RE: Israel's deputy PM threatened with arrest for war crimes

RE: Israel's deputy PM threatened with arrest for war crimes (Full Version)

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tweakabelle -> RE: Israel's deputy PM threatened with arrest for war crimes (11/11/2010 4:00:01 AM)
Really people, what good is finger pointing and the self perpetuating cycle of blame and counter-blame? It's as pointless as the aerial bombing - rocket launching - ground invasion - racket launching cycle that no one seems able to halt. Nor do I discern any great interest on any side in halting the cycle of violence. Abbas of the Palestinian Authority is the person with the greatest degree of commitment to negotiating a peaceful outcome as far as i can see. Sadly Abbas's stance is most likely due to the probability that, without some kind of credible peace deal, he faces political oblivion. Netanyahu's position, as Anaxagoras has perhaps unwittingly outlined, effectively makes the entire peace process hostage to his personal political ambitions (post #85). Both sides in this conflict have the blood of innocents on their hands, by the bucketload. I for one see no reason why Israeli Defence Force's (IDF) pilots, and the people who gave the orders who drop 1-ton bombs into a residential apartment block in Gaza are any different to suicide bombers. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2148548.stm) I see no reason to hold the Sharons of this world in greater regard than Hamas or Islamic Jihad. Sharon was found by an official Israeli inquiry into the Sabra and Shatila massacres, to be "indirectly responsible" for the apprx. 2,000 civilian casualties. Almost all neutral observers hold him directly responsible. This is just one incident on a long list going back several decades that Sharon is responsible for ...... He inhabits the same moral cesspit as the organisers of suicide bombings. Both sides seem to me to show a similar level of contempt for human life. Both sides deploy terrorist tactics where ever and whenever it suits them. Both are committing, and have long histories of committing war crimes in my view. Both sides should be in the dock of the International Court at The Hague answering war crimes charges and hopefully enjoying long prison sentences thereafter. Disgusting as all this is, it brings us no closer to a solution. Yet the interminable cycle of accusation and counter accusation results in the butchers on both sides setting the agenda. And those who choose to act as apologists for these atrocities effectively ensure that the extremists' agendas stay in foreground and that any chance of peace recedes into a distant background. So please people, let's stop pretending that 'my side' is whiter than white and the 'other side' is blacker than black. Both are as bad as the other. Let's choose instead to focus on ways that peace can be brought about, that ordinary people on both sides can live ordinary lives and that the butchers and extremists on both sides are taken out of the equation, and put where they belong.

MasterNJ20 -> RE: Israel's deputy PM threatened with arrest for war crimes (11/11/2010 4:32:11 AM)
It says you were in reply to me, if you were then my reply to you (post 113) are my reasoning for Jerusalem and Hebron. I understand Israel is not guiltless which is why I said earlier that equal land area and a large sum of money and supplies should be paid. It is just because of those specifics that I would like to see those pieces of land end up on Israel's side of the border. My replies to Hertz is a matter of fact. I asked for one time where Palestinians honored a peace agreement that was broken by Israel and his example was simply wrong. But as I'll explain I don't really blame the Palestinians for it. I think the 2000 camp David accords were good, however these were broken because radical priests were spreading jihadist ideals while they were going on. As I've also said, I believe pressure from other Arab nations (politically, socially, or even just sending their own men in and staging as Palestinians) is the biggest blame. If we put the Israel-Palestine issue in a vacuum and had the people and leaders separate from the rest of the world for a year I think there would be peace, honestly.

