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How a sub should tell her Dom He is wrong? - 4/26/2006 5:52:02 PM   
kittycurious


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How would an obedient submissive go about telling her Dom that He is factually wrong about a rather important subject?

A few months ago i twice politely informed my Dom of a factual error for a trip & gave him the correct information, but His other submissive (who was most affected by this factual error) wrongly insisted there was no error; being an obedient submissive, i complied with my Dom's assertation that i was wrong, the other sub was correct, and i needed to not discuss it any further. The trip has now come and gone, the factual error was proven correct and has deeply affected this other submissive, and now i feel guilty that i didn't stand by my knowledge and instead let the other submissive suffer for fear of our Dominant's disapproval.

In your opinion, how would a submissive best go about telling her Dominant that he is wrong and insuring that errors like the one described above do not occur?

kittycurious
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RE: How a sub should tell her Dom He is wrong? - 4/26/2006 5:56:40 PM   
ladylexington


Posts: 117
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I would have been fine with the approach you described above. Once a submissive gives me all the information available to him/her, I am responsible for the decision and the results of that decision.


_____________________________

If you must gamble your lives sexually, don't play a lone hand too much. -- Mark Twain

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RE: How a sub should tell her Dom He is wrong? - 4/26/2006 6:04:37 PM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
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What sort of advice are you looking for exactly?

How to tell a dominant who is either too clueless, careless, or cloddish to deal with a mistake?

How to get away with saying "I told you so" without being beaten?

Or something else entirely?

(in reply to ladylexington)
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RE: How a sub should tell her Dom He is wrong? - 4/26/2006 6:13:27 PM   
sweetnsensual200


Posts: 31
Joined: 3/23/2005
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you did everything you could do short of yelling in His ear "Hey, You're wrong, i'm right, look right here!"  but you asked for politeness and you were polite.  Doms are wrong sometimes.  Just because a person is a Dom doesn't make Him inhuman and unable to make a mistake.  i know everyone probably knows that but i figured i should probably say that just in case.  i'm not accusing your Dom of being wrong...even if He kinda was...but i am saying that as your Dom, He really should consider listening to you a little more.  So He had two subs saying two different things?  Why not check the information Himself?  you have absolutely NO reason to feel guilty.  in my opinion, it was his responsibility to check things, especially if the trip is THAT important.  A Dom's submissive(s) is His responsibility and if the other sub suffered because of Him, then it's time for Him to step up and take responsibility...if the situation is truly how you described.  Besides, you were doing exactly what He said to do: not discuss it further.  Shouldn't feel guilty for following an order (because it seems like it's important to you). 

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RE: How a sub should tell her Dom He is wrong? - 4/26/2006 6:23:52 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Other than bringing out paperwork that shows calculations, there's really nothing else to be done.

But since you're still feeling so affected by it now, you all need to sit down and discuss it.  You did not fail to stand by your knowledge, you gave the knowledge you felt was best and then let him make the decision.  Who knows- you COULD have been wrong.  It just so happens that in this case you were not.

Be grateful that it wasn't a more serious issue than it was and that hopefully your dom has learned from this.  Talk it out with them and see if they have any additional information or advice to give, but otherwise, seems like you handled it appropriately.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: How a sub should tell her Dom He is wrong? - 4/26/2006 6:50:11 PM   
MsVoyeringmama


Posts: 33
Joined: 10/1/2004
Status: offline
As a Domme, In general this is what I tell any 1 in the lifestyle.
Just because some like being called Goddess doesn’t mean they are one. We’re human, and as a human, I’ll make mistakes. These could range from an error in etiquette to a kidney shot to hurting my sub’s feelings. I have learned to apologize - and mean it. --
THIS NEXT, I KEEP A COPY ON THE WALL.. DONT KNOW IF IT HELPS- BUT IT WILL FOR SOME :)







Rules for Dominants to remember:

Rules for Submissives to learn/understand


1

Be Patient
Until you enter into a contract with a submissive, you have no more right to order him/her around than does anyone else. Give your bottom time to get to know you and what you like. Finesse and subtlety are major elements of dominance. Similarly, strength and gentleness go hand in hand. The sensitivity and awareness (or lack thereof) that you show in the real world is likely to be repeated in the playroom.

Be Patient
A potential top will let you know if she or he is interested in you or not. Keep in mind that your purpose as a submissive is to serve and to satisfy someone who will take into consideration the realization of your fantasies. Don't expect your top to be able to turn on like a light switch. The timing must be right for both of you.


