New Reublican Governor's cut jobs as first act. Why? (Full Version)

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DomKen -> New Reublican Governor's cut jobs as first act. Why? (11/6/2010 5:23:46 PM)

The Governors-elect of Ohio and Wisconsin have vowed to kill federally funded passenger train projects in their states. High speed passenger rail works very well in other places but the GOP resists building the infrastructure to allow it to succeed here. In Ohio there is no passenger rail service of any kind connecting the major cities.

http://www.channel3000.com/news/25635287/detail.html
http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20101103/NEWS0108/11040330/1055/NEWS/Kasich-Passenger-rail-dead-




Trekkie -> RE: New Reublican Governor's cut jobs as first act. Why? (11/6/2010 5:27:38 PM)

quote:

New Reublican Governor's cut jobs as first act. Why?


(Because a Democrat will get credit for them.  Don't you know anything?) 



subrob1967 -> RE: New Reublican Governor's cut jobs as first act. Why? (11/6/2010 5:32:13 PM)

Because Ohio is running 8 Billion in the red, therefore he cut a 400 Million, public works project.



FullCircle -> RE: New Reublican Governor's cut jobs as first act. Why? (11/6/2010 5:36:36 PM)

400 Million won't make much of a dent in 8 billion but perhaps being better connected would lead to more investment and tax raising opportunity from outside. No forward thinking.

What happened to the saying "You've got to speculate to accumulate" or does that only apply to the private sector?

It's the same here the conservatives are very 'glass half empty' kinds of people, no optimism for the future and selling people short rather than backing them.



servantforuse -> RE: New Reublican Governor's cut jobs as first act. Why? (11/6/2010 5:44:37 PM)

Incumbant WI governor Scott Walker ( R ) is putting the brakes on a train that will go 65 miles from Milwaukee to Madison. Cost for the train, 810 million dollars. Once it is built the annual operating cost which will be subsidised by the tax payers is estimated to be 8 to 10 million per year.. Number of full time employees needed to operate this train, 55. This train would be a boondogle and stopping it is the main reason he was elected.



FullCircle -> RE: New Reublican Governor's cut jobs as first act. Why? (11/6/2010 5:49:23 PM)

Well job done then...so what is he going to do with the rest of his time.

I assume when these things are planned there is a cost/benefit exercise done?



servantforuse -> RE: New Reublican Governor's cut jobs as first act. Why? (11/6/2010 5:54:44 PM)

Cost/Benefit ? Lets see, a train that costs close to a billion dollars to build to employ 55 people ? Add in the number of people that will actually be on this train. You do the math. I can drive round trip from Milwaukee to Madison for about $25.00. Cost of the train ticket is estimated to be a little over $60.00. A boondogle that no one will ride.



xBullx -> RE: New Reublican Governor's cut jobs as first act. Why? (11/6/2010 6:04:35 PM)

Hey Ken,

I lived in Germany when I was in the service, I think an improved rail service in our country is a must......When it's more affordable. Sadly, I'm not convinced that money is the main reason they are wanting to cut this project since it is an Obama pet project.

I would love to see the Government explore a private alternative (at least to some degree, somewhat like has been done with wind energy) to assist in the cost of this project. I really think some free thinking business types could make this more cost effective, efficient and job creating. The Fed can regulate it for safety and help with loans that can be repaid to the tax payer, with interest. We have to use our brain power to build this country as our ancestors did or just regulate ourselves to being disappointments to their hopes and dreams. The Government can, through leadership and directive, promote growth, protect our national interests and not have to actually be the project doers.

Ken we really need to cut spending....desperately. And I myself will be watching these new so called Republican spend thrifts to see if they are indeed just that.

Bull's new motto, well it's old, but needs to be made heard again....."Balanced Budget Amendment!!!!"



FullCircle -> RE: New Reublican Governor's cut jobs as first act. Why? (11/6/2010 6:19:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse
Cost/Benefit ? Lets see, a train that costs close to a billion dollars to build to employ 55 people ? Add in the number of people that will actually be on this train. You do the math. I can drive round trip from Milwaukee to Madison for about $25.00. Cost of the train ticket is estimated to be a little over $60.00. A boondogle that no one will ride.

Not everyone has a car, I can drive to City of London in under an hour but I can't park anywhere when I get there. Any future expansion of the service will also cater to a wider catchment area. You seldom built a whole transport system in one service.



DomKen -> RE: New Reublican Governor's cut jobs as first act. Why? (11/6/2010 8:43:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx
Ken we really need to cut spending....desperately. And I myself will be watching these new so called Republican spend thrifts to see if they are indeed just that.

