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RE: Wikileaks saviours of the free world - again - 10/23/2010 3:46:39 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

quote:

As for wasting time, I would submit that's not an issue for you, given that you have found the time over 4.5 years to post almost 9 times a day. You must have a nice, easy job, if any.

He shoots, he scores! The crowd go wild....

I wouldn't say that. Not having a dog in this fight on the issue itself yet, his debate tactics pretty much are riddled with logical fallacies...ad hom being the one you're celebrating here.

Raiikun, are you a Lefty? (I'm going for a hat trick.)

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RE: Wikileaks saviours of the free world - again - 10/23/2010 3:47:33 PM

Raiikun

Posts: 2650
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

quote:

As for wasting time, I would submit that's not an issue for you, given that you have found the time over 4.5 years to post almost 9 times a day. You must have a nice, easy job, if any.

He shoots, he scores! The crowd go wild....

I wouldn't say that. Not having a dog in this fight on the issue itself yet, his debate tactics pretty much are riddled with logical fallacies...ad hom being the one you're celebrating here.

This is not a debate, dear boy. This is education.

Oh, so you're not arguing or discussing opposing viewpoints here? Got it. Either way, ad hominems don't particularly educate much.

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Post #: 42

RE: Wikileaks saviours of the free world - again - 10/23/2010 3:48:00 PM

Jaybeee

Posts: 532
Joined: 2/2/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Jaybeee, are you a Leftist?

A naive categorisation employing a woefully lazy system of compartmentalisation. Like many, if not most, I am a "leftist" in some areas, and not in others. My heart, not some external dogma, dictates where I stand.

In other words ... yes.

Please ... put me on ignore.

Firm

Yup, he's a leftist. They don't "think" they,....."feel."
Go ahead and put me on "ignore" too so we don't waste each other's time Jaybeee.

I would recommend the 'Hide' function I just noticed and deployed for the first time with your rather vacuous friend. Much quicker than the 'Ignore' list. As for wasting time, I would submit that's not an issue for you, given that you have found the time over 4.5 years to post almost 9 times a day. You must have a nice, easy job, if any.

Jaybeee, I'm flattered that you'd even care how many times per day I'd post or even take the time to research it!
And yes, I'm pretty fortunate at this point in my life. That wasn't always so though, I worked a lot of 80 hour weeks, saved, invested and managed my money wisely.
Goodbye Lefty.

It's not "research", it's just 14595/(4.5*365). Well, I can see how that would constitute "research" to YOU.

80 hour weeks? Yes, I understand Dog Catchers make good coin from o/time. All those hunting skills learned in Special Forces have an application in civvy life after all. I always said we could find even dysfunctional grunts work in a functional society.

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Post #: 43

RE: Wikileaks saviours of the free world - again - 10/23/2010 3:49:11 PM

hertz

Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
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quote:

Hertz, are you a Lefty?

Is that a trick question?

Compared with yourself, I would imagine almost everybody is.

But yes, economically and socially I tend to fall to the extreme left of the spectrum.

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Post #: 44

RE: Wikileaks saviours of the free world - again - 10/23/2010 3:51:27 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
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From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

quote:

Hertz, are you a Lefty?

Is that a trick question?

Compared with yourself, I would imagine almost everybody is.

But yes, economically and socially I tend to fall to the extreme left of the spectrum.

Please put me on your ignore or hide list.
Goodbye Lefty.

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Post #: 45

RE: Wikileaks saviours of the free world - again - 10/23/2010 3:52:31 PM

hertz

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quote:

Please put me on your ignore or hide list.
Goodbye Lefty.

Do it yourself you lazy fucker!

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Post #: 46

RE: Wikileaks saviours of the free world - again - 10/23/2010 3:55:23 PM

Jaybeee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

quote:

As for wasting time, I would submit that's not an issue for you, given that you have found the time over 4.5 years to post almost 9 times a day. You must have a nice, easy job, if any.

He shoots, he scores! The crowd go wild....

I wouldn't say that. Not having a dog in this fight on the issue itself yet, his debate tactics pretty much are riddled with logical fallacies...ad hom being the one you're celebrating here.

This is not a debate, dear boy. This is education.

Oh, so you're not arguing or discussing opposing viewpoints here? Got it. Either way, ad hominems don't particularly educate much.

Well, a man who speaks as much Latin as you clearly do, what more could you possibly be educated in? Actually, let me submit, for arguing that would be the plural of "Ad hominem", which is not simply to feeble-mindedly add an 's', but rather the proper a, so...

"Argumenta ad hominem"

I really should start charging, but I sense you're as broke as the last fellow who bowed out, tail tucked firmly between hindquarters.

"Next!!"

:)

< Message edited by Jaybeee -- 10/23/2010 3:56:27 PM >

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RE: Wikileaks saviours of the free world - again - 10/23/2010 4:56:53 PM

NeedToUseYou

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You might as well give up arguing, most arguing against wikileaks, I know from posting history have "served" in the military and therefore very highly emotionally involved in the justifying of anything the military does of consequence. Or have a husband or son over there.

It's not politics, it's self-worth issues.

Wikleaks is not doing anything wrong, the military is not sacred, it's a tool to be used to perform certain functions, it's funded by tax money, and is supposed to ultimately serve the people of the US.

IF the military isn't up front enough to tell even basic information like death counts accurately, then they need to be exposed.

No one believes them now anyway... well except the indoctrinated, I suppose, but even they know it's lies, they just accept that lies are required in the pursuit of whatever the military wants to do. As if the function of the country is to serve the military in all of it's desired pursuits.

