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Solve the energy crisis - 4/25/2006 7:03:02 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		In the past five years fuel prices have doubled. There has been no comprehensive US energy policy in 20 years. It's time for action. "Investigating", as President Bush suggests, distracts and doesn't solve. My pragmatic solution is this.

Immediately half the federal, state, and local tax on gasoline. Establish a national driving age of 18. Open the entire continental shelf to exploration and drilling as well as the Alaskan field. Reestablish the use of nuclear power. As an incentive and to address the NIMBY attitude, anyone living and any business within 10 miles of the plant gets free energy and pay zero real estate tax.

Establish a national "prize" of $100 Million for any person or company who develops a alternative fuel source or power storage device (battery) which provides a 300 mile range for a 4 passenger sedan.
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RE: Solve the energy crisis - 4/25/2006 7:50:20 AM   
TahoeSadist


Posts: 176
Joined: 8/3/2004
Status: offline 		     I'm with you on nuclear power and I'm with you on drilling. I also say we need more oil refineries. The anti nuke bunch will scream and wail at the notion of more plants (usually with the only coherent words being "Chernobyl" and "T.M.I.") I know, because I have had that debate with them, particularly when I lived in PA while TMI had it's malfunction. My answer is that technology especially in the field of controls, computer systems, matealurgy, engineering, etc. have combined to make it possible to build safer plants than ever before. Just look what it has done for auto and airplane safety. I would imagine the same could be said for a series of updated refineries. Not being a petroengineer-type it'd be a question I'd love to ask one as to whether tech has changed since the last new refinery went online in the US (I always hear it's been 30 years) so that newer designs could be more efficient.
     Not to leave out the quaint "alternative fuels" crowd. Yep, you can run a vehicle on alcohol. It does however take energy to distill alcohol, as well as to plant, harvest, and transport the fermentable matter of choice to that distillery. Also, as alcohol is a less efficient fuel than gasoline, it takes I believe roughly twice the alcohol to go the same distance. So we'd need to make a lot of booze to drive on. I recommend you fire up the trusty old still, but that would require the Federal Gov't to remove the prohibition on distilling alcohol without a licence.
     All fun aside, I'm in favor of becoming more energy independent. I am a long time rail advocate, and yes while currently most trains in the US are diesel, electrics can work if the electricity is priced low enough (once again, enter the nuclear power, stage right). Getting people into traveling by rail is another matter, but high-speed rail has shown advantages over flying up to certain distances. I do not believe there's a single solution, but it is something that must be flexible. If a person wants to run his vehicle on alcohol, and thinks he can do it economically on alcohol, then he should be allowed to set up production of his own fuel. If you have property that has oil under it, and you want to drill, so be it. There are far too many handcuffs on the people of the country as a whole, and that does tend to limit inovation and creativity.

I have other thoughts, but must run off to work, as there's apparently a complete family counting on my tax dollars somewhere,
Eric




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RE: Solve the energy crisis - 4/25/2006 9:04:09 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
  • Remove all light bulbs from non essential buildings.
  • Ban automibiles.
  • Reinstitute horses for horsepower.
  • No tax on oats.
  • Turn horse shit into methane gass for fueling shit/fart powered electrical generators.
  • All adults to have fart collecting containers attached with variable sized butt tubes.
  • Make baked beans and penuts tax free and promote these as healthy food stuffs.
  • Trial this for two years and when proven take it to the UN for world wide useage, and threaten to fart on those countries who don't comply.... 


< Message edited by IronBear -- 4/25/2006 9:06:02 AM >

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RE: Solve the energy crisis - 4/25/2006 9:16:54 AM   
slaverosebeauty


Posts: 1941
Joined: 12/12/2004
From: Cali
Status: offline 		What about solar power?? Those of us in California, for the most part know all about the power of the sun; why not use more solar power. Better for the environment and its a LOT cheeper. Peopel in my area have solar panels on their houses and in the summer when it gets above 110, their meters run backwards, and for the most part, they have lower Pg&E bills.

Solar powered cars or even ethanol would be a great altenative. Ok, so I am a bit of an environmentalist.
Their is still water and windopower, I know that PG&E uses those already, but they can do more.

And what about those kids in the midwest somewhere who were using corn and other types of food to power a vehicle, can't that be mass produced in 'environ friendly' plants?

