RE: Would You Serve a Dom With Submissive Tendancies? (Full Version)

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Aynne88 -> RE: Would You Serve a Dom With Submissive Tendancies? (10/17/2010 6:03:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968
I see it completely different. He comes home from work and is extremely stressed...
While it's certainly true that your relationship and mine are vastly different, it's worth pointing out that the situations I'm referring to are not the "come home from work stressed" situations. At least in my life, I've been handed (or more normally -- bitten off) much larger challenges than that and some of those have been more than I was capable of handling. Surely I cannot be the only living dominant personality that's run into a situation somewhere in his life that rendered him more or less completely dysfunctional.... death of a spouse for instance... breakup of a long-term relationship... that sort of thing.


Shore and I have both buried babies. Both buried both of our parents. Both dealt with divorce.
That kind of life stress hasn't made him suddenly want to hand over control of his life, even temporarily.
I'm not judging you. I'm just pointing out that while you may deal with certain things one way, others deal with it a completely different way.
I would not be compatible with someone that dealt with it your way.
The original OP asked if I would be in a relationship with someone who had sub tendencies. My answer remains no.
Even in all kinds of stress levels of life, if he chose to deal with those stresses in what I define as a sub manner, then no. I wouldn't be in a relationship with him. And this is coming from someone who is head over heels in love with this man.
It isn't in his dna to give up control. That also doesn't mean that he makes perfect decisions at all times. He makes the best decisions that he can at all times.
I couldn't ask for anything more.

edited to add...I have discovered that I am not compatible with someone that has any desire to be dominated or to switch, even if it's for just small periods of time. That's why I work so well with Shore. He made it clear to me from day one that he needed absolute complete control of our relationship.
The fact that he does it all with love, lust, charm, humor, personality, intelligence and common sense (plus he's damn good looking too) makes it all the better for me.



I didn't read this far before I made my post, but wow Aileen, yep on that, and you rock for sharing it. He and I have both had some painful issues, he has lost two wives to cancer, his only child to suicide, lost both of his parents, and I have been divorced and lost a child a long time ago to a miscarriage. I need a man that is my rock, my strength, and the one in control. He sometimes depends on me to be his rock too, but in the day to day of our life, I need a very clear cut dynamic, and that is one where he is the one in charge, and if he wanted me to ever switch those roles even for "play" I know I would instantly feel differently towards him.

He is strong, dominant, alpha, yet also loving and protective. I am his soft place to fall, the woman that brings him his food, makes his coffee, rubs his back, waits on him and builds him up when he needs it. Our roles are so clearly defined that it works beautifully. I live to make him happy, corny as that sounds, and after spending 22 years with a man that made me feel like his mother it's so frigging amazing to feel like the one that is protected and yes controlled. He couldn't give up this dynamic because he never had it with his other wives and now that he knows what it is like to be able to the man he wants to be, he is so fulfilled and happy and he also strives to make me feel like a treasured and loved woman, not his mother.

If he exhibited submissive tendencies I would feel like something was wrong with what we have now and it just wouldn't be something that I could deal with. I want what I have and I am sure that he does as well. I think a Dominant with submissive tendencies is not a Dom, but a switch, which is fine, but not what a woman wants that needs a Dominant partner.



tewy01 -> RE: Would You Serve a Dom With Submissive Tendancies? (10/17/2010 6:28:42 PM)

Even if he was an Alpha Male Aynne?



Aynne88 -> RE: Would You Serve a Dom With Submissive Tendancies? (10/17/2010 6:43:53 PM)


Yes I think so I am one of those women that is quite dominant myself with everyone but him so I do think that I would have a hard time if he suddenly exhibited submissive traits only because I know how I can be and I think that I might actually think differently of him and perhaps lose a bit of what I need to feel from him, that he is 100% dominant all the time. I know that I can very easily manipulate people that I percieve to be weaker than me, not an admirable trait I know, and I don't ever want to think that way about him, does that make any sense? Besides, what kind of Alpha could he be while exhibiting submissive traits?



WolfyMontgomery -> RE: Would You Serve a Dom With Submissive Tendancies? (10/17/2010 6:46:49 PM)

The one thing that I always get somewhat concerned/confused about hearing is the very broad term "Submissive Tendencies".

