RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia

RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (Full Version)

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rulemylife -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 1:40:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub But But...what if a woman lies with a woman is that OK? It is in my book. In fact it's more than OK, it's highly encouraged. Id rather be between em. You are a pervert who will rot in hell. The Bible clearly says one man and one woman. Or maybe not, depending on who you believe.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 1:50:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife I see, game time has started. Sorry Firm, I decline to participate. But let me know if you have anything further to discuss that actually addresses the topic and I'll be happy to respond. You claimed that the majority of "homophobia" results from religious beliefs (defining "homophobia" would be nice). I said perhaps it is the fact that some people discriminate, and then find validation for it in a written text. Your position was restated that "the reverse is true" i.e. that religious people read a religious text, and then based on that text, decide to "discriminate". You then claim that "those texts are pretty specific and there is no denying what they say", meaning (I assume) those religious texts which require "homophobia" or "discrimination". I asked for a specific example, and a link to a "fundamentalists" denomination that agreed with your determination. You failed to do so, giving a passage, and giving your personal interpretation. Not an interpretation of any religious organization or denomination. Not anything to connect the dots, or contravene my hypothesis. Simply your bald unsupported position. When I challenge you on it, you claim foul, and simply decide to desert the field. You are guilty (just as some religious members are, who will take a passage in exclusion to justify their position) of not putting the passage you provided in context of Christian theology. Specifically, that all people are sinners, have fallen short, and do not qualify for salvation based on simply their own actions. Combine this with the injunctions to "judge not least ye be judged" and "ye without sin cast the first stone", it is apparent to anyone who actually makes an effort to understand Christianity that "discrimination" and/or "homophobia" is not condoned by the mainstream (nor the majority of the "fundamental" denominations) of Christianity. Most of the ones who do, have their attitude, and then find justification for it in the written word. You are doing exactly the same thing. Firm

hertz -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 1:54:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife I truly love this argument that not believing in something is really a belief system. The belief that one does not believe in something is a belief system, as is the belief that one does not believe in anything, or the belief that the belief that one does not believe in something is not a belief. You believe, whether you like it or not and regardless of your snack choice. quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Just me but I believe homophobia has its roots not in religion but in survival of the race. I think this might be another of those apparently reasonable ideas the basis of which, were it to be fully investigated, might prove to be false. Many people nowadays will argue (in a Darwinesque way) that the free market is natural and right because the natural way of humanity is to compete, and only the strongest survive. In fact, this whole premise is badly flawed, and altruism also has its place in the survival race. I suspect homosexuality may be something similar - completely natural, completely normal, and, in some way, a contributing factor to the survival of our race. quote: ORIGINAL: odysseyIndeed I believe homophobia stems from fear - not fear of the homosexual exactly, but fear that the homophobic person may end up in a homosexual encounter or actually be a bit homosexual or bisexual themselves and are fighting it. I tend to agree. Regarding the Bible being the source of Christian prejudice against gays, surely, if this were truly the case, we would see some major prejudice against banks and banking and the accumulation of wealth. The Bible is full of stuff warning us against personal gain. But strangely enough, the US socio-political system almost (but not quite) worships money and selfish personal gain. How did that happen? Why do we not (almost) worship Homosexuality, and discriminate against Bankers? Or discriminate against both, if the Bible (or the Qu'ran or whatever) is responsible?

FirmhandKY -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 1:56:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Leviticus. Old Testament. 20 something from memory, along with a whole long list of others due the chop. Doesnt that count then or are you limiting things to suit your argument. No, the old Testament doesn't count. We are talking about Christianity, not Judaism. Firm

odysseyIndeed -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 2:30:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: odysseyIndeed I am of the opinion that people who cherry pick verses or partial phrases from the Bible already carry the belief/homophobia/discrimination in their hearts and try to mold the Bible to fit their preconceived ideas. If they really believed that gave them license to discriminate and judge others then, as I said before, they would not skip over the parts about lying and adultery and fornicating and thieving and all of the other "judgments" in that verse. A lot of people who claim to be Christian try to mold the Bible to fit their life rather than mold their life to be in line with the Bible. Then what you are saying is that the ideas presented in the Bible have no influence on the people who read it or who attend church services where it is not only read to them but interpreted for them. You want to believe it is about preconceived ideas. Where were those ideas conceived? I'm not saying they have no influence. I am saying that a number of people tend to hear what they want to hear and disregard the rest. They thump the Bible about homosexuality but their eyes glaze over momentarily when the rest of the passage is pointed out. Or one verse is taken out of context. This can be said for a number of topics in the Bible. Discrimination in my opinion begins in the home by what a child witnesses those around them doing and saying. It's a chicken or the egg argument. I believe most people who hold prejudice in their heart use their chosen Holy text to try to justify their feelings. I've never met anyone who was wholly non-homophobic who read a verse in the Bible and said "Well okay then guess I gotta discriminate against them." .. that was already inside them and in their (to my mind) warped logic they think the Bible is backing them up. I disagree that it is - but that's just my own perspective based on my own life and my own Bible studying and reading which I do every night.

littlewonder -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 3:17:55 PM)
a collection of myths...to YOU To those who believe in their faith it is their way of life, their holy of holies. They justify their views on what their faith tells them is right or wrong..not what you tell them is right or wrong.