Anaxagoras -> RE: Israel's deputy PM threatened with arrest for war crimes (11/11/2010 6:30:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Really people, what good is finger pointing and the self perpetuating cycle of blame and counter-blame? It's as pointless as the aerial bombing - rocket launching - ground invasion - racket launching cycle that no one seems able to halt. Nor do I discern any great interest on any side in halting the cycle of violence. With respect I have to say that even in the post I quoted where you acknowledge terrorism on the Palestinian side, you still appear to be placing the greater weight of blame on Israel whilst criticising more forcefully those who support Israel than those that oppose it. Let me say nothing internationally would please me more than seeing a genuine sustainable peace between Israel and the Palestinians. Considering the evidence I just don’t think it possible. In comparison to the North of Ireland, there is an infinitely greater level of dehumanisation going on to allow real peace. quote: Abbas of the Palestinian Authority is the person with the greatest degree of commitment to negotiating a peaceful outcome as far as i can see. Sadly Abbas's stance is most likely due to the probability that, without some kind of credible peace deal, he faces political oblivion. Netanyahu's position, as Anaxagoras has perhaps unwittingly outlined, effectively makes the entire peace process hostage to his personal political ambitions (post #85). I see no reason to hold the Sharons of this world in greater regard than Hamas or Islamic Jihad. Sharon was found by an official Israeli inquiry into the Sabra and Shatila massacres, to be "indirectly responsible" for the apprx. 2,000 civilian casualties. Almost all neutral observers hold him directly responsible. This is just one incident on a long list going back several decades that Sharon is responsible for ...... He inhabits the same moral cesspit as the organisers of suicide bombings. Both sides seem to me to show a similar level of contempt for human life. Both sides deploy terrorist tactics where ever and whenever it suits them. Both are committing, and have long histories of committing war crimes in my view. Both sides should be in the dock of the International Court at The Hague answering war crimes charges and hopefully enjoying long prison sentences thereafter. So please people, let's stop pretending that 'my side' is whiter than white and the 'other side' is blacker than black. Both are as bad as the other. Let's choose instead to focus on ways that peace can be brought about, that ordinary people on both sides can live ordinary lives and that the butchers and extremists on both sides are taken out of the equation, and put where they belong. Sharon may have been indirectly responsible (I don't know one way or the other) but he was not giving orders to the Christian Lebanese militia that committed the act. If they were allowed access it wasn't necessarily a given that they would massacre civilians on a large scale yet pro-Palestinian dialogue on that event places petty much absolute blame on Israel rather than the militia's involved. Even so his career was destroyed in Israel for two decades by Israeli anger at him. I would certainly see a contrast between him and Hamas/Hizbullah. He unilaterally withdrew from Gaza without any security pre-conditions. He did it as a gesture of good faith to the Palestinians to try to bring peace. People were astonished at this "hawk" and it cost him a lot politically but he had a stroke which stopped the process. It could be political ambition that stops Netanyahu but arguably it could also be pragmatism as I explained because his coalition government could simply collapse. Abbas is not really a peacemaker because he is far too weak and especially as he walked away without discussion from Olmert who gave him almost 100% of the territory Palestinians had demanded (more so than with the Camp David talks). My point as made in post 106 is that we have to have an honest dialogue on what is happening in the region before there can be a sensible peace deal. With so much propaganda (principally from the Palestinian side) having gone on for decades truth/fact and honest moral analysis of the conflict is needed to establish any potential route. I favour a peace process but only when it is possible. Having Hamas rule Gaza whilst they are gaining increasing power in the PA makes it essentially impossible. Israeli people have repeatedly voted for politicians with a pro-peace mandate going back to the early 1980's. Until there is a real spiritual change in Palestinianism I don't see a possible peace process. As I said before I hope I am wrong but this conflict will go on for many many decades with or without peace processes. There has to be a real change and acceptance in broad Palestinian society first. Abbas still allows mainstream incitement even on children's TV shows. It has to be remembered that this is more a pan-Arab conflict than a Palestinian one and other parties must be willing to make peace too.

tweakabelle -> RE: Israel's deputy PM threatened with arrest for war crimes (11/11/2010 6:35:04 AM)
here's an idea ... why not put resolution 242 to a referendum in Israel and in Palestine simultaneously? I'm confident there would be huge majorities in favour of it on both sides of the divide. Then the respective leaders would be not longer have the initiative .... they would be mandated by their peoples to talk and implement peace. Why, there might even be a prolonged outbreak of peace. I'd love to hear you view on this.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Israel's deputy PM threatened with arrest for war crimes (11/11/2010 9:40:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle here's an idea ... why not put resolution 242 to a referendum in Israel and in Palestine simultaneously? I'm confident there would be huge majorities in favour of it on both sides of the divide. Then the respective leaders would be not longer have the initiative .... they would be mandated by their peoples to talk and implement peace. Why, there might even be a prolonged outbreak of peace. I'd love to hear you view on this. Terrorists dont give a shit about "mandates" from the people. If they did there would be no terrorism. Israel would be attacked within a month of any accord that was reached as a result of the mandates.

hertz -> RE: Israel's deputy PM threatened with arrest for war crimes (11/11/2010 2:13:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterNJ20 In the agreement Israel stated that any single rocket would violate the cease fire. So no, I am not avoiding the point. By not prosecuting the oneseys and twoseys being fired into Israel, the Palestinian militants put their cease-fire violating tunnel as a perfectly legitimate target. That's your position and it is Israel's position. No doubt Anaxagoras would fully endorse this view. But I find myself looking at the actual figures and I just wonder how reasonable that position is. January 2008 - 136 Mortars and 241 Rockets fired into Gaza. October 2008 - 1 Mortar and 1 Rocket fired into Gaza. November 4 - Israel kills Hamas personnel inside Gaza leading to 241 Mortars and 361 Rockets being launched into Gaza. Israel has no interest in peace. It would sooner be in a state of perpetual war than engage in any sort of negotiation which might lead to it giving up territorial ambitions on the whole of Palestine.

MasterNJ20 -> RE: Israel's deputy PM threatened with arrest for war crimes (11/11/2010 6:13:54 PM)
The failure to prosecute any any of those illegally firing rockets was a clear violation of the cease fire. The build of those rockets later fired in november and december were clear violations of the cease fire. To not accept this is stupidity. 1 Hamas death to prevent yet another cease fire breaking action cannot be seen as worse than 1-2 rockets a month for 6 months. To then destroy an active currently firing mortar position can only be seen as self defense.