What does "Submissive Tendencies" mean to the people here when they say that they couldn't submit to him? Are they inferring to the fact that it tends to be a somewhat submissive act to enjoy receiving pain rather than just giving it? Or are they inferring to the fact that he likes to give over authority to another person or want to give authority at times TO their sub?

After all, if you look at the two examples, they are vastly different and could mean very different things.

The Dom who likes pain might like to get a crop to their ass every once in a while, but what if they are always in control of the situation and are in command and are the ones commanding you to strike them? Or commanding someone else to strike, but are still in command and the one on "top"? Would you consider this behavior "switching" and being "submissive" or just "telling you to give them pain"?

The Dom who likes to submit his control emotionally and/or mentally and actually become a bottom or a submissive I can see as being a switch, because it is relinquishing control - which is at least to me the main part that makes someone Dominant. Their authority and their refusal to let that authority go to someone else.

I use quotation marks because I tend to not like to talk in label terms... just like the label "submissive tendencies" there are so many different levels to it that I find it hard for someone to be able to give a positive Yes or No answer from that one tiny phrase that could encompass SOOOO many different aspects that may or may not apply to the situation.

It also depends on whether or not you mean in regards to him being a "submissive" with you or being one to someone else while ALWAYS requiring your submission. Granted this only applies to people that are either in poly relationships or in monogamous relationships where the definition is that they're still allowed to play, but this also is another aspect to look at. What if he always demanded constant submission from you but in play with others would sometimes be submissive?

It's all shades of gray, not black and white. So why treat it as such?



tewy01 -> RE: Would You Serve a Dom With Submissive Tendancies? (10/17/2010 7:07:49 PM)

Wolfy ans Aynne,if your man asked you to use a strap-on and fuck him would you refuse? Would you be turned on or off from his request?



daddysprop247 -> RE: Would You Serve a Dom With Submissive Tendancies? (10/17/2010 8:09:53 PM)

i have to agree strongly with the sentiments expressed by Aynne, Aileen and angel here. i could not even conceive of my Master NOT being Dominant, not needing to maintain authority and control...EVER. as angel (i believe it was angel, my apologies if that is a mistake) stated, it is the tendency of an alpha male to pull in the reins even tighter in times of great stress and mental exhaustion. i would be utterly and completely lost (not to mention devastated) if my Master ever displayed any submissive tendency of any sort. He is just NOT that man, and i am in love with and eternally bonded to the strong, alpha Dominant man he is.



Aynne88 -> RE: Would You Serve a Dom With Submissive Tendancies? (10/17/2010 8:14:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tewy01

Wolfy ans Aynne,if your man asked you to use a strap-on and fuck him would you refuse? Would you be turned on or off from his request?


Yes I would totally refuse and be hugely turned off. Not gonna happen.



Aynne88 -> RE: Would You Serve a Dom With Submissive Tendancies? (10/17/2010 8:15:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

i have to agree strongly with the sentiments expressed by Aynne, Aileen and angel here. i could not even conceive of my Master NOT being Dominant, not needing to maintain authority and control...EVER. as angel (i believe it was angel, my apologies if that is a mistake) stated, it is the tendency of an alpha male to pull in the reins even tighter in times of great stress and mental exhaustion. i would be utterly and completely lost (not to mention devastated) if my Master ever displayed any submissive tendency of any sort. He is just NOT that man, and i am in love with and eternally bonded to the strong, alpha Dominant man he is.



Daddy's Prop, I adore you sweetheart! hugs!



takemeforyourown -> RE: Would You Serve a Dom With Submissive Tendancies? (10/17/2010 8:27:21 PM)

No. He has to be all-Dom or I may as well go Vanilla.



daddysprop247 -> RE: Would You Serve a Dom With Submissive Tendancies? (10/17/2010 8:28:25 PM)

Aynne, bigs *hugs* right back at you! [:)]

and serious props to you for even answering that last question, lmbo!![:D]



WolfyMontgomery -> RE: Would You Serve a Dom With Submissive Tendancies? (10/17/2010 9:53:29 PM)

quote:

Wolfy ans Aynne,if your man asked you to use a strap-on and fuck him would you refuse? Would you be turned on or off from his request?


I would refuse, just because I don't find guys' asses to be fuckable. If he ordered me to, I *might* but would honestly be turned off by it, but at least he'd still be maintaining control (he's the one giving the order to do it after all, and I've sort of tossed my limits so I can't really say no). If he really wanted his ass violated he can go look elsewhere though, it's the reason why we have our monogamous-but-with-play relationship.

quote:

i would be utterly and completely lost (not to mention devastated) if my Master ever displayed any submissive tendency of any sort.


