Nslavu
Posts: 342
Joined: 2/1/2010
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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
I have to agree with everyone else, I'm afraid.
I think that many people who engage some related belief in conspiracy theories and such concepts of "the noble lie" simply haven't done enough thinking and research.
There are grains of reality in many of the theories, in that there is an "elite" that "rules the world", although not necessarily in the way that they believe. It is no long, historical, conscious conspiracy, with well thought out principles and primary actor: it's anthropology and evolution.
I have NOT used the conspiracy as any part of my thought process, though I do see how some would interpret it that way, through the video. Having people Alex Jones in it, does bring in the conspiracy factor. He has some useful facts but since he is a paranoia delivery specialist getting rich off conspiracy, I tend to discount much of what he says. That being said, I would reiterate that I have not proposed any conspiracy here. Just some psychology and perhaps philosophy and maybe some different ways to think about why things are the way they are.
You make some good points above; but if they are not 'conscious' movements as you suggest, let alone hereditary in some cases, then who drives this cart? I have a hard time believing that people in position of wealth and power are oblivious to their conscience or even that any person is oblivious to their conscious movements. Some may be a little less in touch but still, overall it's beyond anything I would propose in human nature.
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In other words, H. sapiens is an evolutionary creature, and like other primates (or even mammals or any social creature), we have a drive to rise to the top of the pack so as to affect the inheritance of of genes.
Our social milieu is often where we express that instinctive desire (read some Dawkins, at least).
I've read some Dawkins and Darwin. Do you think that if man in totality, had been given the tools from the beginning, rather than having the elite or nobles be the only one's with access to knowledge and things that the wealthy enjoy, would we still be in the relatively unevolved state as a species. If man stays on this 'genes' only course then we are eugenics freaks, not equal men and no longer humanity but a parceled segment thereof. This is what is being missed, that somehow there is no real equality because genetically one person deserves more than another. So the talk about equality is just a psychological feel good lie to temporarily appease those deemed not genetically worthy.
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As part of that social matrix, groups of people who have "risen" are in agreement with others in their same general position, and such "general agreement" often appears to be a conspiracy. But it's not: it's culture and the evolutionary drive.
Sorry, I see what you're saying but I think it's greed, entitlement and self righteousness, inherent in how the system works and has been since rulers began. It may indeed be cultural now but that culture is resultant not causal. Conscious evolution can be so much more than just accepting that the way we have been is the only way to be. In fact that isn't evolution, it's stagnation.
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Sometimes competing groups of elites are opposed to each other. From an evolutionary view, they are still competing against each other for resources and social position to further evolutionary ends, even if there is no thought of that in their conscious mind.
That there is or should be competition is I think once again, resultant, not causal. They way we have been is no more reason to remain that way than say thinking we are not capable of better or more that what we have shown.
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The next concepts that I think are important are democracy and capitalism.
Since there is only room for a very few "at the top", both these general concepts are important - from an evolutionary view - in that they seek to expand the available resources, and the opportunity for "success" for a wider group of people by expanding the resource and social base for the maximum amount of people.
Although it would take an infinite amount of resources to give everyone exactly the same, unlimited access to resources, capitalism has done the best job to approaching that.
I don't think this is true. There is enough wealth on this planet, and enough resources. Money isn't even a 'real' thing. It's a representation, and a poor one at that of the 'value' of any given thing. Since that fluxes constantly, as a resource, it is at best inconstant and therefore a misrepresentation of one's true worth . Those values and worth are grossly overinflated in favor of the so called elite gene pool. You know, I know it. That is what capitalism has done. Widen the gap of value and self worth.
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On the social front, a large, diverse society allows the maximum opportunity for individuals to choose the arena of social competition, and rise to the top of any particular social grouping that they can. In other words, an individual may not be a good politician, and understand how to get elected, but they may be the best damn water diviner (or little league coach, or paddle maker, or pastor, or book reviewer ....) in his social environment.
A generally free and open society also allows the expression of the other side of human nature, instead of strict competition for resources and social position. That "other side" is social and personal altruism, which is another aspect of evolution which has particularly surprised many of the "dog eat dog" believers of "Darwinism".
So ... no "noble lie", no vast conspiracy, but society is still the playground of human evolutionary nature.
I could mostly agree with this. (except as proposed by Plato there is indeed a Noble Lie) Trouble is the playground is tilted and the best equipment is being used by a minority of elites, while the majority of peasants is clambering all over one small piece of equipment.
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Of course, I could be wrong.
Just as you could be.
Who really knows the right or wrong? Duality has room for both, in fact depends on both. Discuss facts as we know them, present thoughts as we think them and we see what pops up.
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But my critical thinking skills lead me to believe that my paradigm is likely more accurate than yours.
Possibly. If so, I could learn from you. I never laid claim to being the wisest of critical thinkers, only that it was hard to hold discussion with those who used none at all.
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Wanna joust?  
I think the jousting has begun, though the connotation generally requires a victor. I could care less about winning and more about learning.
Your turn.
_____________________________
I used to love anal until I ran into people who's heads I had to remove first.
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