MasterNJ20 -> RE: Israel's deputy PM threatened with arrest for war crimes (11/11/2010 6:19:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle here's an idea ... why not put resolution 242 to a referendum in Israel and in Palestine simultaneously? I'm confident there would be huge majorities in favour of it on both sides of the divide. Then the respective leaders would be not longer have the initiative .... they would be mandated by their peoples to talk and implement peace. Why, there might even be a prolonged outbreak of peace. I'd love to hear you view on this. Were the people of both sides in a vacuum they might accept it. However I doubt the people of Palestine would accept it because Hamas is always present and they would feel fear of this. And I doubt Israeli's would accept it because every time they pull back their military from the Palestinian people they get attacked harder by Hamas. Take out the terrorist leaders from palestine, take out the influences of foreign terrorists and you get peace. I feel, however, Hamas might become very open to accepting Israel for peace and turning its shoulder on foreign terrorists, much to its credit. Hamas recently ratted out a huge cover up, citing that by "50 militants" killed in cast lead they meant "600-700 militants", and I give this admission as a huge step towards honesty for Hamas which will hopefully encourage Israel to open up "land for peace" again.

tweakabelle -> RE: Israel's deputy PM threatened with arrest for war crimes (11/12/2010 2:46:37 AM)
I am saddened by your reaction Master NJ 20 ..... It's always the other side's fault isn't it? Or is it? Those who point fingers at others often forget they have three fingers pointing at themselves. Please exercise some caution about calling for the removal of "terrorists" from the scene. After all Israel was founded by terrorists wasn't it? To wit, the Stern Gang, The Hagannah and Irgun. So if we are to really apply your call it would entail the removal of Israel from the region. Not what you want I am sure! As the Chinese say, be careful what you wish for. And really, no one outside of the Israeli Right and its ever dwindling number of supporters listens to its empty rhetoric about terrorists any more. Almost the entire world believes that Israeli intransigence, its refusal to cease colonising the West Bank, its refusal to withdraw from the Occupied Territories comprise the biggest obstacles to peace. After 40+ years of Occupation there are no excuses left. None. Israel has no intention of giving up the West Bank - we agree with Netanyahu when he asserts Israel's goal is to stay in the West Bank "in perpetuity". But the world will never allow it. Almost the entire world sees Israel's rhetoric about "terrorism" for precisely what it is - a subterfuge that allows it to delay and avoid a peace settlement while it increases its grip on the West Bank. Almost the entire world understands that the 'terrorism' Israel complains about is a direct result of Israeli dispossession of Palestinians from their homeland and its ongoing murderous Occupation. That doesn't mean ppl agree with it - it does mean ppl understand why it exists. Years ago i sympathised with the Israeli side. So did all my family and just about most ppl i knew. None of us do anymore - there have been too many massacres of Palestinians, the freeze on the settlements first promised by Israel in 1993 is still yet to happen. The few that did still hold some sympathies for Israel changed their minds after the last gruesome onslaught on Gaza. It was as near a re-enactment of the Warsaw Ghetto as i ever want to see. Even the Jewish lobby in the US is splitting as more and more ppl register their distaste and disgust at Israeli behaviour. Israeli intransigence is putting increasing strain on its US alliance. How much longer can it survive if it alienates its sole remaining friend? If you really have Israel's interests at heart, i urge you to reconsider. Intransigence can only end up in disastrous outcomes for Israel. It has been nice chatting with you all (yes even you Anaxagoras, i do hope you have learnt something!) This one is signing off permanently. Love to all

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Israel's deputy PM threatened with arrest for war crimes (11/12/2010 2:51:35 AM)
Almost the entire world is anti-semitic, so whats your point?

Anaxagoras -> RE: Israel's deputy PM threatened with arrest for war crimes (11/12/2010 7:47:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle If you really have Israel's interests at heart, i urge you to reconsider. Intransigence can only end up in disastrous outcomes for Israel. It has been nice chatting with you all (yes even you Anaxagoras, i do hope you have learnt something!) This one is signing off permanently. Tweakabelle I think you should take your own advice and ease off on talking down to those who disagree with you. I replied to very single one of your posts in depth and without resorting to insult. I said in a previous post that whilst telling everyone to move on from what you described as "finger pointing and the self perpetuating cycle of blame and counter-blame", you were simultaneously criticising those who were pro-Israel more so than those who are pro-Palestinian and here you repeat a quite a few pro-Palestinian distortions re. the conflict. Just two basic points in reference to your post. The IDF stated at least 709 casualties were combatants of 1200 in Gaza. That is actually a low kill rate for intensive fighting in dense civilian areas. Call it propaganda but even the data of casualties produced by aggressive anti-Israeli NGO, Palestinian Center for Human Rights, shows that demographically around 70% of Gazan’s killed were males of the most relevant age for combat (16 to 40). Yet pro-Palestinians continually misrepresent the demographics. This does not support claims of indiscriminate killing. The paramilitary Israeli forces that helped establish the state were actually established to defend Jewish communities from many murderous attacks by Arabs long before the establishment of the state, and they occasionally had some assistance from the British such as when they were trained to resist a Nazi invasion.

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