Israeli cabinet approves racist loyalty oath (Full Version)

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hertz -> Israeli cabinet approves racist loyalty oath (10/10/2010 4:11:25 PM)

According to 'Haaretz':

quote:

Israeli academic: Loyalty oath resembles racist laws of 1935

Over 100 people demonstrated against loyalty oath in Tel Aviv; warn 'Israel is becoming a fascist state.'

Israeli artists, writers and intellectuals held on Sunday a demonstration against the cabinet's approval of a controversial amendment to the citizenship bill, requiring non-Jews seeking citizenship to pledge allegiance to Israel as a Jewish and democratic state.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israeli-academic-loyalty-oath-resembles-racist-laws-of-1935-1.318275


In 'Al Jazeera':
quote:


Reporting from the West Bank city of Ramallah on the Palestinian reaction to the vote, Al Jazeera's Nour Odeh said: "Defining a state by the specific religious or ethnic background of the majority of its citizens is unprecedented".
Were the bill to be passed by the Knesset, the people immediately affected would be Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza who either want to marry a Palestinian-Israeli citizen or have already married and are waiting on their papers to be processed,
she said.
Earlier, Ahmad Tibi, an Arab member of the Knesset, told Al Jazeera that the bill was aimed at Palestinians - and not at Jewish newcomers to Israel since they already enter on Israel's Jewish Law of Return.
"Palestinians will have to say that this country is for Jews, and Palestinians are only guests. If you are saying you are democratic, you should treat citizens with equality," Tibi said.http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/10/2010101013028364300.html


The main problem is that the oath only applies to non-Jewish new citizens. This makes it a racist law (assuming one accepts the claim that the Jews are a specific race) by definition. This is a pretty disgusting entity, and only gives ammunition to the likes of myself and others who are not fans of apartheid and racism. By enacting legislation such as this, Israel only confirms our worst suspicions, that it is indeed a deeply racist state.

I was hoping to be able to refer to the use of a loyalty oath in the non-racist context of the US, but on checking my facts I discover that I don't actually know what the situation is in the US. Am I right in thinking the US supreme court ruled loyalty oaths to be unconstitutional?







AnimusRex -> RE: Israeli cabinet approves racist loyalty oath (10/10/2010 4:31:31 PM)

Being neither Jewish nor Israeli, and not interested in emigrating there, i don't really have much of a dog in this fight.
But it does point out for me the uncomfortable dilemma facing Israel- Is it a Jewish state, or a democratic one?

In other words, in the near future ethnic Arabs and palestinians will outnumber ethnic Sephardim and immigrant Jews; so at some point Jewish identity will have to part ways with being Israeli, or Israel will have to make all non-Jews second class citizens.

Actions like this loyalty oath are just rear guard actions trying to stave off the inevitable, by asserting the primacy of Jewish identy over any other, and as such starts to undermine the notion of Israel being a free and representative democracy.



DomKen -> RE: Israeli cabinet approves racist loyalty oath (10/10/2010 5:01:24 PM)

Actually it applies to all new citizens. The amendment to the citizenship law simply adds "Jewish and Democratic state." to the end of the Israeli pledge of allegiance.



DarkSteven -> RE: Israeli cabinet approves racist loyalty oath (10/10/2010 5:38:40 PM)

Race and religion are two different things.

That said, it requires the swearing of loyalty to the state of Israel.  Why not make it mandatory for ALL?

The folks opposing this are nuts. They're trying to make the case that the new clause is the first step toward oppression of non-Jews similar to the Holocaust.



AnimusRex -> RE: Israeli cabinet approves racist loyalty oath (10/10/2010 5:52:54 PM)

Well, pledging allegience to Israel as a democratic state would be one thing; pledging allegiance to the state as being Jewish is the rub; are non-Jews welcome to be first class citizens?

Don't get me wrong, Israel is still much more democratic and secular than any of its neighbors- but as the saying goes, thats like being the winner of the tallest midget contest.

As I mentioned in my first post, at some point they are going to have to confront the fact that within our lifetimes Jews will be a minority within Israel; will it still be a "Jewish" state?

Defining a state by either ethnicity or religion is a tricky and dangerous business; this is why I am so opposed to these idiots who are always trying to get Congress to proclaim America to be a "Christian" nation.



Anaxagoras -> RE: Israeli cabinet approves racist loyalty oath (10/10/2010 6:03:06 PM)

The law will be applicable to all citizens. This was very clear in the way it was represented on the mainstream media so I assume some pro-Palestinians are seeking to misrepresent it. Bibi Netanyahu stated that it was to reinforce their own stance before they sought such similar recognition from others. In fact this new idea may have been proposed to placate the more right-wing elements in his coalition before he tries to extend the settlement freeze. Thus it may be part of an effort towards a peace deal.

