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Wikileaks saviours of the free world - again - 10/23/2010 8:04:02 AM

hertz

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Where would we be without Wikileaks?

So-called free and democratic governments would be able to get on with torturing people, or standing around and offering advice whilst people are tortured by others, and none of us would know a thing about it. And they'd be able to claim to be 'da good guyz' and we'd have to believe their shit because there would be nothing to attack their claim with.

Anyway, once again, the US and UK have been caught with their pants around their ankles.

quote:

The release of nearly 400,000 classified Iraq war documents by whistleblowing website Wikileaks could endanger UK service personnel, the Ministry of Defence has said.
The leaked material suggests US commanders ignored evidence of torture by the Iraqi authorities.

The documents also suggest "hundreds" of civilians were killed at US military checkpoints after the invasion in 2003.
BBC

Post #: 1

RE: Wikileaks saviours of the free world - again - 10/23/2010 8:24:18 AM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

Where would we be without Wikileaks?

So-called free and democratic governments would be able to get on with torturing people, or standing around and offering advice whilst people are tortured by others, and none of us would know a thing about it. And they'd be able to claim to be 'da good guyz' and we'd have to believe their shit because there would be nothing to attack their claim with.

Anyway, once again, the US and UK have been caught with their pants around their ankles.

quote:

The release of nearly 400,000 classified Iraq war documents by whistleblowing website Wikileaks could endanger UK service personnel, the Ministry of Defence has said.
The leaked material suggests US commanders ignored evidence of torture by the Iraqi authorities.

The documents also suggest "hundreds" of civilians were killed at US military checkpoints after the invasion in 2003.
BBC

And some people just live in a fantasy world, where all problems are resolved in no more than 90 minutes, the criminal is always caught and convicted, and "being right" ensures success.

Others of us understand that reality can be a bit more messy.

Firm

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RE: Wikileaks saviours of the free world - again - 10/23/2010 8:26:09 AM

tazzygirl

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Especially for those named in those documents.

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Post #: 3

RE: Wikileaks saviours of the free world - again - 10/23/2010 8:27:10 AM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
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So who is for war crimes?

Bush?

Obama?

WHO! DAMMIT WHOM! WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 4

RE: Wikileaks saviours of the free world - again - 10/23/2010 9:34:36 AM

hertz

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Joined: 8/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Others of us understand that reality can be a bit more messy.

Just how many dead civilians and illegally tortured combatants does it take to make 'messy'?

The point isn't that war is bloody and pointless - we already know that. The point is that our free and democratic governments deliberately and consistently lie to us, and it takes Wikileaks to show us the truth.

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Post #: 5

RE: Wikileaks saviours of the free world - again - 10/23/2010 9:49:17 AM

FullCircle

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Also we have to ask ourselves how safer it has all made us consisting that terrorists can just set up anywhere, it's the using a sledge hammer to crack a nut approach.

I would have liked to have seen a world without those wars, we wouldn't have been in so much debt and terrorists blowing themselves up means the problem is ultimately self correcting.

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RE: Wikileaks saviours of the free world - again - 10/23/2010 9:51:03 AM

hertz

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quote:

terrorists blowing themselves up means the problem is ultimately self correcting.

There's something in this...

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Post #: 7

RE: Wikileaks saviours of the free world - again - 10/23/2010 11:14:44 AM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
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From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

quote:

terrorists blowing themselves up means the problem is ultimately self correcting.

There's something in this...

Sure there is.....as long as one ignores the fact that said terrorists usually try to take as many innocents(was that not the thrust of your OP hertz?) as possible with them.
Now if said terrorists were in the habit of blowing themselves up in relative isolation...that could work for me.Alas,I do not see them adopting this method anytime soon.

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RE: Wikileaks saviours of the free world - again - 10/23/2010 11:31:03 AM

FullCircle

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People of western society either die in the west or in the east this is the only factor governments are seemingly able to control with these wars.

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Post #: 9

RE: Wikileaks saviours of the free world - again - 10/23/2010 1:04:21 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Others of us understand that reality can be a bit more messy.

Just how many dead civilians and illegally tortured combatants does it take to make 'messy'?

