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RE: Solve the energy crisis - 4/29/2006 9:48:00 AM   
WeeIttyBitty


Posts: 115
Joined: 4/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

Tar sand and shale are there, the point however, is that it's much more expensive and difficult to extract oil from them - in other words, the end of cheap oil is drawing nigh.

When a "what me worry" neocon like the hand puppet says it, you know it's true, all the argueing in the world isn't going to change it.


Cheap oil isnt drawing nigh, its over.Oil will never agian be $20 a barrel. $50 or $70 oil isnt the end of western civilization and makes tar sands cost effectve to extract. Its this senario that gives the Saudi's 50 fits, because once the tar sands are developed, they will no longer have the 'oil weapon' and will no longer be the spoiled child of US foriegn policy. Oil will never agian be cheap, but its not going to be the disaster the fear mongers claim.


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RE: Solve the energy crisis - 4/30/2006 5:55:28 AM   
Tantalus42


Posts: 51
Joined: 1/27/2006
Status: offline 		Solutions to this problem:

1.  Immediately RAISE the taxes on gasoline and oil products by at least another $1 per gallon and plow that money back into investments for public transportation and alternative fuel vehicles.  Americans will start buying more sensible cars in huge quantiies once gas hits $4 to $5 a gallon, so let's hurry that along.

2. Increase the surcharges on all vehicles that get less then 22 mpg by 20%.

3. Government upfront payment (not another tax deducation) of 50% of the cost if you add a solar system or wind system to your home.  Government requiring all electric companies to go to net metering (so if you generate more then you use, they have to pay YOU).

4. Environmentalists have got to shut up and let SOME of these power alternatives be put into play.  I'm sorry, but a migrating flock of song birds is small price to pay for a wind powered system on a mountain top that could generate power for 100,000 homes and knock out one smog creating midwest coal powered plant. 

5. Local and state governments need to look into dams.  There are an estimated 6,000 small dams in New England alone that are no longer being used for anything and can be adapted to generate power for their local communities using modern hydro-electric power plants.  New dams need not be built if we can utilize the existing ones to augment our needs.

6.  Take back every piece of the latest budget bills that GAVE these billion-dollar generating oil companies direct subsidies to look for more oil!!!  How stupid is that, the taxpayer paying the rich guys to do what the rich guys should be doing anyways if they want to stay in business.  Duh!


We should be leading the world in weening ourselves off oil, then selling those solutions back to the rest of the global market.  Instead we let others take the lead while the world tries to drag us kicking and screaming along.  Americans have to start making sacrifices and living BETTER.  Some of the things we have already done:

1.  We still have two cars, but both get above 27 mpg.  I have a Scion which gets near 35 when I stick to the speed limit (which is often these days), and we have a station wagon to tote around the whole family with that gets 27.  We miss the ole S.U.V. (Slave Utility Vehicle) but it was a small price to pay for lower car payments and better fuel mileage.

2.  We've replace every single lightbulb in the house with low wattage ones.  Same light output, 1/6th the energy, and last significantly longer.

3.  We do NOT shop at Walmart.  Period.  EVER!!!!  I don't care if it's 20% cheaper there.

4.  Heat was never set above 65 all winter, and the AC will remain off this summer.

(in reply to WeeIttyBitty)
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RE: Solve the energy crisis - 4/30/2006 8:04:35 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		Tantalus,
Workable plan. I'd vote for the candidate who had that platform. I'd even send them the $100 the Republican's want to send me, or whatever it is the Democrats want to do. It's hard to know if any of them have any plan co-mingled into their constant finger pointing, criticism. and blame. Except for the poster boy Ted Kennedy who's plan is to keep a proposed clean energy generating wind farm from affecting his sailing winds in Hyannis.

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RE: Solve the energy crisis - 4/30/2006 12:01:49 PM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
quote:

3.  We do NOT shop at Walmart.  Period.  EVER!!!!  I don't care if it's 20% cheaper there.


I'm impressed. Imagine what would happen if we could just get another twenty-five percent of the populace to think this way.


 - R


_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Solve the energy crisis - 4/30/2006 12:25:45 PM   
ScooterTrash


Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sharainks

Our government needs to quit worrying about how many mpg a car gets and start looking at alternative power.  Wind maybe?  How about constant battery charging from the wind blowing past the car as you drive? Yeah an electric car powered by driving it? I think theres a way to make that work but I'm no scientist.
I'm not a scientist either, but from a mechanical standpoint I regret it doesn't work. I had a similar theory with basically a generator, battery, electric motor in series. The problem with this, is the power robbing influence of friction and energy loss due to resistance. Falls under the heading of "you can't create energy, you an just convert it from one form to another, and it takes some energy to do that". But these ideas is what eventually led to the development of hybrids, where you utilize a source of mechanical energy, operating at it's peak efficiency (usually something like a small internal combustion engine) to generate electricity and charge a battery and then you utilize the power in the battery to run the "whatever". There are not the end all, solve all, solution, but they are a far cry closer to what we have been using to power vehicles up to this point.

