived ideas. If they really believed that gave them license to discriminate and judge others then, as I said before, they would not skip over the parts about lying and adultery and fornicating and thieving and all of the other "judgments" in that verse. A lot of people who claim to be Christian try to mold the Bible to fit their life rather than mold their life to be in line with the Bible. Then what you are saying is that the ideas presented in the Bible have no influence on the people who read it or who attend church services where it is not only read to them but interpreted for them. You want to believe it is about preconceived ideas. Where were those ideas conceived?

Hillwilliam -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 1:25:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub But But...what if a woman lies with a woman is that OK? It is in my book. In fact it's more than OK, it's highly encouraged. Id rather be between em.

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