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RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage - 10/18/2010 6:11:02 AM

DarkSteven

Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HypnoPants

what?! no bacon?! blasphemy!

I'm Jewish.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I don't use punishment in this way. To Me, if there's an actual punishment involved, there is no confusing the matter by "rewarding" My submissive for enduring the punishment. If we're in a situation that has gotten so bad that a punishment is coming into it, that means there is something seriously wrong in the dynamic. It's not a game that I'm playing to make him emotionally distraught so he'll feel great later. I wouldn't do that anymore than I'd tell My husband that I want a divorce so I can show him how much I love him. The way that I use punishment is as a consequence or to correct behavior. The idea is to implement it so the infraction isn't repeated.

Thanks, LadyPact. The whole thing felt wrong to me, but I couldn't verbalize it.

A punishment is there to correct a serious wrong. After the punishment, time for forgiveness and moving on. To reward her because she was "good" in taking the punishment implies that she had a choice. If you want to reward her for taking a lot for you in a nonpunishment session - now THAT makes sense.

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Post #: 21

RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage - 10/18/2010 1:08:51 PM

strippedwarrior

Posts: 21
Joined: 10/26/2009
Status: offline

I apologise for my intrusion, dangling as opposed to dimpling, and being submissive as opposed to Dominant. Going over slightly dusty memories, and weighing up counting, recounts and 'ah what the hell I'll round up'. I think the headspace of the submissive, especially on the approach to the activity is important. Similar situations can be more painful if the submissive is aware the situation isn't designed to make them (ultimately) feel good. The submissive could try and deliberatly slip into 'sub-space' but a Dominant familier with that submissive should be able to spot this, and act upon it. The submissive, by not giving in to the chemical euphria that normally might carry them through such treatment, could feel the physical effect of the action more intensly.

There's alot of could's in there, because I'm trying to open it up as a theory. In my experiance, staying inside my skull while being worked over was more painful, than detaching and floating off. Even under similar level's of caning and flogging.

Edit-

On the topic of a sub/slave approaching punishment. I agree that perhaps a submissive should be rewarded for submitting to something that was optional, and painful. A slave however, shouldn't be. After all, a slave (in a safe D/s realtionship, within the boundries of thier contract etc) shouldn't have a choice in the matter. Then again, rewarding your boy/girl for enduring something is a kindness.

< Message edited by strippedwarrior -- 10/18/2010 1:13:56 PM >

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 22

RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage - 10/18/2010 2:51:22 PM

sweetsub1957

Posts: 2201
Joined: 4/28/2009
Status: offline

~FR~
It would confuse me to be punished for something I did wrong and then given a "reward." Why should one be rewarded for taking a punishment well-deserved? Rewards, in my mind, are for doing well.

~sweetsub~

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In lowering yourself to talking behind my back, you're perfectly positioned to kiss my ass.

An it harm none, do what ye wilt.

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Post #: 23

RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage - 10/18/2010 3:02:22 PM

SorceressJ

Posts: 2968
Joined: 7/24/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetsub1957

~FR~
It would confuse me to be punished for something I did wrong and then given a "reward." Why should one be rewarded for taking a punishment well-deserved? Rewards, in my mind, are for doing well.

~sweetsub~

I agree with this, and likewise was always confused by it. IMO, "punishment" is just that, generally rendered for real life fuckups and other wrongdoings. Spankings are pleasure, not punishment; the tears and sub-space, catharsis. If my One really wanted to punish me, He would withhold pleasure altogether, or cause me to do something He knew I didn't want to do, but perhaps a something that would teach me an actual life lesson. He's wise like that.
Please remember that this is my opinion only, and a reflection of my own relationship dynamic, and is not to be taken as a judgement on how others should see or feel about it, because that is no one's place but their own to say.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 24

RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage - 10/18/2010 5:03:02 PM

sunshinemiss

Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BonesFromAsh

quote:

ORIGINAL: HypnoPants

Anyways, I write down anything she does during a depressive attack that may have hurt me physically or mentally... so that we can discuss it at a later date, or to punish her for, etc.
Punishments are done ONLY when she's stable enough to handle them.

I have the feeling you have no understanding of the difference between a moody person and someone who is diagnosed with an actual depressive disorder.

Your statement above makes no sense in relation to your previous statement...

quote:

especially that you can't be dominant when they're having an episode... that makes it all worse... also that their anger/negative feelings they have at the time are not directed at you, they just can't help it... best to realize that and not let it get it to you...