As far as my view, I think the military is out of control, and needs some accountability applied. I mean it's just the primary reason the country is going broke, no big deal, we shouldn't expect anything from it. Just shut up and salute! It's all good, 60000 that's nothing in the cause of fighting for democracy...................... hey they managed to get 20000ish supposed combatants, that's pretty good 3 innocents for 1 enemy........ A couple trillion dollars, nope we don't deserve basic information about what's happening.

Now you know and knowing is half the battle.

Go Joe.

But beyond the military leadership acting as if it's the king and it can make up the rules about what is or isn't important to know (even on things that would endanger no body), the real ultimate assholes are sitting in Washington, who started all these fucking wars, and leave troops all over the planet.

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RE: Wikileaks saviours of the free world - again - 10/24/2010 6:37:21 AM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I don`t think the leakers are well intentioned or acting in good faith.Again,they haven`t revealed anything new or relevant.And again,they have put our contacts and operatives at risk.

I better not meet one in person.Someone`s getting a broken nose.

Being the nonviolent type, I wouldn't go as far as to say I would like to punch one of them. But I would stand behind you and cheer alot.

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RE: Wikileaks saviours of the free world - again - 10/24/2010 6:43:36 AM

thishereboi

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quote:

Oh, so you're not arguing or discussing opposing viewpoints here? Got it. Either way, ad hominems don't particularly educate much.

Oh, I don't know about that. I have learned that I won't find anything intelligent in anything he posts. That's got to be worth something, doesn't it?

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RE: Wikileaks saviours of the free world - again - 10/24/2010 8:36:30 AM

hertz

Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I don`t think the leakers are well intentioned or acting in good faith.Again,they haven`t revealed anything new or relevant.And again,they have put our contacts and operatives at risk.

I failed to challenge this earlier, and would like to correct that.

quote:

I don`t think the leakers are well intentioned or acting in good faith.

Who are we talking about here? Are we talking about Bradley Manning, Thomas Drake and Shamai Kedem Leibowitz - the US citizens who felt strongly enough about the issue that they gave secret documents to Wikileaks? Or are we talking about Julian Assange and his team at Wikileaks? Why do you think they are not well intentioned or acting in good faith? Do you maybe think there is some sort of plot as suggested here?

quote:

...they haven`t revealed anything new or relevant.

I beg to differ. They have revealed that US forces regularly fail to investigate evidence of torture; that the US breached international law in relation to the torture of prisoners; that the civilian death count that the US administration denied having information about is, by their own records, 15,000 bodies higher than previously thought. I would imagine as the documents are further examined by journalists and others with an interest in defending the truth, we may well discover more that is new and relevant.

quote:

...they have put our contacts and operatives at risk.

That's the excuse for the cover-up. I don't buy it. Yes, of course the release of information about wrongdoing and breaches of international law will put people at risk. But maybe that needs to happen. Maybe the release of the information outweighs that risk. Personally, I think the greater risk is in allowing US forces to continue to behave in this way in utter secrecy.

There's a nice report about the story here http://www.nytimes.com where a parallel is drawn between what is happening now and the release of the Pentagon papers in 1971.

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RE: Wikileaks saviours of the free world - again - 10/24/2010 8:44:45 AM

Moonhead

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If anybody in the (evil, liberal, anti American) US press had the backbone to print any of this stuff, wikileaks would be redundant.
Who does that reflect the worst upon?

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RE: Wikileaks saviours of the free world - again - 10/24/2010 10:36:57 AM

Anaxagoras

Posts: 3086
Joined: 5/9/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
...they have put our contacts and operatives at risk.

That's the excuse for the cover-up. I don't buy it. Yes, of course the release of information about wrongdoing and breaches of international law will put people at risk. But maybe that needs to happen. Maybe the release of the information outweighs that risk. Personally, I think the greater risk is in allowing US forces to continue to behave in this way in utter secrecy.

Wikileaks could have released the information in a limited fashion to protect the details of operatives. They would still have been able to reveal the substance of the documents and if the US authorities poured doubt on the content they could have then released the material unedited. In this way the problematic aspects of the US administration could be revealed without putting individuals at very serious risk. The sheer amount of documents issued at once makes that even more of a problem. Its an obvious point and for that reason I believe Wikileaks are politically motivated and open to criticism.

I think the biggest issue here is conflicting morality and pragmatism in times of serious conflict. I didn't agree with the war in Iraq but now that it is a reality, the question of morality in serious conflict zones has to be raised in the context of unprecedented public access to the goings on there. It is simply insufficient for people like Hertz to say things like "The point isn't that war is bloody and pointless - we already know that" (BTW is Hertz going to report himself since he is name calling again e.g. calling Popeye a "lazy fucker"?). War is a manifestation of the human condition whether we like it or not and war is of course a profoundly ugly thing. If the option of torturing enemies is necessary to save a significant amount of life then I believe it can be justified morally. Clearly such a thing is open to abuse as occurred in Iraq. I appreciate that is a contentious opinion which I will be criticised for but who of us can honestly say how we would respond in a very savage conflict? I certainly can't anyway, and I personally believe it is too easy to sit in judgement of these horrible Americans without asking very hard questions about moral conduct in times of extremely serious conflict. Isn't it also objectionable to not blast someone with 20,000 volts if there's good reason to think doing so would save the lives of many innocents?

My point is that morality is not an abstraction, principles that we accept or reject. It is a considered response to the difficult situations in which we find ourselves - the weighing of good and evil. It don't come more difficult than large scale terrorism.

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RE: Wikileaks saviours of the free world - again - 10/24/2010 1:34:34 PM

hertz

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EDIT: Somehow ended up posting to the wrong thread...

< Message edited by hertz -- 10/24/2010 1:40:20 PM >

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