Bull's new motto, well it's old, but needs to be made heard again....."Balanced Budget Amendment!!!!"


I'm all for balancing the budget if done correctly.

Ideally we should run a surplus in the good years and a deficit in bad years. Of course to get to that ideal we have to drastically reduce the national debt.

To do that we have to be realistic, the single largest, by a huge margin, piece of discretionary spending by the federal government is the defence budget. Cutting it by 50% will still only reduce federal spending by 500 billion. however the deficit is 1.4 trillion. So simply cutting spending isn't going to do it (the entire discretionary budget is only 1.368 trillion). That means we need more revenue and we all know that there is no way the current crop of Republicans will even discuss sunsetting the Bush tax cuts much less instituting an actual tax increase.

So what do you suggest?



DomKen -> RE: New Reublican Governor's cut jobs as first act. Why? (11/6/2010 8:45:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Cost/Benefit ? Lets see, a train that costs close to a billion dollars to build to employ 55 people ? Add in the number of people that will actually be on this train. You do the math. I can drive round trip from Milwaukee to Madison for about $25.00. Cost of the train ticket is estimated to be a little over $60.00. A boondogle that no one will ride.

And once it was built and the technology proven the line would be extended to Chicago and the Twin Cities, at least. Which would have created a very viable alternative to plane flights between the 4 cities. But it was a good idea that would stimulate teh economy in the short and long term so it has to be stopped at all costs.



TheHeretic -> RE: New Reublican Governor's cut jobs as first act. Why? (11/6/2010 9:11:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
I assume when these things are planned there is a cost/benefit exercise done?



LOL! Oh yes! Of course. They spend hundreds of millions on studies of every sort. Then the politicians bury the information they don't like, and do whatever they like anyway. They've probably gone through better than a billion $ in CA, without turning a full shovel of dirt, or designing anything that will actually be used.



Musicmystery -> RE: New Reublican Governor's cut jobs as first act. Why? (11/6/2010 9:26:57 PM)

Well, if you'all don't like yours, I'd welcome high speed rail in NY--Buffalo to Albany to NYC. It would open up several possibilities--telecommuting has its limits.

And leisure time/spending. I'd shoot down to NY for the evening regularly, but I'm not quick to take an entire day.



selfbnd411 -> RE: New Reublican Governor's cut jobs as first act. Why? (11/6/2010 9:27:15 PM)

quote:

Not everyone has a car, I can drive to City of London in under an hour but I can't park anywhere when I get there. Any future expansion of the service will also cater to a wider catchment area. You seldom built a whole transport system in one service.


That's not how conservative math works.  Let me spell it out for you:

Let's say you're building a bridge.  You spend $1 billion, and employ 200 people on the project.

Normal math: $1 billion = 200 jobs, X number of jobs created by the ripple effect (they have to buy the supplies to build the bridge, truck them in w/ American truckers, who spend their salaries on food, etc...), and the bridge itself adds economic value to the area.

Conservative math: $1 billion = 200 jobs.  That's $5 million a job!  That's all we get for our money!  What a waste!  GIVE ME MY AMERICA BACK!

You see, in Conservative math, you don't figure in any kind of ripple effect from job creation, it doesn't cost anything for materials to build things, and the construction is always demolished at the end of the project.

[:D]



joether -> RE: New Reublican Governor's cut jobs as first act. Why? (11/7/2010 12:18:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: selfbnd411
quote:

Not everyone has a car, I can drive to City of London in under an hour but I can't park anywhere when I get there. Any future expansion of the service will also cater to a wider catchment area. You seldom built a whole transport system in one service.


That's not how conservative math works.  Let me spell it out for you:

Let's say you're building a bridge.  You spend $1 billion, and employ 200 people on the project.

Normal math: $1 billion = 200 jobs, X number of jobs created by the ripple effect (they have to buy the supplies to build the bridge, truck them in w/ American truckers, who spend their salaries on food, etc...), and the bridge itself adds economic value to the area.

Conservative math: $1 billion = 200 jobs.  That's $5 million a job!  That's all we get for our money!  What a waste!  GIVE ME MY AMERICA BACK!

You see, in Conservative math, you don't figure in any kind of ripple effect from job creation, it doesn't cost anything for materials to build things, and the construction is always demolished at the end of the project.


In addition, Conservative math (aka Fuzzy Math), does not take in to account variables of different kinds. One example would be the price of a gallon of gas. If gas went up by $1.50, how would that effect commuters who have access to a rail line? The Goverment tends to get better discounts on fuel, then the lowly common citizen.

