quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

I wonder how many babies owe their lives to Scott Roeder.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I often find it interesting that a group of men will debate an issue that is so utterly feminine.

edited to clarify... this is directed at no one in particular.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

weavers wife and 14 year old were victims of a government sanctioned sniper attack equally as unwarranted.

I could continue with waco where the government murdered as in burned alive nearly 100 people over a fucking 200 dollar gun license.

Services at the end of a barrel of a gun gone steroids.

Terrorism by another name terrorism just the same.

Weavers wife was hit by a stray bullet that went through the door she was standing behind. His son was shot after shooting at a US agent. ( Hey Im in the UK and seem to have been able to find an official report, you could have done the same ) How do you compare this with some right wing religous nut job shooting a guy in cold blood in a church ?

quote:

Before the negotiators arrived at the cabin, an FBI HRT sniper, Lon Horiuchi, shot and wounded Randy Weaver in the back with the bullet exiting his right armpit, while he was lifting the latch on the shed to visit the body of his dead son.[44]

(The sniper testified at the later trial that he had put his crosshairs on Weaver's spine, but Weaver moved at the last second.) Then, as Weaver, his 16-year-old daughter Sara,[45] and Harris ran back toward the house, Horiuchi fired a second bullet, which passed through Vicki Weaver's head, killing her, and wounded Harris in the chest. Vicki Weaver was standing behind the door through which Harris was entering the house, holding their 10-month-old baby Elisheba[45] in her arms.[46] The Department of Justice Office of Professional Responsibility Ruby Ridge Task Force Report (June 10, 1994) stated in section I. Executive

Summary subhead B. Significant Findings that the second shot did not satisfy constitutional standards for legal use of deadly force.[47]

The OPR review also found the lack of a request to surrender was "inexcusable", since Harris and the two Weavers were running for cover without returning fire and were not an imminent threat. The task force also specifically blamed Horiuchi for firing through the door, not knowing whether someone was on the other side of it. While controversy exists as to who is responsible for approving the ROE that were being followed by the sniper, the task force also condemned the so-called "rules of engagement" allowing shots to be fired with no request for surrender.[44]
Both FBI HQ and the Site Commanders in Idaho re-evaluated the situation based on information they were receiving from US Marshals Hunt, Cooper and Roderick about what had happened on August 21. On about August 24, 1992, the fourth day of the siege on the Weaver family, FBI Deputy Assistant Director Danny Coulson wrote a memo:

OPR 004477
Something to Consider
1. Charge against Weaver is Bull Shit.
2. No one saw Weaver do any shooting.
3. Vicki has no charges against her.
4. Weaver's defense. He ran down the hill to see what dog was
barking at. Some guys in camys shot his dog.
Started shooting at him. Killed his son. Harris did the
shooting [of Degan]. He [Weaver] is in pretty strong legal position."[48]