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RE: Solve the energy crisis - 4/25/2006 9:24:06 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Actually we have a guy here who has adapteg his dieslel 4x4 to use either diesel of the alternative tank filled with cleaned, disgarded oil from commercial deep fryers.. It apparently works well too, and the emitions are clean and sweeter smelling.... 

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RE: Solve the energy crisis - 4/25/2006 9:31:08 AM   
fastlane


Posts: 2159
Joined: 5/26/2005
Status: offline 		Eat lots of BEANS!     Kevin

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RE: Solve the energy crisis - 4/25/2006 9:41:51 AM   
Emperor1956


Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Establish a national "prize" of $100 Million for any person or company who develops a alternative fuel source or power storage device (battery) which provides a 300 mile range for a 4 passenger sedan.


Why bother?  It exists right now.  Drive a hybrid.  We don't need new batteries for the next 5-10 years.  We need gas/electric cars.

So lets get personal with all of you high minded "experts".  What's in your garage?  BE HONEST, or go home.

Me?   1. Toyota Prius  (2002 - its a beauty).  I get 40 mph on average.  Yes, I'm smug.  What are you getting?

          2.  3 adults at home.  3 bicycles.  Ok, I use mine less (I'm an old fat man).  But they are there.

          3.   1 Dunstall-Norton 750 modified.  Hey, who knew a badass speedbike could be so energy efficient?

Nuclear power?  Fine if you want to support a bloated military industrial complex with outdated technology.  In fact, except for self-contained long term applications (a generator at the north pole, or on a submarine), or extremely large (100,000 megawatt +) distribution, nuke power is inefficient, expensive and dirty.  AND you still have to get the power from the reactor to the home thru expensive, unsightly wires.

Geothermal, bioresource, wind are all localized, intelligent partial solutions to electrical power generation.  They don't generate billions for the power/oil/engineering companies, tho.  And by the way "ethanol", etc. is just another way to put $$$ in the hands of the same old folks.  Ethanol power is still 90% fossil fuel.  Now if you were talking a real bio source for cars - more than 50% fueled by alternatives, I'd listen.  That is probably 30 years off.  Until then?  SEE THE TOP OF THIS POST.

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RE: Solve the energy crisis - 4/25/2006 11:07:14 AM   
Amaros


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Joined: 7/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
In the past five years fuel prices have doubled. There has been no comprehensive US energy policy in 20 years. 


Not qute true, Clinton and Gore had begun long term plans to address energy issues in the 21st century. A program to develop affordable feul cell cars involving the major US auto manufacturers was among the first programs gutted by the Bush administration, in spite of the fact that the production costs of such automobiles, while still prohibitive, had been cut in half in the last year of the program.

Bush's mention of hydrogn technologies is lifted straight out of Gore's book, down to the 20 year timeframe - the difference is that Gore wouldn't just have talked about it, but funded the necessary research. Ya know, like he dis with the internet - he's a foreward thinking guy.

The "Million Rooftops" initiative was a well thought out program to encourage the use of photovoltaics using market forces to lower costs - another program that didn't survive the Bush administration.

The energy industry itself advocates the distributed grid concept, the final piece of the puzzle, which simply modified the existing grid to allow input as well as withdrawl of energy - your meter can run backwards. It doesn't dictate the source of the energy, it can be PV, gas turbine, high efficiency coal, wind, or any other sort of micropower - it resolves grid problems that are at the root of our current problem, and that building more big, centralized production units like nukes will only exaccerbate - there is no shortage in supply, hasn't been for some time - it's ineficiencies in the grid itself that cause the problems - 50% of all power genreated disipates in heat and line losses brefore it ever get to it's destination, andwe stiil have sufficient supply.

Micropower can handle increases in demand due to increased use of electric cars, should it occur, easing domestic loads, while existing coal fired and nuclear plants can continue to supply peak and industrial requrements.

The CA "crisis", used as an excuse to gut environmental protections for the public, was not a crisis at all, but the result of energy companies taking advantages in loopholes in CA deregulation to artificially drive prices up.

Put together, these  programs formed the backbone of a comprehensive 20 year plan that doesn't require the huge ongoing public investment, subsidies, or infrastructure changes that are the norm now in the nuclear and oil industries, and will be required in increasing quantities.