Likewise, some people dont own a car or motorcycle. Or where they live/work doesn't have safe areas to park their transportation. Having a rail line, would increase job oppunities the person would not have before.

The simple idea, of the construction, is money that can't be exported to another country, nor, can the work be finished 'half-assed' People WILL inspect that line; if the work is shoddy, the company will pay the bill to fix the problem. People learned (particularly in goverment) of the Boston 'Big Dig', and the problems surrounding it. Likewise, $8-10 million to run a rail system that improves two major cities (not to mention surrounding towns) is a good investment. Trains and rails require parts and labor to operate. Do you really think train parts come out of thin air?

It would be very foolish of Ohio & Wisconsin residents to pass up on this rail line. But if they want to listen to conservatives being idiots, that's their wishs. Just dont complain to the rest of America, that your economy sucks in the future.



NeedToUseYou -> RE: New Reublican Governor's cut jobs as first act. Why? (11/7/2010 12:25:32 AM)

Personally I'm not in favor of any more government funded rail.

AMTRAK, which has a stop about a mile from me, is more expensive than driving. Sure I can jump on it go all the way up to Chicago or down to New Orleans, but it is less expensive to drive there....... and to boot not be on a 100% rigid schedule.

How is that even possible? Considering how cheap /lb rail is. I've lived here the majority of my life and have never stepped foot on it, because when I look up the prices they are ridiculous. AND I HATE DRIVING.

I understand this is not AMTRAK, but if it's government or the merging of private corporations and government (that's amtrak) then it will become a bloated and unaccountable tax eating machine. So good for them not getting more bloat on the books. AMTRAK needs to be shut down at this point, IMO.

Anyway, last I looked Warren Buffet of Berkshire Hathaway owns Burilington Northern Railroad, you'd think if there was money in such a project maybe they should talk to him. He wouldn't even need a government loan.


"Amtrak relies on federal appropriation to balance its budget. In 2007, Amtrak received $1.294 billion dollars to support its operating and capital needs. Amtrak earned approximately $2.15 billion in revenue while incurring $3.18 billion in expenses. Total revenue when including the government subsidy came to $3.44 billion thus Amtrak would have showed a profit of $0.26 billion or $260,000,000. " And they still can't compete against the V6 engine car.

So, there is another 1.294 billion that we can cut from the federal budget. Let amtrak die. If there is money to be made in it, someone will do it, obviously there isn't.




joether -> RE: New Reublican Governor's cut jobs as first act. Why? (11/7/2010 12:42:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou
Personally I'm not in favor of any more government funded rail.

AMTRAK, which has a stop about a mile from me, is more expensive than driving. Sure I can jump on it go all the way up to Chicago or down to New Orleans, but it is less expensive to drive there....... and to boot not be on a 100% rigid schedule.

How is that even possible? Considering how cheap /lb rail is. I've lived here the majority of my life and have never stepped foot on it, because when I look up the prices they are ridiculous. AND I HATE DRIVING.

I understand this is not AMTRAK, but if it's government or the merging of private corporations and government (that's amtrak) then it will become a bloated and unaccountable tax eating machine. So good for them not getting more bloat on the books. AMTRAK needs to be shut down at this point, IMO.

Anyway, last I looked Warren Buffet of Berkshire Hathaway owns Burilington Northern Railroad, you'd think if there was money in such a project maybe they should talk to him. He wouldn't even need a government loan.


"Amtrak relies on federal appropriation to balance its budget. In 2007, Amtrak received $1.294 billion dollars to support its operating and capital needs. Amtrak earned approximately $2.15 billion in revenue while incurring $3.18 billion in expenses. Total revenue when including the government subsidy came to $3.44 billion thus Amtrak would have showed a profit of $0.26 billion or $260,000,000. " And they still can't compete against the V6 engine car.

So, there is another 1.294 billion that we can cut from the federal budget. Let amtrak die. If there is money to be made in it, someone will do it, obviously there isn't.


How much does it cost you to travel to New Orleans right now? If you were to drive there? And if gas were $2 higher, three years from now? Which will be the cheaper way to travel in three years?