The point isn't that war is bloody and pointless - we already know that. The point is that our free and democratic governments deliberately and consistently lie to us, and it takes Wikileaks to show us the truth.

I haven't read the entire 400,000 documents, and doubt I ever will.

I have, however, read many unit reports from other wars, and participated in a war myself.

I did read a more detailed evaluation of what the archives stolen above contain.

As far as I am aware, there are no claims of US war crimes. There is simply reports of events and actions that the soldiers were required to report, so that action could be taken by the political leaders of both sides.

Were there bad incidents, and nasty things that happened? Sure. No doubt. But the fact is that there isn't, in general, anything that we were "lied about" or that show some massive conspiracy or plan.

It's just the dirty side of war that many do not wish to hear about in the first place.

There are many who like to eat meat, but would be sickened to visit the places and see how that meat is obtained.

Which is a pretty good analogy of the people such as you who express disgust at the soldiers and the processes required to give you the safe little world where you visit the store and buy your beer and food, and come home and watch your television, and waste hours on the 'net, finding porn and forums.

I really have little patience for your outrage.

Firm

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Post #: 10

RE: Wikileaks saviours of the free world - again - 10/23/2010 1:43:44 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
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From: Dirty Jersey
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I don`t think the leakers are well intentioned or acting in good faith.Again,they haven`t revealed anything new or relevant.And again,they have put our contacts and operatives at risk.

I better not meet one in person.Someone`s getting a broken nose.

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Post #: 11

RE: Wikileaks saviours of the free world - again - 10/23/2010 1:57:41 PM

Jaybeee

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Joined: 2/2/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I don`t think the leakers are well intentioned or acting in good faith.Again,they haven`t revealed anything new or relevant.And again,they have put our contacts and operatives at risk.

I better not meet one in person.Someone`s getting a broken nose.

Well, given that above statement, I wish I were one of those responsible for the rightful flow of information.

Actually, it would be an ENORMOUS honour to be one of those brave heroes bringing the truth to our fellow man, but the above is icing on the cake.

And just so you know, bucko, I use my elbow - the chaotic shatter pattern of the nasal bridge from an elbow strike means that corrective surgery is going to cost 5x the usual to painstakingly pick out several hundred fragments, as opposed to under a dozen.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 12

RE: Wikileaks saviours of the free world - again - 10/23/2010 2:05:43 PM

FullCircle

Posts: 5713
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee
And just so you know, bucko, I use my elbow - the chaotic shatter pattern of the nasal bridge from an elbow strike means that corrective surgery is going to cost 5x the usual to painstakingly pick out several hundred fragments, as opposed to under a dozen.

This is a weird thing to do research on.

I suppose you have an internet source to back up these cost findings?

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RE: Wikileaks saviours of the free world - again - 10/23/2010 2:13:21 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I don`t think the leakers are well intentioned or acting in good faith.Again,they haven`t revealed anything new or relevant.And again,they have put our contacts and operatives at risk.

I better not meet one in person.Someone`s getting a broken nose.

Well, given that above statement, I wish I were one of those responsible for the rightful flow of information.

Actually, it would be an ENORMOUS honour to be one of those brave heroes bringing the truth to our fellow man, but the above is icing on the cake.

And just so you know, bucko, I use my elbow - the chaotic shatter pattern of the nasal bridge from an elbow strike means that corrective surgery is going to cost 5x the usual to painstakingly pick out several hundred fragments, as opposed to under a dozen.

Jaybeee, are you a Leftist?

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RE: Wikileaks saviours of the free world - again - 10/23/2010 2:18:34 PM

Jaybeee

Posts: 532
Joined: 2/2/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee
And just so you know, bucko, I use my elbow - the chaotic shatter pattern of the nasal bridge from an elbow strike means that corrective surgery is going to cost 5x the usual to painstakingly pick out several hundred fragments, as opposed to under a dozen.

This is a weird thing to do research on.

I suppose you have an internet source to back up these cost findings?

Experience. One chap assaulted me in '03 and his brief was almost disbarred for attempting to artificially inflate the medical costs, but mine proved that the average Rhinoplasty for simply skewed nasal lines was 20-22$% of the cost of more serious reconstruction that you'd find in RTA's or other nearly fatal incidents.