Read this, it'll give you the heads up on the direction we'll eventually have to go.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.07/juice_pr.html

< Message edited by Amaros -- 4/25/2006 11:12:58 AM >

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RE: Solve the energy crisis - 4/25/2006 1:23:50 PM   
MsMacComb


Posts: 808
Joined: 3/30/2005
From: My Mothers womb.
Status: offline 		In addition to the Hybrids, solar, wind, water, biodiesel, ethanol and others mentioned I recently saw a thing on PBS about San Francisco using regular food/cardboard trash from restaurants mixed with dog waste collected from parks and walking trails which was converted into power that ran 1000 homes total energy needs.
I honestly think there is no shortage of ideas and methods but rather a lack of desire to prompt large companies to implement and mass produce anything as long as big oil owns the White House.

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RE: Solve the energy crisis - 4/25/2006 1:31:59 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		We are sucessfully running a couple of wind farms in Aussie in locations where the wind is constant and comes in from the Southern Ocean from Antarctica via Tasmania.. Many home here also are running solar hot water systems..Solar power for us would be a geat alternative once the solar panells can be brought down in price and governments extract their digits.. I agree far too much power is in the hands of oil companies...

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Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

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RE: Solve the energy crisis - 4/25/2006 1:46:39 PM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
quote:



Establish a national "prize" of $100 Million for any person or company who develops a alternative fuel source or power storage device (battery) which provides a 300 mile range for a 4 passenger sedan.



I'm actually with you on the whole thing; it's a great idea. The only problem I have is this : I think the idea regards the hundred million dollar prize should be highly highly publicized! Because I think if you and Beth came up with a miraculous invention -- Something in the order of extremely cheap, alternative energy source {like zero point energy} -- that would hurt and/or destroy the Petroleum industry, we'd hear about your bodies being ''fished'' out of the tide off Laguna Beach - No joke *wink*



 - R




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RE: Solve the energy crisis - 4/25/2006 2:11:45 PM   
Pavel


Posts: 308
Joined: 1/10/2005
From: Washington
Status: offline 		I had this coversation with a friend of mine, but I think our proposed "baby fueled power plants" wouldn't go over well with all you bleeding heart liberals (think of it as a "Modest Proposal" ala energy crunch).  An equally unacceptable, but amuseing for me at least, would be requireing everyone in the United States to pass an age appropriate physical fitness test.  If you fail said test, you'd be put on a treadmill for X number of hours a day, which in turn would be used to generate power.

Of course, that being a gross violation of "human rights" (whatever those really are), I'm at a bit of an impasse.  Nuclear power is good, but has that really awesome stigma that makes some portions of the population explode with protesty fury, as really, if it's nuclear, then that means it can, and eventually will explode, ending the world as we know it (seriously, I had someone take such a stance when talking about Radioisotope Thermoeletric Generators, and that was just fun stuff). 

Geothermal power while really nifty when it works, has the following major problems; maintence, and uh, you need a geothermal vent handy to plug it in to.  For plenty of places, that's really not much of an option.  Wind is grand, if you've got the space for it, and don't have endangered birds, bats, or whatever to fly into them and get killed (which in turn rather irks off the same people who usually support wind power).  Bioresource, eh, I don't know enough about it to comment properly, but I'd imagined an efficent, localized solution wouldn't just be ignored because of big bad oil.

Of course, that all said, the level of influence that big business, oil or no has on the US government is just spooky as is.  If you sit back a little bit and think though, I think you'll realize that it's not just a president Bush thing, but it's more your elected representives from both parties. 

Anyways, why the hell am I here and not working on my hist 450 paper?

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RE: Solve the energy crisis - 4/25/2006 2:41:22 PM   
MasterRenegade77


Posts: 1852
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Upstate N.Y. (Broome Co.)
Status: offline
Hard as it might seem to believe there are free energy sources "BUT" the Oil & Energy companies don't want them on the Market & will buy the Patents, discredit & even Kill you if you tried to Market one that they consider a threat...
Check out this Link...
Divine Cosmos - CHAPTER 05: AETHER, ELECTROMAGNETISM AND FREE ENERGY

Tesla Discovered a way to harness Free Energy from the Aether & J.P. Morgan Cut his founding as there was no way to put a meter on it to charge  people with!!!