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RE: Solve the energy crisis - 4/30/2006 2:03:13 PM   
WeeIttyBitty


Posts: 115
Joined: 4/24/2006
Status: offline 		Walmart? what does walmart have to do with energy?

Solar cells are not yet ready for prime time. Currently the production of a solar cell produces far more pollution (and highly toxic pollution) than using coal to produce the same amount of energy. Also, the production of a solar cell requires more energy than it will ever produce.

Taxes have never been a solution to anyone's problem. Right now gas is 1.094 per litre (4.8 litres to a gallon) I dont see people driving less - traffic is as bad as when gas .65 a litre (if not worse) ... 

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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Solve the energy crisis - 4/30/2006 2:41:26 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		No, a gallon is 3.7854 liters.  A gallon is four quarts, and a liter is a little more than a quart, so a gallon must be less than 4 liters.

Edited to add...Oh, I just realized you may be talking about a British gallon.  Anyway, it's still not 4.8 liters.  It's 4.546.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WeeIttyBitty

Right now gas is 1.094 per litre (4.8 litres to a gallon). 


< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 4/30/2006 2:44:27 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Solve the energy crisis - 4/30/2006 3:15:23 PM   
WeeIttyBitty


Posts: 115
Joined: 4/24/2006
Status: offline 		The point was, that gas is more expensive in most other countries, and it hasnt changed anything.. A gas tax wont help.

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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Solve the energy crisis - 4/30/2006 3:25:46 PM   
MasterG2kTR


Posts: 6677
Joined: 8/7/2004
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline 		Here's a possible solution to the energy problem....check it out

http://www.usda.gov/rus/electric/success/wi-success.htm

(in reply to WeeIttyBitty)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Solve the energy crisis - 4/30/2006 3:41:47 PM   
ChainedExistence


Posts: 507
Joined: 2/5/2005
Status: offline 		I heard on the news it was 37 cents in Venezuela...

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Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Solve the energy crisis - 4/30/2006 4:05:26 PM   
LadiesBladewing


Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline 		I hear a lot of people saying that there's no proof that:

1. Oil resources are becoming depleted
2. The earth's climate is being shifted
3. Potentially useful species of plants and animals are being driven to extinction
4. Our oceans are being overfished
5. We are dumping enough trash that there will be no place left to dump our garbage without having to live in the mess within the next 50 years.
6. Insufficent resources are going into alternative energy/sustainable agriculture/sustainable architecture

Maybe there is no proof, though I have to admit that I've seen some compelling information, but my question to you is, whether or not you believe the information, why would anyone -choose- to behave wastefully and ignorantly, just because they -can-? What benefit is there in choosing a short-sighed, limited-return way of life when we can kill two birds with one stone by choosing more efficient, more sustainable, and less externally-dependent methods of living? Where do we put our money? I put mine into the things that will provide the longest-term benefits over the broadest scope -- because it makes sense. Even if all the doomsayers are wrong, the -worst- we will end up with by choosing the more environmentally friendly options is a healthier world. If the doomsayers are -right-, by waiting for "sufficient proof" and continuing to live short-sightedly, we are virtually guaranteeing years of discomfort, if not our own demise.

Lady Zephyr

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Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Solve the energy crisis - 4/30/2006 4:25:54 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		The minute you hear a lobby taking the "there's no proof that such-and-such" line, you can be damned sure it's true.  I don't even blame them for taking such a lame approach: it's been working.  All we hear from politicos about global warming is bullshit.  "There's no proof" this, "we need hard science not appeals to emotion" that.  My ass.  Climatologists all agree about global warming.  The only thing they don't agree about is whether it's going to be just a major disaster or an end-of-life-on-earth disaster.

The reference to overfishing really amused me.  Anyone with any knowledge of the fisheries business knows that hauls have dwindled.  But there's no overfishing...  I guess there won't be any "proof" until there aren't any fish left to be counted.

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Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Solve the energy crisis - 4/30/2006 4:41:56 PM   
WeeIttyBitty


Posts: 115
Joined: 4/24/2006
Status: offline 		There is a long 1500 year cycle in the earths climate. There is no proof that human activity is doing anything to the climate.

Do you know why Greenland is called Greenland? Because when the Vikings discovered it, GRAPES where growing wild there...

I think we have to long at longer term weather cycles and calm down... The fear mongers are wrong.

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RE: Solve the energy crisis - 4/30/2006 4:46:26 PM   
DelightMachine


Posts: 652
Joined: 1/21/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Tantalus,
Workable plan.


The only way to really judge any of these plans we have here is to see how much they cost, how much gas would be saved and what the other upsides and downsides might be. It doesn't look like anyone here has any kind of expertise to do that (maybe there's something out there on the Web -- I don't have the time to check).

But not bad for a brainstorming session though.

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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Solve the energy crisis - 4/30/2006 10:50:03 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		That explains why ice has been exposed in Antarctica that hasn't seen the light of day in 10,000 years.

Next.

Or put it this way.  Find TWO scientists--real scientists with a university affiliation, not lobbyists for oil companies--who agree with you.  Never mind the four thousand who agree with me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WeeIttyBitty

There is a long 1500 year cycle in the earths climate.