Stop trying to play therapist and be a responsible partner by leading this woman, if drepression is her diagnosed issued, in the direction of a real professional.

QUOTED FOR FUCKING TRUTH.

Now lookie here, Einstein, Would you also punish her for needing her insulin shots if she were diabetic? Naughty naughty! Or would you punish her for not getting you your coffee when she has a broken leg? The damn selfish wench! Or would you punish her for not getting taller! Oh my god!!! Throw her to the wolves!!!!

Seriously, dude. This is a medical problem... to be handled by ... oh I don't know... a medical professional?

You can't make her have different brain chemicals. I'm sorry. That doesn't come with the Begginner Dominant's Manual.

*diagnosis. Savior Complex.

have a nice day,
sunshine

_____________________________

Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

(in reply to BonesFromAsh)

Post #: 25

RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage - 10/18/2010 6:02:46 PM

tiggerspoohbear

Posts: 19141
Joined: 6/27/2010
Status: offline

I suffer from clinical depression, G.A.D. and associated other disorders. I'm a damn good submissive and I don't go looking for punishment, ever. If I do something wrong, it's an honest mistake and I expect to be corrected on it or shown how to do it right.

Being punished because I've "thrown a depressive fit" is not going to help in the least. Yes, I'm medicated, will be for the rest of my life. Luckily for me I've found a Dom who understands that sometimes my insecurities and lash-outs are not directed at him, but come from me not knowing what's going on. He calms me down, waits til I'm making sense again then the issue is addressed. In no way would I be punished for it. My brain waves don't function normally, and depression is an illness, not something to play around with.

I'm currently on a long waiting list for psycho-therapy and a psychiatrist. Until then, I'm stuck on meds that no longer work well and keep me in an unbalanced state at times. It's tough enough to fight the medical community and the bureaucrats without being attacked by the person I care for so deeply and who cares for me as much.

'Nuff said.

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Post #: 26

RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage - 10/18/2010 6:08:32 PM

LadyHibiscus

Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline

NThank you, Sunny and Poohbear. As a fellow member of the drugged for life brigade, and as a person who had a mentally ill slave for a time, the OP was making my head explode with his comments.

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[page 23 girl]

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Post #: 27

RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage - 10/18/2010 6:16:21 PM

tiggerspoohbear

Posts: 19141
Joined: 6/27/2010
Status: offline

And thanks LadyHib for making me feel like I'm not the only one out there. You don't know how much it's appreciated, especially tonight.

And thanks too to Sunshine for making sense and trying to make someone else see that being depressed is an illness, a damn disease, not something people wish on themselves.
Both of

_____________________________

"RABBIT IS GOOD, RABBIT IS WISE".

"I'm a baaa-aaad pussycat".

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Post #: 28

RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage - 10/18/2010 6:32:27 PM

LadyHibiscus

Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline

No prob, Poohbear! Confusing BDSM with therapy is a giant NO in my book.

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[page 23 girl]

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Post #: 29

RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage - 10/18/2010 6:40:13 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: strippedwarrior
Edit-

On the topic of a sub/slave approaching punishment. I agree that perhaps a submissive should be rewarded for submitting to something that was optional, and painful. A slave however, shouldn't be. After all, a slave (in a safe D/s realtionship, within the boundries of thier contract etc) shouldn't have a choice in the matter. Then again, rewarding your boy/girl for enduring something is a kindness.

It may be seen as a kindness, but I don't view taking the punishment as a choice. I don't think it matters whether the person in the dynamic is a submissive or a slave. That's just semantics. Does it really matter if it's a Dominant or a Master/Mistress administering the punishment? Same thing.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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Post #: 30

RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage - 10/19/2010 1:46:20 AM

strippedwarrior

Posts: 21
Joined: 10/26/2009
Status: offline

I would say that the title of the Dominant doesn't matter, but the attitude of the submitting individual does. Going to a play party, I'm more likely to simply submit and accept a given set of limitations. When I spend time as someones slave, I approach it slightly differantly and am willing to be far more limited. It may be semantics, but semantic's help to define the specifics.

I agree, punishment shouldn't be a choice on the submitting individuals behalf. I was approaching the slave/ submisive angle as two differant mentalities in the relationship. To use broad strokes I would say someone who has freedom to do as they will from day to day, with no perminant Dominant, identifies with the submissive mindset, and submits to another on as many occasion as they wish, is a submissive. A slave I would lean toward saying was someone who was in a D/s relationship, who didn't have thier own liberties and was only permitted to do what the Dominant part wished. The slave may be granted liberties by the Dominant, but they can be withdrawn at any time.