2

Be Humble
You may be God's/Goddess' gift to the world, but no one needs to hear it or wants to hear it. You will have ample opportunities to show how good you are - and plenty of opportunities to make a fool of yourself. No matter what you claim, the “real you” will show through in a scene. Don¹t set yourself up for a failure by developing expectations that you know you can never reach.

Be Humble
You may be God's or Goddess' gift to the world and the most sought after prize in town, but no one needs to hear it or wants to hear it. You will have ample opportunity to show how good you are. No matter what you claim, the "real you" will show through in a scene. Don't set yourself up for failure by developing expectations that you know you and your top can never reach.


3

Be Open
Although the top is classically considered to be the teacher in SM, you can always learn from your bottom, no matter how inexperienced. Be willing to learn from other dominants that may have a totally different perspective from yours. Try to approach by-now-familiar trips with an attitude of wonderment and discovery. Be aware that everyone has her or his own personal style.

Be Open
You can learn something about SM and about yourself from everyone into the scene, no matter how experienced or inexperienced they are, or how dominant or submissive they are. SM is a very personal art, and an "I already know it all" attitude will make you miss valuable SM lessons and experiences, and ignore potentially valuable SM friends.


4

Communicate
You are responsible for finding out basic, essential information about the people you play with, such as experience, limits, likes and dislikes, and health information. Playing SM without this knowledge is like Russian Roulette. Talk about your headspace and you review of SM with your bottom, so that any uncertainties can be dealt with before you start playing. Clearly spell out roles, rules, limits and contracts. Do not take for granted that your bottom instinctively knows the ground rules.

Communicate
Verbalization is necessary, but at the appropriate time and in the appropriate way. Your top needs to know basic information about you, such as experiences, fantasies, health concerns, and turn-offs. But -unless it's an emergency - wait until your top asks. Don't expect your dominant to be a mind reader instinctively knows your needs, wants, and limits. Your cooperation will enhance the scene for both of you.


5

Be Honest
If you lack experience in an area that your bottom would like to experiment with, be honest about it. Your partner has a right to know that. Be honest with yourself and take your submissive only to those levels at which you are completely in control of the situation. Safety should always be the first concern, taking priority over how hot a particular scene is.

Be Honest
Don't be afraid to share your needs and fantasies. Your dominant expects it. Honesty about your wants, health concerns, and turn-offs is essential to a good scene. Lying or being less than candid can only lead to problems, as the top will base the scene on inaccurate information. Besides causing problems, it can be dangerous.


6

Be Sensitive
There¹s a very fine line between a sensitive, caring dominant and a self-righteous, insensitive overbearing clod. Your scene should be a creative synthesis of you needs and fantasies, and your bottoms needs and fantasies. Although, on the surface, your submissive is serving you, what actually is happening is that dominant and submissive are serving each other. Earn the complete trust of your submissive and never violate or even threaten to violate that trust. His or her submission is a gift to you. Use it appropriately.

Be Vulnerable
Your scene is a two-way street. It is not just the physical realization of your prior fantasies. If you want to limit your experience to certain physical and psychological stimulation, then contract with your top ahead of time. But don't always expect your top to be a puppet in a fantasy play you've written in your head. It's far better to let your top surprise you, to extend your limits, to take you to places you're never been before. When you trust your top completely, let her or him know it, and let him or her guide you into new fantasies.


7

Be Realistic
End the scene with the bottom wanting more, not wishing there had been less. Remember that power, control, and sensitivity are the keys, no just the intensity of the stimulation. Be clear about what is fantasy, and has little to do with what works in practice. Your favorite porno picture books may be stimulating in themselves, but don¹t try to imitate them to the last detail.

Be Realistic
Your dominant is human, and even the most experienced tops have moments of awkwardness and indecision. Don't call attention to what you perceive as a lapse. Know the difference between reality and the fantasy world you see in books and magazines. Few tops are rich enough to afford a large dungeon with a lavish layout of equipment...Your top's equipment is expensive - respect it and don't abuse it.


8

Be Really Dominant
Submissives are looking for someone who will take over their body and mind, not just for brute strength. Real people are wanted, not just cardboard images from ads or stereotypes. Your dominance enhances you whole existence. It does not cover up or substitute for other areas of your life - it is you. Make your submissive fall in love with you, and expect them to give themselves up to you totally. Follow up on rules, expect obedience, and punish appropriately when it is called for. Don¹t shirk your responsibility to your bottom or to your sister/fellow tops. Be dependable and expect dependability. You have agreed to take the dominant role - now take it!

