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Anaxagoras -> RE: Israel's deputy PM threatened with arrest for war crimes (11/7/2010 6:52:01 PM)
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I think it should be clear how dishonest Hertz and so many other pro-Palestinians are. They attack and defame Israel. Do they hate Israel – of course they do. Why would that be – we are not allowed to say on this forum. Do they care about other conflicts that are exponentially worse – no they don’t despite their protestations to the contrary when you challenge them for if they did Israel would only be one of many conflict issues they would be campaigning about. There are moderate pro-Palestinians who accept that Israel has a right to exist as a predominately Jewish state but most are hate-filled individuals who simply wish to see the nation destroyed. It is for this reason they focus on this issue to the exclusion of almost all other international issues and have no ability to see Israel’s perspective to even the slightest extent. It is also for this reason anyone cannot have an honest debate with them as I suggest we are seeing yet again with Hertz. They fabricate or twist the truth to their use which is to demonise so this should be seen as a hate movement. It is expected by their leaders that this strategy will eventually destroy Israel and it appears to be working. I appreciate few care about the conduct of these individuals like Hertz but if their motives are pure why then is their conduct so disingenuous?
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ORIGINAL: hertz
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ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
The level of debate on the pro-Palestinian side has become shockingly low since I last replied to Crazy.
Delicious use of irony there, Anaxagoras.
I was referring to instances where you actually lie on this thread and the examples below where you attempt to draw parallels with other instances of war crimes or crimes against humanity but they are not applicable for the reasons I gave.
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ORIGINAL: hertz
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ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
Perhaps throwing your political opponents off buildings, amongst other things like bodies of oppponents mysteriously washing up on the shores of Gaza, also qualifies as "state-sanctioned terrorism"?
Possibly. Certainly killing the opposition with white phosphorus munitions, occupying their land as if it were one's own, using their children as human shields, starving them out and attacking aid vessels would qualify.
So lets be clear about this. Hertz thinks it is "possibly" state sanctioned terrorism to destroy your opponents by chucking them off high buildings and murdering them in other contexts? Note however that Hertz then replies by principally attacking Israel - never is it conceded that terror organisations like Hamas are bad guys in their own right. Instead he cites what are by now traditional pro-Palestinian lies: “occupying their land as if it were one's own, using their children as human shields, starving them out and attacking aid vessels would qualify.” Firstly the claim Israel was using human shields was made by Amnesty in a report produced only a month after the war in Gaza which accused Israel of war crimes based on flimsy evidence, such as weapons found on streets, school playgrounds, hospitals and homes, which were the areas where thousands of Hamas’ rockets were also launched! Hamas has regularly boasted on their media about their use of the elderly, women and children as human shields – there are loads of clips on the Internet like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTu-AUE9ycs from their TV channel that prove this. The starvation of Gaza accusation was made a lot by pro-Palers until pictures of markets laden with food were displayed in the media so that’s an old discredited lie. Israel removed its settlements from Gaza so it is only too keen to get off this land but faced with the thread of Iran bringing in heavier weaponry as they have tried to do on a number of occasions forces the closure of Gaza. As bad as that is the priority of Israel is to protect their own citizens first and foremost while Hamas has the reins in Gaza. Pro-Palestinians go on about Hamas being democratically elected but say little about the effective coup where they took power by violence from Fatah the following year. Since then they have maintained a repressive regime which is the reason they are in conflict with the PA.
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ORIGINAL: hertz
Israel was quite happy about the arrangement when it was about hunting down members of the German Nazi party who were accused of war crimes. Suddenly, now their own murderous politicians are clearly in the frame, it doesn't seem such a good idea.
Double standard, or what?
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ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
This is essentially an equivalence drawn between the actions of the Thrid Reich and Israel. This is a very common pro-Palestinian sentiment where the effort is to demonise and in the long term destroy the sole Jewish state in existence. The Nazi's were not being hunted for war crimes but crimes against humanity due to their attempt to systematically destroy an entire people. Furthermore they were not members of any government when Israel was seeking them out.