On August 26, 1992, 10:53 a.m., the Rules of Engagement that had been in effect since the arrival of the HRT on August 22 were revoked.[49]
The stand-off was ultimately resolved by sympathetic civilian negotiators including Bo Gritz, Jack McLamb and Jackie Brown.[50][51] Harris surrendered on August 30 and Randy Weaver and his daughters surrendered the next day. Both Harris and Randy Weaver were arrested. Weaver's daughters were released to the custody of relatives, although some consideration was given to charging Sara, 16, as an adult.[52] Weaver was ultimately acquitted of all charges except missing his original court date and violating his bail conditions, for which he was sentenced to 18 months and fined $10,000. Credited with time served, Weaver spent an additional 4 months in prison. Harris was acquitted of all charges.
Defense counsel for Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris alleged throughout their 1993 trial that agents of the ATF, USMS, and FBI were themselves guilty of serious wrongdoing, leading the Department of Justice (DOJ) to create a "Ruby Ridge Task Force" which delivered a 542-page report on June 10, 1994 to the DOJ Office of Professional Responsibility (OPR). The report was never officially released, although a redacted version was circulated by Lexis Counsel Connect,[53] an information service for attorneys. Questions persisted about Ruby Ridge and the subsequent Waco Siege which involved the same agencies and many of the same officials. The Senate Subcommittee on Terrorism, Technology and Government Information held fourteen days of hearings, ending on October 19, 1995. The hearings were broadcast on CSPAN and confirmed many of the questions raised by the DOJ OPR Report.[54]
Both the internal 1994 Ruby Ridge Task Force Report and the public 1995 Senate subcommittee report on Ruby Ridge criticized the rules of engagement as unconstitutional. A 1995 GAO report on use of force by federal law enforcement agencies stated: "In October 1995, Treasury and Justice adopted use of deadly force policies to standardize the various policies their component agencies had adopted over the years." The major change was the requirement of a reasonable belief of an "imminent" danger of death or serious physical injury, which brought all federal LEA deadly force policies in line with US Supreme Court rulings (Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1, 18 (1985) and Graham v. Connor, 490 U.S. 386 (1989)) that applied to state and local LE agencies.[55]
Timothy McVeigh cited the Ruby Ridge and Waco incidents as motivation for the Oklahoma City bombing of April 19, 1995.[56]
The surviving members of the Weaver family filed a wrongful death suit.

To avoid trial and a possibly higher settlement, the federal government awarded Randy Weaver a $100,000 settlement and his three daughters $1 million each in August 1995.

In the out-of-court settlement the government did not admit to any wrong-doing in the deaths of Sammy and Vicki Weaver.
FBI director Louis Freeh disciplined or proposed discipline for twelve FBI employees over their handling of the incident and the later prosecution of Randy Weaver and Harris. He described it before the U.S. Senate hearing investigating the incident as "synonymous with the exaggerated application of federal law enforcement" and stated "law enforcement overreacted at Ruby Ridge."[57]
A CBS mini-series about the Ruby Ridge incident, entitled Ruby Ridge: An American Tragedy, aired on May 19 and May 21, 1996. It was based on the book Every Knee Shall Bow by reporter Jess Walter and starred Laura Dern as Vicki, Kirsten Dunst as Sara and Randy Quaid as Randy.[1] The TV series was edited together in movie form as The Siege at Ruby Ridge.[58]
[/link][link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge#cite_note-57]
FBI HRT sniper Lon Horiuchi was indicted for manslaughter in 1997 by the Boundary County, Idaho prosecutor just prior to expiration of the statute of limitations for the crime of manslaughter, but the trial was removed to federal court and was quickly dismissed on grounds of sovereign immunity.[59] (You know the Sovereign citizen crap JLF1691 always ridicules!)  Kevin Harris was also indicted for the first-degree murder of DUSM Bill Degan; the charge was dismissed on grounds of double jeopardy because he had been acquitted in the federal criminal trial on the same charge in 1993.[60]

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

a man's permission to obtain an abortion was over a long time ago, rule. you certainly dont need our permission to obtain a snip snip.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I often find it interesting that a group of men will debate an issue that is so utterly feminine.

edited to clarify... this is directed at no one in particular.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I often find it interesting that a group of men will debate an issue that is so utterly feminine.

edited to clarify... this is directed at no one in particular.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Once again, you are adorable! Keep thinking its all about you, dear.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Oh i am never afraid of it cracking when i look, willbe. But nice of you to insinuate im ugly.

When you, as a man, have to deal with the issues of pregnancy... swollen feet, high blood pressure, milk coming in sometimes months before delivery, back aches, breast pains... oh the list goes on and on... then you can tell me with certainty its no longer a feminine issue.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I often find it interesting that a group of men will debate an issue that is so utterly feminine.

edited to clarify... this is directed at no one in particular.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

no i dont. you see it as murder. i do not.

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ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

At what point does it become murder?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

a man's permission to obtain an abortion was over a long time ago, rule. you certainly dont need our permission to obtain a snip snip.