Be Really Submissive
This is the whole point. Let your dominant take you over completely. Don't coach or second guess or be critical of your top. Exchange information on your special needs before the scene starts, but once it starts be quiet! If you insist on running a scene to your own specifications, then you should try being a top. You have agreed to limitations of your own power. Stay within those limitations. Respect and obey your top and expect punishment if you don't. Accept it gracefully and cheerfully. Your top has many things to be concerned with, including your safety and what turns you on. Be loyal and dependable and enjoy your role.


9

Be Healthy
Like any strenuous activity, SM requires that its participants be in top physical and emotional health. Many factors, including the amount you sleep, your eating habits, your alcohol and drug intake affect your performance and endurance during a scene. Don¹t attempt to do SM when your physical or emotional energy is low. As a dominant you have a special responsibility to be in control of yourself and on top of the scene. An attitude of ³drugs and alcohol don¹t affect me that much...I can do it anyway² violates your submissive¹s trust in you and can be dangerous. If you don¹t want to accept the responsibilities, you shouldn¹t be playing the game!

Be Healthy
SM, like any strenuous activity, requires that its participants - both active and passive - be in top physical and emotional health. The amount you sleep, your eating habits, your alcohol and drug intake, and everyday stress affect your response and endurance during a scene. Your dominant needs to know when your physical or emotional energy is low. No matter how tempting a scene sounds, an "I want it all now" attitude when you aren't able to give your all will leave both of you feeling let down. You serve your dominant and yourself by staying healthy.


10

Have Fun
After all; sex is all about having a good time. You have earned, and you are entitled to the unique, intense pleasures, which come from responsible, creative SM play.

Have Fun
After all; sex is all about having a good time. You have earned and you are entitled to the unique, intense pleasure, which comes from responsible, creative SM play.

 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: How a sub should tell her Dom He is wrong? - 4/26/2006 6:53:04 PM   
Lordandmaster


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"Sir, may I speak?  This is important."

"Yes."

"Sir, you are wrong about such-and-such.  These are the reasons..."

It's your DUTY to tell your dom when he's wrong.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittycurious

How would an obedient submissive go about telling her Dom that He is factually wrong about a rather important subject?

(in reply to kittycurious)
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RE: How a sub should tell her Dom He is wrong? - 4/26/2006 7:12:23 PM   
hidemyeyes


Posts: 39
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Thank you so much  MsVoyeringmama... *eagerly watching her printer* i haven't picked up any bad habits yet, i hope, but at the same time, i havent had any training either and i am always on the lookout for anything that will serve as a reminder of my place.
_________________________________________
hidemyeyes

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RE: How a sub should tell her Dom He is wrong? - 4/26/2006 7:42:09 PM   
unquenchable


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Seems you told him just fine.  The fact that he chose not to listen was his error not yours. 

We all make mistakes, even Dominants.  Don't beat yourself up about it and don't think of it as a failure.

un-----------

(in reply to kittycurious)
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RE: How a sub should tell her Dom He is wrong? - 4/26/2006 8:41:40 PM   
mathiasdomm


Posts: 71
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Status: offline
It's hard to speak up against an authority figure.  But you've both committed yourself to  a learning process.  Both of you have the responsibility to uphold that part of the relationship (the part that makes us better, and more fulfilled people).  This sounds like you two (or three) need to have a sit down.  Explain the situation, explain that you're conflicted and aren't sure of your role here and don't want to miss an opportunity to better your quality of service.  Your Master will probably elaborate his feelings on when and how to approach him in similar situations that might arise in the future.  So talk.  You'll get it off your chest and you'll both learn more about each other.

-m 

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RE: How a sub should tell her Dom He is wrong? - 4/26/2006 11:13:24 PM   
lilriv


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If you don't mind me asking, how does your Dom react when you tell him he's wrong? And how does he react when other people tell him he's wrong? You shouldn't be afraid to correct your master. Ever. Like other's have said, a strong sub/dom relationship is built on honesty and communication, and if you feel like you can't openly communicate with him, then the fault lies not with you but with him. Otherwise, you seriously run the risk of your relationship turning into something much less like BDSM and more like abuse.

(in reply to kittycurious)
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RE: How a sub should tell her Dom He is wrong? - 4/27/2006 12:46:42 AM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline
If I thnk Master is wrong about something, I simply tell him, no big drama's or dilemma's over it. If he takes what I say into consideration, cool, if he doesnt, I submit to his decision not to...I dont feel guilty at all by not pressing the subject.