Interesting that Hertz has come around to the fact that the Jews are actually a race as well as a religion since he denied that on the now deleted Nuclear Iran thread. They are however not a distinctive race in the singular sense since there are more overtly Arab Jews and even black Jews. Thus the separation in Israel is not on racial grounds but on religious and cultural grounds. In fact it can be hard to tell a Jew from a Palestinian except for dress and language. It isn’t remotely a race based issue unlike Apartheid era South Africa. Thus it isn’t hugely different to the other cultural identifiers in other countries. In fact other nations in the Middle-East identify constitutionally as both Arab (race) and Islamic (religion).



Owner59 -> RE: Israeli cabinet approves racist loyalty oath (10/10/2010 6:46:05 PM)

If they are going to compel folks to make the pledge under pain of imprisonment or fine this would be another story.


Hmmmm who recently attempted to force Americans to say the pledge of allegiance under similar penalties?



Oh right,republicans tried to do that.


The OP title is FOS.



hertz -> RE: Israeli cabinet approves racist loyalty oath (10/11/2010 2:47:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Actually it applies to all new citizens. The amendment to the citizenship law simply adds "Jewish and Democratic state." to the end of the Israeli pledge of allegiance.


Not according to every news source I have seen.

quote:

A divided Cabinet yesterday approved a highly controversial measure that, for the first time in Israel's 62-year history, requires new non-Jewish citizens to pledge loyalty to it as a "Jewish and democratic state". The Independent


quote:

Cabinet ministers on Sunday approved by a majority vote a controversial amendment which would require every non-Jew wishing to become a citizen of Israel to pledge loyalty. Haaretz


quote:

Proposals to introduce a law compelling non-Jews seeking Israeli citizenship to swear allegiance to Israel as a ''Jewish and democratic state'' have generated a lively debate in Israeli papers. BBC


quote:

The proposed law would require those seeking to become Israeli citizens under the Citizenship Law to sign an oath pledging loyalty to “the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state.” The law will not impact foreign citizens who apply for Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return, which grants citizenship to Jews and their descendents.israelnationalnews


It seems pretty clear: This is legislation specifically targeted at non-Jews.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

If they are going to compel folks to make the pledge under pain of imprisonment or fine this would be another story.


Have you any idea what the penalty for failure to comply might be?

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

Defining a state by either ethnicity or religion is a tricky and dangerous business


It was certainly tricky and dangerous for the black citizens of apartheid era South Africa.

That said, it requires the swearing of loyalty to the state of Israel.  Why not make it mandatory for ALL?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

The folks opposing this are nuts. They're trying to make the case that the new clause is the first step toward oppression of non-Jews similar to the Holocaust.


That might be going a bit far. But certainly I would make the case that it is a major step towards enshrining the inherent racism of the Israeli state into law, for reasons which are far from honourable or reasonable. As you ask elsewhere in your comment, if such a loyalty oath is necessary, surely it should apply to all?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

The OP title is FOS.


It's accurate, according to the media. It's legislation based on race, it involves a loyalty oath, it's been approved by the cabinet, and it's in Israel. What's FOS about that? Or is that what FOS means now?





shivermetimbers -> RE: Israeli cabinet approves racist loyalty oath (10/11/2010 3:26:56 AM)

I may be punchy from being up late, but this sounds quite similar to Mexico when they opened up Texas for settlers.  You had to swear allegiance to Mexico as a citizen, denounce all other citizenship, and if you weren't already one, you had to convert to Catholicism. Though Texas seceding from Mexico was political and not religious, in the end, it didn't work too well for Mexico.




hertz -> RE: Israeli cabinet approves racist loyalty oath (10/11/2010 5:19:58 AM)

Interesting article here, making the point that the loyalty oath is effectively about loyalty to a racist ideology rather than simply to the state of Israel alone.

quote:

...the Israeli cabinet approved a measure requiring candidates for Israeli citizenship to pledge loyalty to "the state of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state". The naturalisation oath would not apply to Jews, who are granted automatic citizenship under the law of return, so it is, by definition, discriminatory. The existing text binds individuals to declare their loyalty to the state of Israel. The new version requires future citizens to declare their loyalty not just to a state but an ideology, one specifically designed to exclude one fifth of its citizens who see themselves as Palestinian.
Palestinian Israeli leaders have described this proposal as racist. Palestinian Israeli citizens do not have to take this oath, but their partners seeking naturalisation do. Neither could agree with Israel's characterisation of itself as a Jewish state. It could be a state of Jews and all its citizens, but never a Jewish state. Nor is this the only bill around. There are 20 others in the slipstream that have a similar effect: there is a loyalty law for Knesset members and for film crews; there are bills that make it a criminal offence to deny the existence of Israel; that penalise the mourning of Nakba Day; that force any group financed by a foreign nation to report each contribution; and a bill to deny ethnic minorities' access to Jewish settlements. The authors of these proposals not only intend to create a state ideology but to police it.http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/oct/11/israel-loyalty-oath-discriminatory