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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Solve the energy crisis - 5/1/2006 12:17:21 PM   
Tantalus42


Posts: 51
Joined: 1/27/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WeeIttyBitty

Walmart? what does walmart have to do with energy?


Walmart is one of the largest importer of chinese made goods, and it is partially the fact of increased Chinese production that is leading to increased energy prices.  Plus Walmart is just plain evil in the way they treat their employees.

quote:

Solar cells are not yet ready for prime time. Currently the production of a solar cell produces far more pollution (and highly toxic pollution) than using coal to produce the same amount of energy. Also, the production of a solar cell requires more energy than it will ever produce.


Wow... where do you get THOSE false views from?  The coal industry?  Solar cells are primarily made of silicon wafers, and if you read any of the relevant articles on the production of these items, you'll see that pollution generated is negligible.  Most of the rest of the cost of manufacture comes from the work of putting them together. 

In addtion, the energy payback time for solar cells (the amount of time it takes for them to produce more energy then used to make them) ranges from a few months to a maximum of 6 years.  Every available study bears this out.

Do you do ANY research at all before you spout these "facts" of yours? 

quote:

Taxes have never been a solution to anyone's problem. Right now gas is 1.094 per litre (4.8 litres to a gallon) I dont see people driving less - traffic is as bad as when gas .65 a litre (if not worse) ... 


I'm not sure where you are from, but that sound like UK measurements.  And how many people in the UK drive S.U.V.'s 40 miles to work alone each day?  Not many.  Why?  Because gas costs too much.  They mostly drive smaller cars.

By raising taxes and making gasoline more expensive, the consumer market is driven towards more sensible and economical cars, thus reducing their overall dependency on gas.  Taxes can and will drive changes in consumer preferences, for good or bad.

< Message edited by Tantalus42 -- 5/1/2006 12:22:14 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Solve the energy crisis - 5/1/2006 12:20:48 PM   
Tantalus42


Posts: 51
Joined: 1/27/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WeeIttyBitty

There is a long 1500 year cycle in the earths climate. There is no proof that human activity is doing anything to the climate.



You need to catch up.  Even most of the naysayers are shutting up these days and agreeing that humans ARE having an impact, and it's a pretty negative one.  And there's no reason NOT to do anything since most of what needs to be changed negatively impact us in so many other ways, such as health and quality of life, without even having to debate global warming.

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Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Solve the energy crisis - 5/1/2006 2:27:21 PM   
WeeIttyBitty


Posts: 115
Joined: 4/24/2006
Status: offline 		"Solar cells are primarily made of silicon wafers, "

The toxic waste produced by semiconductor production include cyanide, cadmium, and an assortment of solvents, heavy metals and waste waters. Not the easiest stuff to clean up after. Semiconductor production is far from a clean process.

"I'm not sure where you are from, but that sound like UK measurements.  And how many people in the UK drive S.U.V.'s 40 miles to work alone each day?  Not many.  Why?  Because gas costs too much.  They mostly drive smaller cars. "

No, Canada. Lots of SUVs, lots of big trucks. and long drives to work... My commute (before I moved) was 45 Km a day... (amost 30 miles) ...

I'll look for a revised productivity study on solar cells, Iam sure its improved in the last few years, but I dont think its all that special...

I still think my 6 point plan, (which nobody commented on) is still a good start to the energy 'crisis'

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RE: Solve the energy crisis - 5/1/2006 11:52:12 PM   
MsMacComb


Posts: 808
Joined: 3/30/2005
From: My Mothers womb.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tantalus42
By raising taxes and making gasoline more expensive, the consumer market is driven towards more sensible and economical cars, thus reducing their overall dependency on gas.  Taxes can and will drive changes in consumer preferences, for good or bad.
 

Some stats off tonights news stated that some cities using city buses is up about 18%. Depending on many variables (distance to work, type of car etc) many commuters could save up to $8000 annually. So yes, you are indeed correct.

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Solve the energy crisis - 5/2/2006 12:48:52 AM   
ArtCatDom


Posts: 478
Joined: 1/20/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying, but come on--when REPUBLICAN lawmakers ask for an audit of oil companies' tax records, I'll take that as a sign that there might be more than just supply and demand behind the recent price spikes.

You almost had me there--I was ALMOST feeling sorry for oil companies.  Then I regained my senses.


It hurts to admit it, but oil companies only have "record profits" when you ignore context. In raw number, they are quite large. However, this can be said of countless profitable companies in the States. It's not the raw numbers that matter (except for emotional fact twisting reporting), but rather the profit margins. The fact of the matter is that oil companies are making modest profits, especially compared to the energy sector as a whole.

Of course the Republicans are the ones calling for the "audits". They are the most vulnerable party on an issue that has raised widespread ire across the political spectrum in the voting populace. It doesn't happen too often, but once in a while those folks in D.C. actually notice and respond to the American public. Unfortunately, this is just another feel-good move to appease angry voters. Kind of like the lobbyist reform movement which has devolved into a couple useless and toothless bills.

*meow*

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Profile   Post #: 80
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