_____________________________

Freedom in Bondage

Different Strokes for Different Folks

"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

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RE: How a sub should tell her Dom He is wrong? - 4/27/2006 12:51:50 AM   
Wulfchyld


Posts: 2618
Joined: 12/7/2005
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With a whip and a chair of course. It’s always helpful if there is another slave with you when you do it. Just make sure the other slave is slower than you.
 
Smiling
Loki

_____________________________

Loki, forum god of Mischief

Submission is not a gift... it is plunder!
Where there is a whip, there is a way!
Dom/mes of a feather, beat the f*ck out of slaves together


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RE: How a sub should tell her Dom He is wrong? - 4/27/2006 2:45:45 AM   
JoeT2000


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Joined: 4/4/2006
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D/s is surely a relationship based on respect. That said, people are also human, and there are times when anyone makes a mistake. Most of us realise that admitting a mistake, and correcting it, isn't a sign of weakness, but a sign of strength.

Communication is one of the most important aspects of any relationship, D/s or otherwise, if not THE most important. The best of Doms, will have those off days when they may not be reasonable (this is true of subs too). If it is a minor matter, and a rare occurance, leave it. If it is important to you, which it clearly is, and he hasn't listened, have you thought of writing to him and explaining.

Some Doms are egotists who "need" a submissive to tell them they are right, be devoted, show them respect, and "fluff their feathers" because they are full of self doubt which is why they react badly to being told they are wrong. They miss the point that you should only be told you're right when you are and you earn respect. Personally, I'd avoid this type.

MaVoyeringMama... I love your rules. Are they copywritten or can I pinch them. luckyalbatross... I've seen you post on a number of occasions... each time that signature, find stable partners, not a stable of partners. Oh so true, and such sense.

Joe

A collaring is not a ritual or an end, it is a long slow and intricate dance together, and nothing matters more than your own sense of balance, and choice of partner.


< Message edited by JoeT2000 -- 4/27/2006 2:52:29 AM >

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RE: How a sub should tell her Dom He is wrong? - 4/27/2006 3:18:27 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
With respect, accurate, your reasons and support the information.... I expect a slave in my collar to tell me if I am wrong as I expect Neets to do the same... Unlike the popular misconception of some Domminates of either gender are neither Gods/Goddesses nor infalable! We are all human and just as prone to mistakes as anyone else..... 

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: How a sub should tell her Dom He is wrong? - 4/27/2006 6:34:12 AM   
MrDiscipline44


Posts: 1776
Joined: 1/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittycurious

How would an obedient submissive go about telling her Dom that He is factually wrong about a rather important subject?

A few months ago i twice politely informed my Dom of a factual error for a trip & gave him the correct information, but His other submissive (who was most affected by this factual error) wrongly insisted there was no error; being an obedient submissive, i complied with my Dom's assertation that i was wrong, the other sub was correct, and i needed to not discuss it any further. The trip has now come and gone, the factual error was proven correct and has deeply affected this other submissive, and now i feel guilty that i didn't stand by my knowledge and instead let the other submissive suffer for fear of our Dominant's disapproval.

In your opinion, how would a submissive best go about telling her Dominant that he is wrong and insuring that errors like the one described above do not occur?

kittycurious

IMO, as long as you did it with respect and courtesy, you did just fine. Sometimes, no matter what you say or do, the other person just has to learn on their own.

_____________________________

If you love somebody, you have to be willing to break them.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Have you slapped your slave today?

(in reply to kittycurious)
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RE: How a sub should tell her Dom He is wrong? - 4/27/2006 6:56:11 AM   
MHOO314


Posts: 3628
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline
I can tell you from experience, there are indeed right ways and wrong ways--just because One is a dominant does not mean they are superhuman, we all make mistakes, get misinformation etc. We are after all painfully human--and its harder when there are other slaves vying for the same hmmm "attention"--so from that perspective I cannot speak--but, there are ways to bring it to their attention--and I think what you did was quite fine, I question when a Dominant cannot be told there is an error---that to Me is not the best use of a submissive--for they have wisdom and knowledge too. What you do not want to do is call your Dominant out in a public environment--(in front of other slaves or other people for that matter)--and certainly, not attack or berate the Dominant for the error or mistake.
 
But as ladylexington said, once I have all the information, the results of the decision are now Mine and I am responsible for the consequences.

_____________________________

SLUTS: Southern Ladies Under Tremendous Stress...

