RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism (Full Version)

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Owner59 -> RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism (10/25/2010 5:53:33 PM)

Can we have some examples of the New Atheism?


And some examples of some New Atheists.


We have plenty of examples of right wing, christo-fascists.So many I don`t have to give examples.




GotSteel -> RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism (10/25/2010 9:18:40 PM)

I'd also like to see where in the New Atheism manual it's stated that scientists aren't capable of self-serving motivations or that we would end up with a utopia if it wasn't for religion.

I've found that sometimes when a detractor of a movement makes generalizations about the positions of said movement that inaccuracies can arise and it's better to go with a primary source. Since Kirata is explaining to us what New Atheism represents clearly he's read the manual and can cite chapter and verse to us. So go ahead Kirata back up your claims.




dreamysubmale -> RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism (10/26/2010 2:28:02 AM)

Is there moderate and fundamental atheists?




tazzygirl -> RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism (10/26/2010 2:56:02 AM)

yeah, its the new catch phrase of the season.




rulemylife -> RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism (10/26/2010 3:18:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Kirata's point is, I think (he'll correct me if I'm wrong, I trust), about the inherent lack of logic in extreme positions--from any of the extremes.



Except that I don't think most agnostics or atheists are extreme.

They just think there is no real evidence of a God.

And I think most would be happy to find out there is that evidence.

The only extremism I see is from those who insist on telling everyone there is a God because the Bible (or enter your preferred "holy book") tells us so.




Moonhead -> RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism (10/26/2010 4:31:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamysubmale

Is there moderate and fundamental atheists?

Let me put it this way: there seems to be a lot more atheists who are willing to let others believe whatever ridiculous nonsense they want than there are members of the religious right who are willing to humour other people's beliefs that differ from their own. Only one of these two groups are in the habit of demanding special treatment.




kdsub -> RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism (10/26/2010 8:47:00 AM)

Maybe I’m not here enough… I sure don’t read every religious thread…but… I’ve never, not once, ever ever ever read one person preach his or her faith to you. Yet every thread of a religious nature you call people of faith ridiculous and their beliefs nonsense… now who is the fanatic? And still you can’t see Kirata’s point…you my friend are THE perfect example.

Butch




Moonhead -> RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism (10/26/2010 8:57:47 AM)

As has been pointed out several times, Kirata doesn't have much of a point in the first place. He's having to tilt his argument heavily in order to equate creationists with even the most self righteous atheists.
Unless you can find a few examples yourself of atheists trying to banish religion from school teaching or force pregnant women to have abortions?
Your own conviction that anything vaguely critical of the fundamentalist nutcases is an attack on all persons with any religious convictions is rather more proof of you having an axe to grind about this than me having one. I'm perfectly happy for people to believe whatever nonsense makes them happy. You're getting snotty about somebody who does share your beliefs feeling that they're nonsense. Who's being less tolerant there?




Arpig -> RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism (10/26/2010 9:58:36 AM)

quote:

Can we have some examples of the New Atheism?
How about that "cerebral" fellow [;)] who used to post anti-religion threads galore on here not so long ago....the worst proselyte I ever came across.




DomKen -> RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism (10/26/2010 10:13:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Maybe I’m not here enough… I sure don’t read every religious thread…but… I’ve never, not once, ever ever ever read one person preach his or her faith to you. Yet every thread of a religious nature you call people of faith ridiculous and their beliefs nonsense… now who is the fanatic? And still you can’t see Kirata’s point…you my friend are THE perfect example.

Butch

Actually you do it. You're reasonably polite about it but you've tossed out Pascal's Wager a few times.
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3349851




kdsub -> RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism (10/26/2010 11:47:37 AM)

Being critical and disrespectful of others deeply held beliefs are two different things. You are not just critical, which I often am myself, but you like to belittle and insult.

Have I ever defended the radical element of religion... In fact point out someone here that has...you see you are the one using words of disrespect... you are a fanatic mirror to the very people you rant against... But I can see you are not capable of introspective thought so I'll not continue and become another mirror to you.

Butch




kdsub -> RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism (10/26/2010 11:52:14 AM)

Sooo... that is preaching...lol...I didn't know I had it in me. I'm just another Elmer Gantry I guess. [:D]




Moonhead -> RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism (10/26/2010 12:10:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
But I can see you are not capable of introspective thought so I'll not continue and become another mirror to you.

That isn't disrespect, then? (And come to that, vastly more snide and condescending than anything I've said in this thread.)
Pull the other one, it's got bells on.