Perhaps I should have seperated the last sentance from the rest of the paragraph because I meant that if the Dominant element simply let loose on the submissive or slave, then rewarding them in some way for taking it was a kindness. Even if its simply skin to skin contact, a reward doesn't have to be a massage. Then again, there is no requirment to be kind I suppose.

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 31

RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage - 10/19/2010 8:47:56 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

I think some of your terminology is a bit different than Mine, strippedwarrior. Maybe if we get on the same page, we'll understand each other better.

I consider a D/s dynamic to be Dominant and submissive. That isn't necessarily a situation where someone goes to a party and agrees to submit for a limited amount of time to someone. (Not to be confused with topping and bottoming for play or a scene.) It is a situation where there may be some limits on authority, but that doesn't mean that it is temporary. A D/s dynamic may or may not include punishment, but if it is within the scope of the dynamic, I don't see that the submissive necessarily has a choice if the Dominant has determined that a punishment is warranted.

M/s is where the term slave comes into it. As a generalization, there can be more authority turned over to the Master/Mistress. There may or may not be more control over various areas of the slave's life. I don't tend to mix the term slave in relation to D/s (Dominant/submissive).

Whether the person considers themselves a slave or a submissive may not have any substance to the situation regarding punishment. If a Dominant includes punishment in the dynamic, the submissive has to assess before they are collared to that person, if punishment is a concept that they can accept is a potential in the relationship. That is when they had a choice of accepting whether or not that can be a possible outcome. That is part of the power that they turn over to the Dominant when the collar goes on their neck or the contract is signed. They give that authority to the Dominant to make the determination on the subject.

In the dynamics (permanent relationships) that I have considered D/s, before a submissive has belonged to Me, I have made them aware that I do include punishment within that dynamic. As My submissive, they do not get a "choice" whether or not to accept it if they want to continue to belong to Me. That is the exact choice they have. Either accept the punishment or use the door.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to strippedwarrior)

Post #: 32

RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage - 10/19/2010 9:27:46 AM

sweetsub1957

Posts: 2201
Joined: 4/28/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tiggerspoohbear

And thanks LadyHib for making me feel like I'm not the only one out there. You don't know how much it's appreciated, especially tonight.

And thanks too to Sunshine for making sense and trying to make someone else see that being depressed is an illness, a damn disease, not something people wish on themselves.
Both of

You're not the only one for sure.

I will be medicated for bipolar my whole life. HUGS

~sweetsub~

_____________________________

Member: Lance's Fag Hags.

"That's not just a chip on her shoulder, that's the whole potato!" ~Lady Angelika~

In lowering yourself to talking behind my back, you're perfectly positioned to kiss my ass.

An it harm none, do what ye wilt.

(in reply to tiggerspoohbear)

Post #: 33

RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage - 10/19/2010 9:35:02 AM

HypnoPants

Posts: 32
Joined: 1/16/2006
From: Edmonton, Alberta
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BonesFromAsh

quote:

ORIGINAL: HypnoPants

Anyways, I write down anything she does during a depressive attack that may have hurt me physically or mentally... so that we can discuss it at a later date, or to punish her for, etc.
Punishments are done ONLY when she's stable enough to handle them.

I have the feeling you have no understanding of the difference between a moody person and someone who is diagnosed with an actual depressive disorder.

Your statement above makes no sense in relation to your previous statement...

quote:

especially that you can't be dominant when they're having an episode... that makes it all worse... also that their anger/negative feelings they have at the time are not directed at you, they just can't help it... best to realize that and not let it get it to you...

Stop trying to play therapist and be a responsible partner by leading this woman, if drepression is her diagnosed issued, in the direction of a real professional.

actually I'm taking psychology in University, and these steps I'm taking are recommended by people who've survived depression, along with research including 'how to talk to people with depression'.