(in reply to FullCircle)

Post #: 15

RE: Wikileaks saviours of the free world - again - 10/23/2010 2:19:23 PM

hertz

Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

As far as I am aware, there are no claims of US war crimes.

In as far as it is not a war crime to do nothing whilst an ally tortures 'the enemy', then I guess not. In the UK, this would be considered to be a crime (although prosecution is unlikely). I understand the US has a more flexible approach to the use of torture.

quote:

But the fact is that there isn't, in general, anything that we were "lied about" or that show some massive conspiracy or plan.

That would be my main argument. Information which should be of interest to the voting public in a democracy has been covered up and buried. Presumably to protect the guilty and to stop the politicians from having to account for themselves. We have also clearly been lied to. The US has long denied keeping count of the thousands of dead Iraqi civilians. The documents released by Wikileaks suggest otherwise. The number, just in case you are interested, is 66,081. That's a lot of 'mess' to use your earlier euphemism for the careless killing of innocents.

quote:

Which is a pretty good analogy of the people such as you who express disgust at the soldiers and the processes required to give you the safe little world where you visit the store and buy your beer and food, and come home and watch your television, and waste hours on the 'net, finding porn and forums.

Actually, I would argue that it is US military intervention across the globe over the last 60 years (as well as the interventions of my own country's military) which has put me in more danger than I might otherwise have been in. My way of life has not been protected, rather I have been put in the firing line along with millions of other innocent people all across the world.

(in reply to Jaybeee)

Post #: 16

RE: Wikileaks saviours of the free world - again - 10/23/2010 2:20:20 PM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I don`t think the leakers are well intentioned or acting in good faith.Again,they haven`t revealed anything new or relevant.And again,they have put our contacts and operatives at risk.

I better not meet one in person.Someone`s getting a broken nose.

Well, given that above statement, I wish I were one of those responsible for the rightful flow of information.

Actually, it would be an ENORMOUS honour to be one of those brave heroes bringing the truth to our fellow man, but the above is icing on the cake.

And just so you know, bucko, I use my elbow - the chaotic shatter pattern of the nasal bridge from an elbow strike means that corrective surgery is going to cost 5x the usual to painstakingly pick out several hundred fragments, as opposed to under a dozen.

Well, other than your display of the graphically puerile and juvenile parts of you inner soul, you haven't really qualified why you think they are "heroes".

I'm in agreement with Owner on this one: I don't think that the leaks were meant for any "higher purpose", other than publicity and making a name for themselves.

And I have other questions about "wikileaks" as well.

Firm

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Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Jaybeee)

Post #: 17

RE: Wikileaks saviours of the free world - again - 10/23/2010 2:26:06 PM

Jaybeee

Posts: 532
Joined: 2/2/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I don`t think the leakers are well intentioned or acting in good faith.Again,they haven`t revealed anything new or relevant.And again,they have put our contacts and operatives at risk.

I better not meet one in person.Someone`s getting a broken nose.

Well, given that above statement, I wish I were one of those responsible for the rightful flow of information.

Actually, it would be an ENORMOUS honour to be one of those brave heroes bringing the truth to our fellow man, but the above is icing on the cake.

And just so you know, bucko, I use my elbow - the chaotic shatter pattern of the nasal bridge from an elbow strike means that corrective surgery is going to cost 5x the usual to painstakingly pick out several hundred fragments, as opposed to under a dozen.

Well, other than your display of the graphically puerile and juvenile parts of you inner soul, you haven't really qualified why you think they are "heroes".

I don't "really" need to. They are; your delusions do not alter that fact. Bow down, and show them the respect you owe.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 18

RE: Wikileaks saviours of the free world - again - 10/23/2010 2:28:59 PM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

I don't "really" need to. They are; your delusions do not alter that fact. Bow down, and show them the respect you owe.

In other words, you got nothing.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

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Post #: 19

RE: Wikileaks saviours of the free world - again - 10/23/2010 2:32:23 PM

Jaybeee

Posts: 532
Joined: 2/2/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

I don't "really" need to. They are; your delusions do not alter that fact. Bow down, and show them the respect you owe.

In other words, you got nothing.

Firm

No, in THESE words, you need to raise your game before you end up on 'Ignore'. I don't tolerate bores for long.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 20

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