PatrickG38 -> RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism (10/26/2010 12:25:57 PM)

As an atheist deeply sympathetic to serious Christianity (not fundamentalist nonsense), I would like to respond to the arguments offered by the OP and examine whether the equivalence between the religious fundamentalist and the atheist truly exist. It is asserted with little support that neither position is provable and this is no doubt true in the mathematic sense, but that does not mean that one side does not have a superior argument (it is not ‘provable’ O.J. Simpson killed his wife, but it is by far the better argument if debating whether he did or did not). So that neither can be absolutely proved should not prevent judging of the strength of the claims. The atheist does not usually say (when speaking carefully) that there is no god, but rather that there is no evidence there is a god and there is no need to posit there is a god and that therefore the belief in a god is an incorrect belief without sufficient (or any) serious empirical support. There is no god in the sense there are no unicorns; should a unicorn be found, a different opinion would be wisely held (I am excluding very powerful augments against the existence of an omnipotent omnibeneficent God).
Some atheist absolutely go too far in arguing, but in policy they pose no significant danger as the striking of words from money (which I could not care less about) will hardly alter society. Fundamentalist Christians, however, are an organized political force that poses an immense danger to individual freedom.
So while strictly true that there is no mathematic formula proving or disproving god, the two sides hardly have equal arguments and the danger posed by one is substantial while the danger posed by the other is non-existent.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism (10/26/2010 12:35:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38

As an atheist deeply sympathetic to serious Christianity (not fundamentalist nonsense), I would like to respond to the arguments offered by the OP and examine whether the equivalence between the religious fundamentalist and the atheist truly exist. It is asserted with little support that neither position is provable and this is no doubt true in the mathematic sense, but that does not mean that one side does not have a superior argument (it is not ‘provable’ O.J. Simpson killed his wife, but it is by far the better argument if debating whether he did or did not). So that neither can be absolutely proved should not prevent judging of the strength of the claims. The atheist does not usually say (when speaking carefully) that there is no god, but rather that there is no evidence there is a god and there is no need to posit there is a god and that therefore the belief in a god is an incorrect belief without sufficient (or any) serious empirical support. There is no god in the sense there are no unicorns; should a unicorn be found, a different opinion would be wisely held (I am excluding very powerful augments against the existence of an omnipotent omnibeneficent God).
Some atheist absolutely go too far in arguing, but in policy they pose no significant danger as the striking of words from money (which I could not care less about) will hardly alter society. Fundamentalist Christians, however, are an organized political force that poses an immense danger to individual freedom.
So while strictly true that there is no mathematic formula proving or disproving god, the two sides hardly have equal arguments and the danger posed by one is substantial while the danger posed by the other is non-existent.



Your presentation of the atheist argument is solid, but you stray when you try to extend it to the political arena. There are certainly atheist initiatives that have altered society. The banning of the pledge of allegiance in schools, for example, has had farreaching effects on how the US is viewed by different generations. The Courts have been used to enforce a tyranny of the atheist minority.

OTOH "Fundamentalism", regardless of the extent of its organization, has not managed to win favorable rulings from the Courts, despite the prevalence of theism in the country. Their influence on politics has been consistent with their mass, which is the way a democracy/representative republic is supposed to work.

Your comparison of the "dangers" of the two groups is vastly overstated.




PatrickG38 -> RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism (10/26/2010 12:45:16 PM)

I think you greatly overestimate the change brought about by the elimination of mandatory pledge reciting; it is zero or close to it. Mumbling something in class never did much to alter student’s attitude and besides, the pledge was not made voluntary by atheists opposed to it, but by very religious Jehovah's Witnesses who thought swearing allegiance to cloth (or anything but god) was blasphemous. See West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette




PatrickG38 -> RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism (10/26/2010 12:48:21 PM)

I think you greatly overestimate the change brought about by the elimination of mandatory pledge reciting; it is zero or close to it. Mumbling something in class never did much to alter student’s attitude and besides, the pledge was not made voluntary by atheists opposed to it, but by very religious Jehovah's Witnesses who thought swearing allegiance to cloth (or anything but god) was blasphemous. See West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette
quote:

I think you greatly overestimate the change brought about by the elimination of mandatory pledge reciting; it is zero or close to it. Mumbling something in class never did much to alter student’s attitude and besides, the pledge was not made voluntary by atheists opposed to it, but by very religious Jehovah's Witnesses who thought swearing allegiance to cloth (or anything but god) was blasphemous. See West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette




Kirata -> RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism (10/26/2010 1:04:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38

I would like to respond to the arguments offered by the OP and examine whether the equivalence between the religious fundamentalist and the atheist truly exist.

But, you are not responding to my post. I stated in the very first sentence that some people believe in God, some don't, and that's fine. I can certainly understand their reasons. My post was not about atheism per se, with which I have no quarrel. It was about what I have come to view, after hours of listening to talks and debates, as an ideology that goes far beyond simple atheism. Rather what I see is scientism, all dressed up in a bold new package being cleverly marketed as the "new" atheism -- improved to deliver whiter whites and blacker blacks, with no shades of gray.

K.




hertz -> RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism (10/26/2010 1:18:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38

So while strictly true that there is no mathematic formula proving or disproving god, the two sides hardly have equal arguments and the danger posed by one is substantial while the danger posed by the other is non-existent.


I don't believe you have proven this statement.




hertz -> RE: The Religious Right and the New Atheism (10/26/2010 1:23:55 PM)

You may be a Fundamentalist Atheist if...




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