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RE: Solve the energy crisis - 4/25/2006 4:06:01 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Energy consumption is the real problem and not energy shortage. I know there is quite a lot of scepticism about global warming but scientists can't work out why the earth is warming up at the rate it is without adding in human activity, unless the scientists work for oil companies that is. With the increased demand from China and India, if the majority of scientists are right, then a major crisis is heading for our grandchildren and maybe even our children later in their lives. Carrying on consuming energy at our current rate is a symptom of the me, me, me, society. Energy for cars is only a small part of the problem, it takes a lot of energy to make cars in the first place and the bigger the car the more energy it takes to make. Then there is air conditioning and many other unnecessary luxuries in our life that take up energy. The average American consumes twice as much energy as the average European who consumes three or four times more than the average Chinese. Basically we are squandering the survival chances of the succeeding generations on unnecessary luxury today. Simply looking for and using more carbon fuels is burying our heads in the sand.

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RE: Solve the energy crisis - 4/25/2006 4:56:26 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

I know there is quite a lot of scepticism about global warming but scientists can't work out why the earth is warming up at the rate it is without adding in human activity, unless the scientists work for oil companies that is.


MC,
Are they right now or right in 1975? The cover story on Time Magazine dated June 24, 1974 warned of the coming Ice Age. At the time they pointed to the fact the world was; "growing gradually cooler for the past three decades. The trend shows no indication of reversing."  I guess they should have just waited 30 years.

Entire article: http://www.junkscience.com/mar06/Time_AnotherIceAge_June241974.pdf

Even the exact same scientist now warning of global warning, when he was 20 wrote an article in Science magazine warning of "extensive Northern Hemisphere glaciation".
quote:

While worrying about Montana's receding glaciers, Schweitzer, who is 50, should also worry about the fact that when he was 20 he was told to be worried, very worried, about global cooling. Science magazine (Dec. 10, 1976) warned of "extensive Northern Hemisphere glaciation." Science Digest (February 1973) reported that "the world's climatologists are agreed" that we must "prepare for the next ice age." The Christian Science Monitor ("Warning: Earth's Climate is Changing Faster Than Even Experts Expect," Aug. 27, 1974) reported that glaciers "have begun to advance," "growing seasons in England and Scandinavia are getting shorter" and "the North Atlantic is cooling down about as fast as an ocean can cool." Newsweek agreed ("The Cooling World," April 28, 1975) that meteorologists "are almost unanimous" that catastrophic famines might result from the global cooling that the New York Times (Sept. 14, 1975) said "may mark the return to another ice age." The Times (May 21, 1975) also said "a major cooling of the climate is widely considered inevitable" now that it is "well established" that the Northern Hemisphere's climate "has been getting cooler since about 1950." Article: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/04/cooler_heads_needed_on_warming.html


The ego of man and his feeling of self importance is astounding. In relative terms, existing on the planet for a micro-second, when compared to the age of the solar system; we feel omnipotent about our influence on planet. Ignore the sun, and the periodic fluctuations or solar emissions or the frequency and size of weather effecting solar flairs, and sun spots. Ignore changes in the magnetic field around the earth caused by varying levels of the energy it absorbs from the sun. What humans have done in the last 100 years since the inception of the industrial age, has a direct cause and effect relationship for global weather conditions.

Astronomical cycles span decades and centuries. These cycles put man's influence where it belongs, at a very insignificant level.

quote:

Astronomical Causes
  • 11 year and 206 year cycles: Cycles of solar variability ( sunspot activity )
  • 21,000 year cycle: Earth's combined tilt and elliptical orbit around the Sun ( precession of the equinoxes )
  • 41,000 year cycle: Cycle of the +/- 1.5° wobble in Earth's orbit ( tilt )
  • 100,000 year cycle: Variations in the shape of Earth's elliptical orbit ( cycle of eccentricity )

Source: http://www.clearlight.com/~mhieb/WVFossils/ice_ages.html 


If global warming is a recent current event, how are vineyards in northern England explained during the Roman era? The chariots were environmentally friendly.