But daddysprop, isn't it considered a submissive tendency to be masochistic? What if your Master wanted you to claw his back during sex - would you consider that being submissive for wanting pain, or being Dominant for still being in control and making you hurt him?

I'm not saying that switches are the only way to go, seriously. I just want to know where the line is drawn when one is considered a "Dom" and when one is considered a "switch". Is it purely about the authority and control? Or is it about liking something such as pain which is more commonly liked by submissives? When you mention "submissive traits" do you mean all of the above or just the power and control aspects of submission?

For example:

Master and I have this one scene that I like to call "Hungry Vampire". Where I'm the hungry vampire and I get to try my damndest to get at his neck and bite him, and can use almost any tricks up my sleeve to get there from clawing, growling, biting other parts of him, trying to restrain him, if toys are lying about I'm allowed to try and use them, etc. Does this make me a sub with "Dominant" tendencies because in this one scene, I'm *supposed* to try to top him? Or does it give him "submissive" tendencies because he wants me to try and force him? Or because he's still the one in control (both mentally and just the fact that he's that much stronger than me) that I can't win until he lets me win and won't win if he says stop, that he is "All Dom"?



hematitan -> RE: Would You Serve a Dom With Submissive Tendancies? (10/17/2010 10:24:39 PM)

I lean towards bedroom submission and bottoming, and having a partner who's always dominant isn't important to me, so I can't imagine it being a deal breaker. At least not right now. However, being with someone who wanted me to top them could be a conflict. I'm not sure if I'd be comfortable with that or if I'd be able to do a very good job. But I'd be open to having a partner who sometimes bottomed for/submitted to other people.



TheRaptorJesus -> RE: Would You Serve a Dom With Submissive Tendancies? (10/18/2010 12:42:37 AM)

I love the myriad of subs that would seem to only settle for their vision of the alpha-male.

If Zarathustra had trouble finding the ubermensch, I think you ladies will probably (or already) have to settle for someone who lets go of the reigns once in a while. There's only so much alpha to spread around this wide world.

The will to power is never that great and if it is, it's the result of some deep-seated issues rather than any dominant tendencies. 



daddysprop247 -> RE: Would You Serve a Dom With Submissive Tendancies? (10/18/2010 10:04:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WolfyMontgomery



But daddysprop, isn't it considered a submissive tendency to be masochistic? What if your Master wanted you to claw his back during sex - would you consider that being submissive for wanting pain, or being Dominant for still being in control and making you hurt him?




first, no i don't consider masochism to be a submissive trait. masochism is very much its own thing, and actually from various folks i've spoken with and observed over the years, many masochists seem to have dominant tendencies. of course, this is different from being "a" Dominant. i do not feel that "a" Dominant could be masochistic, but that is because i likely define Dominant a bit more strictly than most. i view it as an overall character and personality trait, something which affects all aspects of one's life and interactions with others.

if my Master wanted me to claw his back during sex...well first i would wonder how big the tumor was and how could we get him to the nearest hospital...playing along with the hypothetical scenario, i would not view him as submissive, but i also certainly would not view him as Dominant. simply because someone is giving orders and someone else is following them, does not make the former dominant and the latter submissive. "switch" would not come to mind either. but the labels would be irrelevant at that point...the important thing would be, he would not be the man i know and loved.

as Dominant and submissive people, i believe that due to our very natures there are certain things we simply are unable to do...(or at least not without immense struggle)...our natures just won't allow it. this includes those moments when it is actually in our own best interest to act in opposition to our nature. so take the context of giving or receiving pain: no matter how submissive i may be, i am just incapable of intentionally inflicting pain on another person. the only way i could bring myself to do so would be if it was a matter of preserving their health or life...i.e. cutting off a blackened finger when lost and away from all help up on K2. outside of such circumstances? there is just no way...my nature just won't allow me to do it.

likewise, my Master's nature is such that he is just not going to willingly tolerate pain inflicted by another. His natural response to such pain is to become very, very angry and very violent. yeah, um, not good. lol

as for the vampire game you described, you know your Master best. maybe he wants pain, but then maybe he just wants a bit of a struggle. either way, obviously it works for the two of you and that's what matters.




leadership527 -> RE: Would You Serve a Dom With Submissive Tendancies? (10/18/2010 11:34:26 AM)

Hi Daddysprop *waves*

As you already know, there are a lot of similarities and also some differences between our two relationships. I often find it interesting how similar they are in some ways and yet how they diverge in others.