DomKen -> RE: Israeli cabinet approves racist loyalty oath (10/11/2010 7:12:29 AM)

Such careful sourcing to make it appear racist. Here are some more sources that say it applies to all new citizens.

http://abna.ir/data.asp?lang=3&id=208343
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=190635

I do wonder how many non jews become Israeli citizens every year.



hertz -> RE: Israeli cabinet approves racist loyalty oath (10/11/2010 7:29:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Such careful sourcing to make it appear racist. Here are some more sources that say it applies to all new citizens.

http://abna.ir/data.asp?lang=3&id=208343
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=190635



You are wrong. Jews becoming Israeli citizens under the similarly racist 'right to return' laws are excluded. But you knew that, didn't you?

Straight question: Are Jews requesting Israeli citizenship under the racist right to return laws required to make this oath?

quote:

I do wonder how many non jews become Israeli citizens every year.


Racism is racism, regardless of numbers.







Anaxagoras -> RE: Israeli cabinet approves racist loyalty oath (10/11/2010 9:54:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Such careful sourcing to make it appear racist. Here are some more sources that say it applies to all new citizens.

http://abna.ir/data.asp?lang=3&id=208343
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=190635



You are wrong. Jews becoming Israeli citizens under the similarly racist 'right to return' laws are excluded. But you knew that, didn't you?

Straight question: Are Jews requesting Israeli citizenship under the racist right to return laws required to make this oath?

quote:

I do wonder how many non jews become Israeli citizens every year.


Racism is racism, regardless of numbers.



Clearly there would be no punishment for not taking the oath. It would be part of becoming a citizen obviously, thus no imprisonment or fine. However, I imagine it would cast one’s case to become a citizen in doubt. It is most peculiar to bring things like punishment up in this case and of course it smears regardless of having any truth to it. This is another thread with propagandistic overtones about Israel. It is unclear if the oath will apply to both Jews and non-Jews partly since the legislation is just a proposal and there are conflicting news reports on this point. Such laws have to go through a lengthy process and amendments before being established. Jews have an automatic right to citizenship but they can’t just walk into Israel as Hertz appears to suggest. They must still apply for and transfer citizenship and so it is quite possible they will also have to take oaths such as that proposed. In fact it would be a good idea for it to extend to all citizens for many Jews are very harsh critics of Israel often for dubious reasons. I am referring to people like Chomsky who was involved with neo-Nazi’s at one stage.

The point of an oath is a basic one that extreme pro-Palestinians refuse to accept for it is incompatible with a popular agenda to blacken Israel's rep. The surrounding Arab states are extremely hostile to the State. They have mounted numerous wars to extinguish it completely. It wasn’t so much because there is a state they do not like called Israel but rather because it is a manifestly Jewish state. In other words the oath asks new citizens to respect the primary character of the State. It does not disrespect Palestinians at all because it does not relate to the contested territories. As is the case it is not a racist principle because Judaism is a religion and a culture principally. It does have distinctive race markers but they are not singular since there are in fact more Jews of Arab extraction living in Israel than whiter European Jews. Hertz is being opportunistic in trying to make it a race issue and label Israel an Apartheid state, as he denied Judaism even related to race in the Nuclear Iran thread.

Zionism is repeatedly called a racist ideology but was borne out of extreme oppression in the West and was part of an effort for Jews to have some form of self-determination after being subject to the tyrannies of others, including Islamic Arabs. Thus it is entirely proper to identify Israel as a principally Jewish state. Minority interests are protected with anti-discrimination laws. The laws respect Arabic which is a key feature of Palestinian culture. Arabic is the official state language along with Hebrew: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Israel and is featured on state signs etc. all over Israel. I think it should be understood as a nationalistic self-determining rights movement for people of a given religion and culture who were brutalised throughout that era. A somewhat similar phenomenon occurred in India/Pakistan, Serbia/Kosovo etc. with partition and mass migration. If pro-Palestinians seek peace they should be far more concerned about the actual banning of Jews from entering surrounding Arab countries like Jordan where there should be peace, and of the very harsh treatment of Palestinian Christians by the PA etc. In Bethlehem Palestinian Christians have been almost completely pushed out by Islamicisation whilst in Israel this population is bigger than ever before. Instead in this debate there is one-sided condemnation for only one side can be bad when you want to demonise it.



hertz -> RE: Israeli cabinet approves racist loyalty oath (10/19/2010 2:37:32 PM)

Turns out the Israeli loyalty oath really was, as the news reports suggested, applicable to non-Jews only, and therefore racist.