_____________________________

I am Hypno Pants! The man with hypnotic pants! Stare into my butt and you will be hypnotized! :)

(in reply to BonesFromAsh)

Post #: 34

RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage - 10/19/2010 9:37:08 AM

HypnoPants

Posts: 32
Joined: 1/16/2006
From: Edmonton, Alberta
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: poise

I think the scenario as you presented it would more likely confuse the poor girl.
"Man, that butt massage was so sensual, and I loved the feel of his hands carressing me with the oils
perhaps if I'm bad again, I'll get another wonderful massage"
While I'm not a big fan of punishment dynamics, if I deserve it, I dont want to be coddled afterwards.
As hausboy said so well, the reward is the lesson learned.

thank you, this is the kind of opinions and information I'm looking for :P

_____________________________

I am Hypno Pants! The man with hypnotic pants! Stare into my butt and you will be hypnotized! :)

(in reply to poise)

Post #: 35

RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage - 10/19/2010 9:40:15 AM

HypnoPants

Posts: 32
Joined: 1/16/2006
From: Edmonton, Alberta
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I don't use punishment in this way. To Me, if there's an actual punishment involved, there is no confusing the matter by "rewarding" My submissive for enduring the punishment. If we're in a situation that has gotten so bad that a punishment is coming into it, that means there is something seriously wrong in the dynamic. It's not a game that I'm playing to make him emotionally distraught so he'll feel great later. I wouldn't do that anymore than I'd tell My husband that I want a divorce so I can show him how much I love him. The way that I use punishment is as a consequence or to correct behavior. The idea is to implement it so the infraction isn't repeated.

ah okay I see
see, this is why I made this topic in the first place :P I wasn't sure.

_____________________________

I am Hypno Pants! The man with hypnotic pants! Stare into my butt and you will be hypnotized! :)

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 36

RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage - 10/19/2010 9:42:12 AM

HypnoPants

Posts: 32
Joined: 1/16/2006
From: Edmonton, Alberta
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: HypnoPants

what?! no bacon?! blasphemy!

I'm Jewish.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I don't use punishment in this way. To Me, if there's an actual punishment involved, there is no confusing the matter by "rewarding" My submissive for enduring the punishment. If we're in a situation that has gotten so bad that a punishment is coming into it, that means there is something seriously wrong in the dynamic. It's not a game that I'm playing to make him emotionally distraught so he'll feel great later. I wouldn't do that anymore than I'd tell My husband that I want a divorce so I can show him how much I love him. The way that I use punishment is as a consequence or to correct behavior. The idea is to implement it so the infraction isn't repeated.

Thanks, LadyPact. The whole thing felt wrong to me, but I couldn't verbalize it.

A punishment is there to correct a serious wrong. After the punishment, time for forgiveness and moving on. To reward her because she was "good" in taking the punishment implies that she had a choice. If you want to reward her for taking a lot for you in a nonpunishment session - now THAT makes sense.

Turkey Bacon!!! :P
and agreed, thank you for your opinions/info.
And I think that makes sense in terms of taking a lot for me in a nonpunishment session.

_____________________________

I am Hypno Pants! The man with hypnotic pants! Stare into my butt and you will be hypnotized! :)

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 37

RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage - 10/19/2010 9:54:08 AM

HypnoPants

Posts: 32
Joined: 1/16/2006
From: Edmonton, Alberta
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: strippedwarrior

I apologise for my intrusion, dangling as opposed to dimpling, and being submissive as opposed to Dominant. Going over slightly dusty memories, and weighing up counting, recounts and 'ah what the hell I'll round up'. I think the headspace of the submissive, especially on the approach to the activity is important. Similar situations can be more painful if the submissive is aware the situation isn't designed to make them (ultimately) feel good. The submissive could try and deliberatly slip into 'sub-space' but a Dominant familier with that submissive should be able to spot this, and act upon it. The submissive, by not giving in to the chemical euphria that normally might carry them through such treatment, could feel the physical effect of the action more intensly.

There's alot of could's in there, because I'm trying to open it up as a theory. In my experiance, staying inside my skull while being worked over was more painful, than detaching and floating off. Even under similar level's of caning and flogging.

Edit-

On the topic of a sub/slave approaching punishment. I agree that perhaps a submissive should be rewarded for submitting to something that was optional, and painful. A slave however, shouldn't be. After all, a slave (in a safe D/s realtionship, within the boundries of thier contract etc) shouldn't have a choice in the matter. Then again, rewarding your boy/girl for enduring something is a kindness.

thank you for your opinions/info/etc.
now you've got me all over the place, lol.

that's one of the reasons I mentioned that if you tell her it's punishment beforehand... it actually hurts, she no longer feels euphoria, but instead pain... understanding that she's being punished.
but yes, I like to reward her to remind her I Love her and to show that I'm not punishing her out of hate... depression episodes will tend to make you unable to remember you love someone until the episode has passed...
Which is again why I'm asking all this, to get some more information on the whole subject.
So again, thank for you for offering some useful information/criticism, and not just trolling complaints :P

_____________________________

I am Hypno Pants! The man with hypnotic pants! Stare into my butt and you will be hypnotized! :)

(in reply to strippedwarrior)

Post #: 38

RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage - 10/19/2010 10:11:12 AM

HypnoPants

Posts: 32
Joined: 1/16/2006
From: Edmonton, Alberta
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

quote:

ORIGINAL: BonesFromAsh

quote:

ORIGINAL: HypnoPants

Anyways, I write down anything she does during a depressive attack that may have hurt me physically or mentally... so that we can discuss it at a later date, or to punish her for, etc.
Punishments are done ONLY when she's stable enough to handle them.