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RE: Solve the energy crisis - 4/25/2006 5:06:10 PM   
ScooterTrash


Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		Interesting post M&B and some decent responses. As TS said;
quote:

Also, as alcohol is a less efficient fuel than gasoline, it takes I believe roughly twice the alcohol to go the same distance.
He is deadly accurate here, at least as far as the power or BTUs produced, When I was racing hot and heavy I tried running Methanol one year and it did in fact take about 2.5 gallons per pass (1/4 mile), which on race fuel (Turbo Blue) took around a gallon. For what it's worth, it did go faster and ran cooler however, but it definately takes more of it. The part I don't get is although I know for a fact it's cheaper per gallon, when they add it to gasoline they usually charge more? Guess it makes as much sense as years ago when they took the lead out (or didn't have to put it in) of the regular, they charged more..maybe it a modifying perk for the oil companies...go figure.
   I've been working with a supplier recently who is developing an advanced Hybrid for a US based OEM. The big three have been slow to react but they really are trying very hard and investing a lot of money (scary amounts) into developing much more efficient hybrid vehicles. Of course the consumer will have to foot the bill eventually so the OEMs will get their investment money back...so I don't know that anyone will save any money, but some of the dependence on fossil fuels might slow down.
   Myself, I am still under the thought that hydrogen is the ultimate answer. It's everywhere, it just needs to be unleashed. Perhaps the old story about a car that could run on water might come true, who knows. I did like Renegades link to the electromagnetism and free energy story, I'll have to take the time to read all the way through that one, to get a grasp of what it's all about.
   In the meantime, I think we are all going to have to just bite the bullet, attempt to restrain our use somewhat and be prepared to fork over a lot of cash at the pump. The nuclear idea would be great, and I am still under the belief that it's natural, after all, it didn't come from the moon or anything, so what's not natural about it. I guess that's beside the point and don't throw rocks at me for that, but I think all too often we are not willing to take that risk, that leap of faith. We are just so content to sit and wait until the resources we are comfortable with are gone, that we simply don't look over the next hill. I think it's about time we started looking, because although I may not see us run out of fuel, some of the younger ones here or at least their offspring very likely might.

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RE: Solve the energy crisis - 4/25/2006 5:11:38 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

I know there is quite a lot of scepticism about global warming but scientists can't work out why the earth is warming up at the rate it is without adding in human activity, unless the scientists work for oil companies that is.


MC,
Are they right now or right in 1975? The cover story on Time Magazine dated June 24, 1974 warned of the coming Ice Age. At the time they pointed to the fact the world was; "growing gradually cooler for the past three decades. The trend shows no indication of reversing."  I guess they should have just waited 30 years.



I remember the ice age thing from the seventies which made me sceptical about global warming for quite a long time. Now I have been convinced that global warming is more than the latest serving by the doom and gloom merchants but I accept there is no conclusive proof. My feelings are now, better safe than sorry and energy efficiency and conservation is a good thing anyway to help stop the dangerous competition for energy resources. Also, using less energy would create a cleaner environment which is no bad thing.

But yes, the jury is still out.

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RE: Solve the energy crisis - 4/25/2006 5:14:25 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		I saw on the tube a couple of weeks ago that Brazil is now 100% self-sufficient in energy, due to its beginning, in the 1970s, programs of nationwide alternative fuel derived from sugar cane. Don't know how clean it is *shrugs*.... but I bet they enjoy not having to worry about Venezuala or Saudi Arabia going postal.
 

< Message edited by Level -- 4/25/2006 5:15:29 PM >

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RE: Solve the energy crisis - 4/25/2006 10:51:01 PM   
MsMacComb


Posts: 808
Joined: 3/30/2005
From: My Mothers womb.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

I saw on the tube a couple of weeks ago that Brazil is now 100% self-sufficient in energy, due to its beginning, in the 1970s, programs of nationwide alternative fuel derived from sugar cane. Don't know how clean it is *shrugs*.... but I bet they enjoy not having to worry about Venezuala or Saudi Arabia going postal.
 
 

I saw the same thing and its supposed to be far cleaner than fossil fuels (as in a lot cleaner). I also find it amusing/sad that our own government pays farmers (like me as I own one with extensive acreage on CRPs) NOT to farm land that could be growing corn/grains for ethanol.

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RE: Solve the energy crisis - 4/26/2006 2:26:01 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		It is sad, I agree, MsMacC. I also saw on 60 Minutes how in Wyoming (I think) they're expanding operations of getting oil from surface pits, extracting it from sand. Supposedly huge amounts of oil to be had.

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