Your not looking 'down the road' but instead 'what's immedately in front of you'. Anyone whom drives, knows, to always pay attention 'down the road' while 'what's immediately in front of you'. Building a good rail line, is investing in the event of higher fuel costs. And as most of us observed just a few short years ago, the price of gas shooting up to nearly $5/gallon; this scenerio, is a real possibility. I am simply stunned, people would rather ignore a real possibility in favor of a fantasy outcome. As time progresses, the cost for fuel will go up. The real questions will be A) How Fast? and B) How Much? You willing to take that foolish of a risk? Particularly of other people's livilyhoods?




NeedToUseYou -> RE: New Reublican Governor's cut jobs as first act. Why? (11/7/2010 1:06:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

How much does it cost you to travel to New Orleans right now? If you were to drive there? And if gas were $2 higher, three years from now? Which will be the cheaper way to travel in three years?

Your not looking 'down the road' but instead 'what's immedately in front of you'. Anyone whom drives, knows, to always pay attention 'down the road' while 'what's immediately in front of you'. Building a good rail line, is investing in the event of higher fuel costs. And as most of us observed just a few short years ago, the price of gas shooting up to nearly $5/gallon; this scenerio, is a real possibility. I am simply stunned, people would rather ignore a real possibility in favor of a fantasy outcome. As time progresses, the cost for fuel will go up. The real questions will be A) How Fast? and B) How Much? You willing to take that foolish of a risk? Particularly of other people's livilyhoods?




I'm stunned you and others think you can predict the future as well. So, tell me, with all the research in battery tech, and literally dozens of promising advances in the pipe, how you can ensure that the cost of car transport won't drop. It's almost a sure thing at this point, IMO. But I wouldn't bet a billion on it, with tax payer money either.

Hell, I want a Nissan Leaf, hehe, the green geek in me, that would make the disparity even greater between AMTRAK and car trip.


I'll make a deal, we get the budget fixed and steady, and you can risk a billion of tax payer money on a bet on a future outcome, or if you cut it from something like the military budget.

Fair enough...











Hippiekinkster -> RE: New Reublican Governor's cut jobs as first act. Why? (11/7/2010 1:33:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

Personally I'm not in favor of any more government funded rail.

AMTRAK, which has a stop about a mile from me, is more expensive than driving. Sure I can jump on it go all the way up to Chicago or down to New Orleans, but it is less expensive to drive there....... and to boot not be on a 100% rigid schedule.

How is that even possible? Considering how cheap /lb rail is. I've lived here the majority of my life and have never stepped foot on it, because when I look up the prices they are ridiculous. AND I HATE DRIVING.

I understand this is not AMTRAK, but if it's government or the merging of private corporations and government (that's amtrak) then it will become a bloated and unaccountable tax eating machine. So good for them not getting more bloat on the books. AMTRAK needs to be shut down at this point, IMO.

Anyway, last I looked Warren Buffet of Berkshire Hathaway owns Burilington Northern Railroad, you'd think if there was money in such a project maybe they should talk to him. He wouldn't even need a government loan.


"Amtrak relies on federal appropriation to balance its budget. In 2007, Amtrak received $1.294 billion dollars to support its operating and capital needs. Amtrak earned approximately $2.15 billion in revenue while incurring $3.18 billion in expenses. Total revenue when including the government subsidy came to $3.44 billion thus Amtrak would have showed a profit of $0.26 billion or $260,000,000. " And they still can't compete against the V6 engine car.

So, there is another 1.294 billion that we can cut from the federal budget. Let amtrak die. If there is money to be made in it, someone will do it, obviously there isn't.


See, here's some of that fuzzy math stuff. Opponents of mass transit claim that they can get from A to B more cheaply via an internal cumbustion contraption than they can with light rail/bus/tram, etc., but they only calculate the cost of petrol. They never add in the cost of auto insurance, auto maintenance, ad valorem, tags, tire and used oil disposal fees, and all sorts of other direct and indirect costs of auto operation. They never add in the costs of treating asthma and other diseases people suffer as a direct result of auto pollution. They never add in how much it costs to replace trees killed by car and truck exhaust. Acid rain doesn't occur in their universe. No ozone. No NOx gasses. No, it's only the cost of gasoline.

I could go through how much it would cost me to ride the MVV in Munich for a year vs. operating a motor vehicle, but it would be pointless.

This is yet another example of how short-sighted and stupid the righties are.

The smart kids in my HS went on to become DRs and scientists and useful people. The B-level idiots are now the republicans. They were stupid then, and they are stupid now.



tazzygirl -> RE: New Reublican Governor's cut jobs as first act. Why? (11/7/2010 1:38:43 AM)

Monthly bus passes (in Pittsburgh) cost, atm, 80 bucks. Way cheaper to grab a bus than to drive anywhere.



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