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247
first, no i don't consider masochism to be a submissive trait. masochism is very much its own thing
Yup.

quote:

if my Master wanted me to claw his back during sex... but the labels would be irrelevant at that point...the important thing would be, he would not be the man i know and loved.
Predictably, the labels are always irrelevant for us. The categories that are in our heads are, of course, terribly relevant. For Carol though, it would not occur to her to think of such an act in this context at all. I just asked Carol, So why DO you assess me as dominant?" and these were the three things she said (so clearly this is her measuring stick).

  • Because I have never known you to be intimidated (This, by the way, is not true. She's never known me to be intimidated and let that stop me. I've been in plenty of intimidating situations)
  • Because I have never seen you in a situation you didn't feel you could command if you chose to (correct).
  • If you were on the hijacked airplane, you'd have been one of the guys with the butter knife (again, correct).

So for her, at least, she is entirely keying off of her perceptions of my mental state. Note that those perceptions may well be incorrect. But as long as she thinks they are right, then she will assess me as dominant. Obviously, these three things have nothing to do with the scenarios I've described in this thread hence why those scenarios don't cause a problem for us.

quote:

as Dominant and submissive people, i believe that due to our very natures there are certain things we simply are unable to do...(or at least not without immense struggle)...our natures just won't allow it. this includes those moments when it is actually in our own best interest to act in opposition to our nature
I see this very differently. I view humans as complex creatures and lots of base drives/motives. We also have an intellect which can, to some degree, offset our default behaviors. I'm very much a believer in flexibility. Actually, I'm a believer in SUCCESS and whatever it is that makes that happen. *chuckles* As a dominant personality, I like to get my way which means succeeding.

What is true is that I can never, really, let go of my dominance. This was, in fact, demonstrated exactly during one of these moments recently when Carol was "running the show". The phone rang. It was a problem. Carol and I were both drunk on champagne. But it was me who mustered himself, dealt with the phone call, sorted out the problem, and in general "handled things". I can delegate to Carol easily. But I cannot really abdicate my role even if I wanted to. God knows I did want to when that phone rang and I saw the message but that wasn't even really a thought. My natural instincts were in play even as the "Oh hell" thought was happening.

The whole pain thing is just a miss for me in every way. I don't spend a lot of my time and attention on pain. When I get hurt, I generally do a quick body inventory to make sure medical attention isn't required then ignore it. If Carol grooved on spanking me, I'd just ignore it. I think it's pretty obvious that if my reaction to pain were similar to your master's then Carol wouldn't be spanking me *chuckles*... not that she does right now, but I'm helping her explore that side of her so who knows?

So all in all, I think what we have here is a question of what, exactly, a given submissive is keying off of when he or she assesses someone else as "dominant". I've got at least 4 radically different definitions of that in my head from reading here and elsewhere. Most of those definitions are mutually contradictory. The same might be said of what it means to be "submissive".



DesFIP -> RE: Would You Serve a Dom With Submissive Tendancies? (10/18/2010 12:57:22 PM)

I understand that there is a vast difference between a man wanting to receive sensation play and one who wants to be controlled. I have no problem with dominants who need sensation play, I don't think less of them. However I'm not capable of topping them nor of seeing them being topped without suffering distress and confusion. I'm not compatible with them.

As far as a man who gets anxious when forced to make major decisions, one who wants to turn it over to someone else, someone who is like me, submissive? Of course I'm not compatible with one. We would both resent each other for not being the strong partner we needed. I've been in a marriage with someone like that. When tough times came, I resented that he wasn't the person I needed him to be. I lost respect for him when he couldn't make the hard decision, when he couldn't do what was right no matter the personal cost. It ended with bitterness and sadness on both sides. I'm not willing to be with someone like that again. First, I can't be the person he needs and that hurts me, to know I'm not good enough, and secondly because I don't like being a person who resents her partner. So now I won't be with someone who isn't strong enough, isn't dominant enough, isn't a perfect match.