Actually, it was somewhat simpler than that. Evidently not simple enough, though. I'll break it down for you. What was acceptable when it involved hunting Nazi war criminals for trial seems unacceptable when it involves arresting Israeli war criminals for trial. Why the double standard?
I beg to differ. Hertz is misrepresenting what he was responding to. This was MasterNJ20 in post 53 who was speaking in the context of government officials being arrested on foreign territory. It is not even remotely a double standard as the context in which such arrests occur are completely different. Nazi war criminals were by that time private citizens whose arrest would not impede Germany speaking with other states, and the arrest could not become a propagandistic bonanza for campaigners.
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ORIGINAL: hertz
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Question: Does that not imply that were this 1960, and Adolph Eichmann moved in next door to you, you'd be quite happy as long as he didn't play loud music? Or are you simply suggesting that members of foreign governments should be left in peace regardless of what they get up to?
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ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
Hertz compares Israel’s abduction of Eichmann "the architect of the Holocaust" with arrest warrants being issued in the UK against Israeli politicians! Again Eichmann was not a member of any government when he was captured by the Israeli’s. He was a high profile member of the Third Reich cited as committing crimes against humanity by other leading Nazi’s during the Nuremberg Trials as having done so. It is completely different to what is being tried on by pro-Palestinian activists in the UK and the reason Israel resorted to kidnapping in these cases is because the authorities in those countries refused to co-operate.
You're getting really good at missing the point.
Here is a good example of someone unable to argue and simply says “you are missing the point” repeatedly as he did in posts gone by on this thread. Firstly if I criticised the comment correctly according to the context in which it was made: it was obviously a comparison with the present situation where Israeli government ministers can face arrest. It is completely in keeping with the point to say the examples Hertz cites are misleading for their context is very different.
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ORIGINAL: hertz
It was good enough for Saddam. I'm damn sure it's good enough for Livni.
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ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
Saddam was charged with committing acts of genocide such as the use of chemical weapons in 1988 against the Kurds which killed 5,000 civilians at a go and crippled, maimed, disfigured at least 10,000 more. He was tried in the jurisdiction of his own country as he was handed over formally (legally) to the interm Iraqi government. To make out it was a mere show-trial is pretty sick. The comparison of Saddam with Livni who is understood to be a moderate leftist in Israeli politics and by all accounts a peace-maker is farcical but no more so than comparing Israel with the third Reich.
Missing the point again. I'm beginning to think you are doing it deliberately.
Hertz said in post 40 that he wasn’t worried about impartiality if it would get in the way of a hanging. In post 48 truckinslave replied by saying “I am so glad that our courts reject so thoroughly the above lynch-mob mentality. Why bother with your show trial?” to which Hertz replied by saying if it was good enough for Saddam it was good enough for Livni. Thus he was suggesting Saddam’s trial was a show trial which could make it somewhat illegitimate. He was also equating Saddam with Livni.
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ORIGINAL: hertz
Israel tends to ignore the status of foreigners and just execute them wherever they are if they are a nuisance.
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ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
Nothing more than an outright lie as is the suggestion Israel never tries its own politicians and soldiers. Israel was found guilty and imprisoned a number of its military over the years. True it doesn't do that as much as most pro-Palestinians would like but then all but some moderates would like to see Israel driven into the sea. All that matters though is that people like Anerin do believe the above because they want to, while people like myself aren't allowed to say it could be motivated by hatred.
Again, point utterly missed. What can I say?
It is plainly absurd to say that asserting that a simple factual assertion made by Hertz is a lie is missing the point. BTW it is perfectly legitimate to comment on the posts of others even if the substance of it is not always in keeping with the points they have made. As shown above however, I have not done so. It is only unfair to misrepresent what they are saying or trying to say, which I have not done either.
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