Politesub53 -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 4:41:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Leviticus. Old Testament. 20 something from memory, along with a whole long list of others due the chop. Doesnt that count then or are you limiting things to suit your argument. No, the old Testament doesn't count. We are talking about Christianity, not Judaism. Firm You seem to be making new rules up as you go along. The Op was about homophobia and religion, you seem to be switching track with every post you make. As for the two sections of the Bible, my Protestant school taught us both applied equally to Christianity. Maybe its different where you are.

rulemylife -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 4:46:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hertz The belief that one does not believe in something is a belief system, as is the belief that one does not believe in anything, or the belief that the belief that one does not believe in something is not a belief. Abbott and Costello "Who's On First"

thishereboi -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 5:14:03 PM)
quote: men wrote the Bible through inspiration... Good point. And wasn't Paul locked up when he wrote a lot of it. In a prison...surrounded by all those horny men. Just sayin[8D]

FirmhandKY -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 5:37:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Leviticus. Old Testament. 20 something from memory, along with a whole long list of others due the chop. Doesnt that count then or are you limiting things to suit your argument. No, the old Testament doesn't count. We are talking about Christianity, not Judaism. Firm You seem to be making new rules up as you go along. The Op was about homophobia and religion, you seem to be switching track with every post you make. As for the two sections of the Bible, my Protestant school taught us both applied equally to Christianity. Maybe its different where you are. Then your school was terribly misinformed about Christianity, as are you. Firm

littlewonder -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 5:56:17 PM)
catholicism believes the new testament is the true way to God. Protestantism believes both testaments need to be heeded. It's one of the views that split christianity.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 6:37:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder Protestantism believes both testaments need to be heeded. littlewonder, I do not believe that to be an accurate statement, as wide as it is. Added for clarity: The laws and prophecies of the old testament were all closed off or fulfilled by the Christ in the new testament. Most (all as far as I know) Christians resolve in favor of the new testament, if there is a conflict between the two. The "new" testament is the "new" testament for that very reason. This is why you can find the New Testament often published by itself. Firm

FirmhandKY -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 6:41:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 You seem to be making new rules up as you go along. The Op was about homophobia and religion, you seem to be switching track with every post you make. Read starting at post 10, where I specifically said that I was talking about Christianity, to which rml then responded, and continued the conversation. Firm

littlewonder -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 7:04:57 PM)
I can assure you having grown up in the protestant church, we read both testaments, that both were just as important as God's Law. One did not negate the other.

Owner59 -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 7:13:45 PM)
Homophobia,like all hate fear and loathing of those who`re different, is a part of our dark sides as humans.

TreasureKY -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 7:16:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder I can assure you having grown up in the protestant church, we read both testaments, that both were just as important as God's Law. One did not negate the other. Oh, well... I'm sure since you've assured him, that settles it. He can just take it on your word that the protestant church he grew up in, the protestant church I grew up in, and the protestant churches that our families and friends grew up in were just doing it all wrong. [8\|] Besides which... just where did he say "negate"?

FirmhandKY -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 7:20:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 Homophobia,like all hate fear and loathing of those who`re different, is a part of our dark sides as humans. Unexpected support, I'll admit, but I agree with you completely. Firm

dreamysubmale -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 7:53:41 PM)
Where there any pre Christian (preceding the Old Testament) homophobia discrimination? Like in past civilizations? Any atheists/agnostics out there that are homophobic…Just an inquisitive

dreamysubmale -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 8:19:55 PM)
Sorry FirmhandKY My question above wasn't aimed at you...it's an open question for whoever wants to answer it. How do you edit posts in here?

DomKen -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 8:38:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Leviticus. Old Testament. 20 something from memory, along with a whole long list of others due the chop. Doesnt that count then or are you limiting things to suit your argument. No, the old Testament doesn't count. We are talking about Christianity, not Judaism. Firm Bullshit. The Old Testament is only a part of Jewish scripture. A part that was chosen for inclusion in the Christian bible by early Christians. If Leviticus didn't matter it would have been left out as was some or all of the books of Maccabee for instance.

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