OP what you aren't doing is accepting us for who you are. You want a partner who is submissive. You have every right to want that. At the same time we have every right to our preferences. And that includes a person who isn't mostly dominant but totally dominant. Just like we have preferences in hair color and height. I don't object to men who are red haired, but I don't find that a sexual turn on. And I have every right to decide for myself what works for me. Just like you do. Arguing that we shouldn't feel this way is senseless. It isn't about should, it is about what is.

There is no should to the human heart.



Aynne88 -> RE: Would You Serve a Dom With Submissive Tendancies? (10/19/2010 9:00:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheRaptorJesus

I love the myriad of subs that would seem to only settle for their vision of the alpha-male.

If Zarathustra had trouble finding the ubermensch, I think you ladies will probably (or already) have to settle for someone who lets go of the reigns once in a while. There's only so much alpha to spread around this wide world.

The will to power is never that great and if it is, it's the result of some deep-seated issues rather than any dominant tendencies. 




Raptor you are missing my point. I don't mind him letting go of the reigns when he needs to. I have been through and held him while he cried when his mother died and comforted him through health crisises as well. He was still a Dominant male though, even in those circumstances. When I think of submissive tendencies, I think of a man that doesn't command a presence when he enters a room, or holds himself with comfidence in every situation, and makes me want to submit to him. Showing human emotion and being vulnerable in times of great emotional distress aren't "submissive tendencies" they are humon ones.

I will agree with you on one thing though, I will only settle for my version of an alpha male, and that is the man that is powerful, successful, does't ever back down, and also doesn't want me to perform what I consider to be submissive "sensation" play. I find nothing less appealing than that so oft repeated question "If your man wanted you to fuck him in the as with a strap on, would you"? It's only "sensation play". Uh yeah. No it isn't. Not for me anyway. No more than if I suddenly decided I wanted to clamp his nipples and ride him like a pony while I flogged his ass. If this is all just sensation play than aren't we all just fetishists rather than having defined roles? When he makes me crawl to him, or hurts me, or slaps me, I feel, become, change, into this quivering mass of submission. It is a mental mind fuck that I can't even explain and so to do to him what he does to me, I am always going to wonder does he feel those same feelings, and that changes the whole dynamic. Thankfully, it isn't every going to happen. I don't think it makes me judgmental or doing the whole ykinmk thing, it just means that I see it is more than just physical sensationsm it takes me places in my head that are amazing. I am pretty sure that when he is controlling and physically hurting me, he feels the same sense of power and maybe even emotionally as intense as I do, and I am not about to screw around with changing those roles and/or feelings.



DesFIP -> RE: Would You Serve a Dom With Submissive Tendancies? (10/19/2010 11:56:28 AM)

Additional thought, when Jeff described suffering in a life altering situation, I didn't assume that meant he suddenly became submissive. To me that translates to situational depression which is a disease. I've seen The Man suffering from depression, he was still dominant, but he was sick. So he got help for it. He has now come down with diabetes, he's got a disease but again it doesn't magically take away his dominance. It does mean that he needs to be reminded to take his medicine, to be given a "do you really want that" when he's eying a Hershey Almond bar at the checkout line. He's still dominant, just with a chronic disease.



leadership527 -> RE: Would You Serve a Dom With Submissive Tendancies? (10/20/2010 12:05:59 PM)

I think that was my point Des. YOU didn't read it as me suddenly becoming submissive. Neither did Carol. Both of you read it as a sickness. In Carol's case, she was the best medicine for that particular kind of sickness and became my treatment program (interestingly, at my command). But just as clearly, other people DO read it that way. For such a person, I'd be a bad fit.

This is exactly why I thought it was important to ask Carol what she was keying off of. I think a lot of doms and subs both would do well to answer that question clearly. I also think it'd help a lot if we didn't just have one word for "dominance" or "submission". But that's what we're saddled with so frank communication like this thread is about all that is left.



WolfyMontgomery -> RE: Would You Serve a Dom With Submissive Tendancies? (10/20/2010 12:58:09 PM)

quote:

I also think it'd help a lot if we didn't just have one word for "dominance" or "submission". But that's what we're saddled with so frank communication like this thread is about all that is left.


I couldn't agree with you more, Leadership. It's why I dislike labels so much - they leave SOOOO MUUCH unexplained about the internal workings OF the person. People are much more intricate than a single word could ever, EVER fully explain.

They might work for like... a first glance, a one-time meeting where the people aren't going to get to know each other beyond that. But for a relationship to really work, one can't just know that "He's a DOM" and be done with it. It'll never work.



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