I have the feeling you have no understanding of the difference between a moody person and someone who is diagnosed with an actual depressive disorder.

Your statement above makes no sense in relation to your previous statement...

quote:

especially that you can't be dominant when they're having an episode... that makes it all worse... also that their anger/negative feelings they have at the time are not directed at you, they just can't help it... best to realize that and not let it get it to you...

Stop trying to play therapist and be a responsible partner by leading this woman, if drepression is her diagnosed issued, in the direction of a real professional.

QUOTED FOR FUCKING TRUTH.

Now lookie here, Einstein, Would you also punish her for needing her insulin shots if she were diabetic? Naughty naughty! Or would you punish her for not getting you your coffee when she has a broken leg? The damn selfish wench! Or would you punish her for not getting taller! Oh my god!!! Throw her to the wolves!!!!

Seriously, dude. This is a medical problem... to be handled by ... oh I don't know... a medical professional?

You can't make her have different brain chemicals. I'm sorry. That doesn't come with the Begginner Dominant's Manual.

*diagnosis. Savior Complex.

have a nice day,
sunshine

Thank You :P she's seen professionals before and I'm in the midst of getting her to another soon... at the moment though, I'm taking my psychology major so I can at least know what to do/how to handle her.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tiggerspoohbear

I suffer from clinical depression, G.A.D. and associated other disorders. I'm a damn good submissive and I don't go looking for punishment, ever. If I do something wrong, it's an honest mistake and I expect to be corrected on it or shown how to do it right.

Being punished because I've "thrown a depressive fit" is not going to help in the least. Yes, I'm medicated, will be for the rest of my life. Luckily for me I've found a Dom who understands that sometimes my insecurities and lash-outs are not directed at him, but come from me not knowing what's going on. He calms me down, waits til I'm making sense again then the issue is addressed. In no way would I be punished for it. My brain waves don't function normally, and depression is an illness, not something to play around with.

I'm currently on a long waiting list for psycho-therapy and a psychiatrist. Until then, I'm stuck on meds that no longer work well and keep me in an unbalanced state at times. It's tough enough to fight the medical community and the bureaucrats without being attacked by the person I care for so deeply and who cares for me as much.

'Nuff said.

*nods*
Thank You for your opinions/info/etc.

_____________________________

I am Hypno Pants! The man with hypnotic pants! Stare into my butt and you will be hypnotized! :)

(in reply to tiggerspoohbear)

Post #: 39

RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage - 10/19/2010 12:37:24 PM

BonesFromAsh

Posts: 1362
Joined: 6/17/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HypnoPants

quote:

ORIGINAL: BonesFromAsh

quote:

ORIGINAL: HypnoPants

Anyways, I write down anything she does during a depressive attack that may have hurt me physically or mentally... so that we can discuss it at a later date, or to punish her for, etc.
Punishments are done ONLY when she's stable enough to handle them.

I have the feeling you have no understanding of the difference between a moody person and someone who is diagnosed with an actual depressive disorder.

Your statement above makes no sense in relation to your previous statement...

quote:

especially that you can't be dominant when they're having an episode... that makes it all worse... also that their anger/negative feelings they have at the time are not directed at you, they just can't help it... best to realize that and not let it get it to you...

Stop trying to play therapist and be a responsible partner by leading this woman, if drepression is her diagnosed issued, in the direction of a real professional.

actually I'm taking psychology in University, and these steps I'm taking are recommended by people who've survived depression, along with research including 'how to talk to people with depression'.

Perhaps you could address the two quotes I posted and explain what seems to be double talk. What do you hope to achieve by punishing your partner for a problem that relates to brain chemistry?

You do understand the difference between punishment and discipline, yes?

Discipline is training that corrects. It molds, empowers and enhances a person for the better. Punishment comes when there are consequences set for rules that are broken. (paraphrased from within reality

What's the goal with your actions?

< Message edited by BonesFromAsh -- 10/19/2010 12:49:10 PM >

(in reply to HypnoPants)

Post #: 40

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