Mistress Hathor


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RE: How a sub should tell her Dom He is wrong? - 4/27/2006 7:49:58 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittycurious

How would an obedient submissive go about telling her Dom that He is factually wrong about a rather important subject?

A few months ago i twice politely informed my Dom of a factual error for a trip & gave him the correct information, but His other submissive (who was most affected by this factual error) wrongly insisted there was no error; being an obedient submissive, i complied with my Dom's assertation that i was wrong, the other sub was correct, and i needed to not discuss it any further. The trip has now come and gone, the factual error was proven correct and has deeply affected this other submissive, and now i feel guilty that i didn't stand by my knowledge and instead let the other submissive suffer for fear of our Dominant's disapproval.

In your opinion, how would a submissive best go about telling her Dominant that he is wrong and insuring that errors like the one described above do not occur?

kittycurious


ok first of all... You already informed your Dom that he was wrong.  You gave him the correct information.  His response was that your Dom asserted that you where wrong and he agreed with the other sub.  Now fast forward..... "The factual error was proven correct" ...

Frankly, your asking an opinion for something you already did.... so what is it your really wanting to achieve here.  You told him he was wrong and was proven correct by it! 

You really only give two things beyond telling him he is wrong (which you already did)... Your guilty for not standing your ground and allowing an error to occur and secondly you want to insure the error doesn't happen again.

First... why should you feel guilty for obeying Him!!!  did you not give him the information? Was it not his descision?  Do you expect him to be perfect?  He will make mistakes with his decisions, even when you give him what you consider the right information that would prevent a mistake.  It is his cross to carry... His Mistake.. you did what you should of done.. now it's his responsibility to carry the mistake!  I wonder.... have you lost respect for him?  Was his mistake that obvious to you that you felt it was avoidable?  Did you feel your opinion was dimissed by both Him and his other submissive?  Are you looking for validation that you where RIGHT!!?, and want them to admit it too you?  My gut tells me you better look deeper into your feelings here.  There is no reason for you to feel guilty!  Are there other thoughts here that your not sharing that is causing Guilt... Like maybe alittle anger that you where right and they could see it!  Maybe your felling guilty because your disappointed with him making the error in the first place.... which leads to your second thing.

You want to ensure it doesn't happen again.  Seems to me your carrying this mistake pretty strongly.  Seems to me your not being completely open of your feelings with regards to this mistake.  Why do you want to ensure it never happens again.... what is it you actually want to ensure.... I think this whole issue is just the tip of the iceberg... you have more underlying the issue that your sharing here.... first you need to be open about to yourself.... and then your Dom.  My gut tells me you lost Respect for him... not just because of the mistake... but because he dismissed your opinion and the factual information you gave him.  What is it you really want to ensure?  That he gives more creditiblity to your opinions and judgements?  That he doesn't make what was a stupid mistake?  What is your feeling of the mistake in the first place?  Did you think it was a stupid one?  Obviously it was avoidable?  but was it obvious before the fact?  How did you really feel when he carried on with making the mistake?

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 4/27/2006 7:54:06 AM >


_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: How a sub should tell her Dom He is wrong? - 4/27/2006 9:28:28 AM   
JohnWarren


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From: Delray Beach, FL
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You did the right thing.  You told about the error in what I assume was a respectful manner.  After that everything was in the dom's hands and the results are completely his to own.

One time a few years ago, Libby and I were on a nationwide interview show and I made the mistake of leaving the word "not" out of a sentence.  She immediately spoke up and let me know about my slip so I could correct it in the next breath. 

We saw it as her duty to "cover my back."

It's amazing how many people were horrified that I "took it" and then also thanked her.

She's my most valued possession largely because of her lively intellect.

_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

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RE: How a sub should tell her Dom He is wrong? - 4/27/2006 10:14:26 AM   
LL1aintbehavin


Posts: 104
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it is difficult to let your Dom or Master know that they are wrong about something, but it is something that is very important.  one of the first requirements that my Dom insisted on was that i would be willing to fight with him on any issue that i felt strongly about, as He feels that if i feel strong enough to contradict him i must have reasons to back it up.
i have approached him with issues that i see a problem with, respectfully of course, but if after i give him all of my reasons and fears, and he decides to go his route anyhow, then it is out of my hands.
when it turns out his decision was wrong, there is no "i told you so", but together we work on correcting it.
we can only let them know when we see a problem, and then it is in their hands to do what they desire.
i don't see where you have any guilt in this as you were forthcoming to them both, but were ignored.
aintbehavin

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