But Netanyahu has apparently thought better of that aspect of the bill and ordered a redrafting.

quote:

A proposed loyalty oath to Israel as a "Jewish and democratic state" should apply to all new citizens, not just to non-Jews, the Israeli prime minister has said after protests that the original plan for an oath was racist.

Binyamin Netanyahu ordered a redrafting of an amendment to the citizenship act. The earlier proposal applied only to non-Jews applying for citizenship – in effect a tiny number of Palestinians marrying Israeli-Arabs, and foreign workers.

The plan was originally put forward by the hard-right Yisrael Beitenu party, led by the foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman. Liberal Israelis, Israeli-Arabs and Palestinians denounced it as racist, and the proposal split the cabinet, with all Labour party members opposing it.

The redrafting will have little impact: Jews are automatically entitled to Israeli citizenship under the country's law of return, and few would demur at pledging loyalty to Israel as a Jewish state. The move does not address the objections of Palestinians.

...Jamal Zahalka, chairman of Balad, a party representing Israeli-Arabs, said the new proposal "remains racist because it demands Palestinians debase themselves by pledging allegiance to the Jewish state ... If another country ever forced Jews to pledge allegiance to Christian or Muslim ideology, they would be accused of being antisemitic.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oct/19/israeli-citizens-loyalty-oath-netanyahu





popeye1250 -> RE: Israeli cabinet approves racist loyalty oath (10/19/2010 2:42:17 PM)

It's their country they can do what they want.



hertz -> RE: Israeli cabinet approves racist loyalty oath (10/19/2010 2:45:27 PM)

Of course they can. If they want to be racists, that's entirely up to them. And those of us who have no time for Apartheid don't have to buy their racist produce - that's how it works, isn't it? 



popeye1250 -> RE: Israeli cabinet approves racist loyalty oath (10/19/2010 4:23:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

Of course they can. If they want to be racists, that's entirely up to them. And those of us who have no time for Apartheid don't have to buy their racist produce - that's how it works, isn't it? 


And which "race" are they being "racist" to?



tazzygirl -> RE: Israeli cabinet approves racist loyalty oath (10/19/2010 5:11:27 PM)

Funny, i dont recall a loyalty oath being given when i was born.... most US citizens dont have to take a loyalty oath... unless you work for the government... or the state of California which has its own loyalty oath for some workers.

quote:

Israel
Avigdor Lieberman proposed that Israel's citizens should sign a loyalty oath or lose their right to vote. In his The Jewish Week article, Lieberman tried to explain his party's "no loyalty – no citizenship" campaign by writing: "During Operation Cast Lead in Gaza, I was appalled by the calls for the destruction of the State of Israel and for renewed suicide bombings that some Israeli Arab leaders called for at pro-Hamas rallies. Although 'responsible citizenship' had always been part of our platform, I realized that this was a burning issue that had to take top priority."[15] He explained his "responsible citizenship" platform and compared his position to the express policy of nations around the world, saying: "In the U.S., those requesting a Green Card must take an oath that they will fulfill the rights and duties of citizenship."[16]

On 10 October 2010 the Israeli cabinet approved a loyalty oath bill requiring all future non-Jews applying for an Israeli citizenship to swear loyalty to Israel as a Jewish and democratic state.[17] However, on October 18, current prime minister Netanyahu ordered Justice minister Ya'akov Ne'eman to extend Cabinet-level debate on the bill in order to add amendments which make the loyalty oath universal to both Jewish and non-Jewish citizens of the state, including Jewish immigrants who seek citizenship.[18]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalty_oath



Anaxagoras -> RE: Israeli cabinet approves racist loyalty oath (10/19/2010 5:14:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

Of course they can. If they want to be racists, that's entirely up to them. And those of us who have no time for Apartheid don't have to buy their racist produce - that's how it works, isn't it? 


It is extraordinary how pro-Palestinians like Hertz use any opportunistic position to demonise Israel while paying absolutely no mind to the large Islamic dictatorships or minimally democratic states surrounding the tiny state of Israel, some of which explicitly exclude Jews from entry, let alone citizenship. How is it that these people only consider East Jerusalem, Judea etc. "occupied" if a principally Jewish state rules the territory when the Jordanians previously killed or expelled Jews from the same territory they occupied without any legal or moral claim to it? How is it that old Jewish settlements that predate the establishment of Israel are an impediment to peace and apparently “illegal” under international law (the oft quoted Fourth Geneva Convention that related to Nazi State transfer of populations)? How is it that the Palestinians can have a new state with absolutely no Jewish population while it's “apartheid” for Israel to reinforce its Jewishness with an oath taken by prospective citizens?



Arpig -> RE: Israeli cabinet approves racist loyalty oath (10/19/2010 5:17:15 PM)

quote:

that it is indeed a deeply racist state.
No shit Sherlock, always has been...always will be, even if the Palestinians get there way



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