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Aggression and submission - 11/11/2010 4:29:24 AM

BonesFromAsh

Posts: 1362
Joined: 6/17/2010
Status: offline

It’s my goal to make this topic as gender-neutral as possible in the hopes that I’ll hear from both male and female dominants. Yes, this is Ask a Mistress, but I think this is a topic that crosses gender. This is also in keeping with the thread Lockit started concerning the lack of interesting topics on this board.

I don’t know if this qualifies as interesting, but I do know it’s something that is of interest to me.

Submission comes in many different styles, this much I’m aware of. I’d like to address one in particular…the aggressive submissive.
In my opinion, this is the person who doesn’t greet you with an ‘offered belly’ inferior stance and a whimper, but instead meets you as an equal…teeth bared, circling you while taking your measure and demanding your dominance.

Could this be seen as wanting to submit but being unwilling to admit it…needing to be “forced” into submission? It seems to have less to do with physical/sexual bottoming, which they have no problem admitting to wanting albeit in a “take down” sort of way. More like equal but different. It could also be seen as a competition of sorts…”Prove you can dominate/out-smart Me and I might submit.”

How do you describe an aggressive submissive individual and does it differ from an assertive submissive?

Does that style appeal to you, why or why not?

What would be some of the issues that could arise in a D/s relationship that involved such a partner?

For the folks who identify as aggressively submissive…has this style been a positive or a negative with regards to a D/s dynamic?

I’m aware this might be fairly basic fodder for some people, but I’m curious to see where this topic might lead.
Thanks.

Post #: 1

RE: Aggression and submission - 11/11/2010 5:56:54 AM

DMFParadox

Posts: 1405
Joined: 9/11/2007
Status: offline

To be honest? I describe it as fucking annnoying.

I mean, I'd probably be more entertained if it didn't happen so often. This is way more common than the 'nice' submissives, at least in my world.

But then again, it's effective... talk shit to me and I'll talk back, so it's a good way to keep my attention.

It's the ones who know how to turn it off who can get anywhere with me. If this kind of show me you're a man aggression keeps going when I've already proven I'm capable of knocking her down, it passes from attention-getting to dangerous. Too close to actual rape for me to be comfortable with it, I've seen too many guys go to jail for less.

_____________________________

bloody hell, get me some aspirin and a whiskey straight

"The role of gender in society is the most complicated thing I’ve ever spent a lot of time learning about, and I’ve spent a lot of time learning about quantum mechanics." - Randall Munroe

(in reply to BonesFromAsh)

Post #: 2

RE: Aggression and submission - 11/11/2010 6:34:11 AM

sunshinemiss

Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline

Hello Bones,

When I read your question, it seemed much more about an assertive person rather than aggressive based on your use of the word "equal". It seems rather like Renee Russo and Pierce Brosnan in the movie The Thomas Crown Affair. There was nothing submissive about her, but he did draw her out in that way. He even said he'd be disappointed if she changed.

Lack of a - what was the term? ‘offered belly’ inferior stance and a whimper - does not in my mind equate with being aggressive. It is about knowing one's worth. I don't think there is anything wrong with expecting someone to prove they are worthy of your trust (which in the end is what we are talking about with an assertive person.). In fact, nothing wrong with expecting that for some time and in different circumstances.

On the other hand, the person who is aggressive sounds like someone who is afraid to face their own demons, their own self-judgments. They don't want to take responsibility for their own lives and their own sexuality. That is a horse of another color. I liken it to people who need weekly therapy versus people who need 24 hour in your face reality testing for a week in rehab. The person in rehab needs some serious monitoring for when the walls come tumbling down. So, too, someone who needs to be "forced" to do what they want to do - the fallout can be more than they are capable of handling alone. Unexpected problems can (and most likely will arise. (Sorry about the mental health example, but it's what I know. If I were an organic chemist, I'm sure my analogy would differ vastly).

Many people certainly identify as assertive... and self-aware. That probably makes those people what others would call an aggressive submissive. But you know what? I'm quite all right with that. Nothing wrong with looking out for number one. It is, after all, each person's responsibility.

best,
sunshine

p.s. Your brain is showing. Might want to tuck that thing back in before you scare someone.

_____________________________

Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

(in reply to BonesFromAsh)

Post #: 3

RE: Aggression and submission - 11/11/2010 7:02:12 AM

Takeylarose

Posts: 300
Joined: 9/12/2010
From: Alba, TX
Status: offline

For me I would look at it as more of a challenge.. Knowing that they were watching me as closely as I was watching them. I would bring my "best game" to the table. When someone sets high expectations for me, I strive to rise up to the challenge. I don't want something simply handed to me, there is no joy in that for me. We all test our partners to some degree or another, whether we like to admit it or not..

It would appeal to me, at least in the beginning, I might grow tired of it after sometime. However I do kind of feel it would actually be benefitial for a relationship- helping to keep things fresh and keep the fire alive within a relationship..

_____________________________

An improper mind is a perpetual feast.....

(in reply to BonesFromAsh)

Post #: 4

RE: Aggression and submission - 11/11/2010 7:17:50 AM

Icarys

Posts: 5757
Status: offline

I've got more important shit to do that get involved with an all out mental WWE style war like relationship. Sounds like a Klingon mating ritual..Cool to watch on TV but hell if I want to live it.

One thing I love about the women I do is the contrast in their spirits. I enjoy their timid natures. Someone I can be soft with is nice.

The last place I want a battle is at my home.

I may be Klingon like but I'd never date one of those bitches.

< Message edited by Icarys -- 11/11/2010 7:27:15 AM >

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to Takeylarose)

Post #: 5

RE: Aggression and submission - 11/11/2010 7:27:52 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

No, I can't say the type would appeal to Me. I think I'm tying that in with the 'prove it' stance that was linked in there. I could just be putting My own conjecture into the matter, but it sounds somewhat combative to Me in a way. Not in the fun take down kind of sense for play, but more like the struggle for power is being set and that's a path I'm not especially interested in traveling.

As for the contrast, in the 'belly up' reference, that isn't exactly My style either. I think many of us are familiar with the turn off that this can be. Someone who complies to anyone and everyone. Not only is it no fun, but it isn't the type that I tend to mesh with the best. I suppose I'm seeing those two types as the opposite ends of the spectrum.

Assertive might just be the best description for the type of submissive that attracts Me. I don't want anybody who is too easy and I don't want someone who is going to challenge Me all of the time. What I actually prefer is a certain energy between Myself and a submissive when meeting and building on that from there. I enjoy the process of taking that initial chemistry and allowing it to deepen over time. I like the investment that is required from both of us, the building of trust and so on, that encourages that person to yield to Me more as the dynamic progresses. That's My best fit.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to sunshinemiss)

Post #: 6

RE: Aggression and submission - 11/11/2010 7:34:07 AM

Takeylarose

Posts: 300
Joined: 9/12/2010
From: Alba, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

I've got more important shit to do that get involved with an all out mental WWE style war like relationship.

One thing I love about the women I do is the contrast in their spirits. I enjoy their timid natures. Someone I can be soft with is nice.

The last place I want a battle is at my home.

I wouldn't neccesarily see it as a battle, just an opprotunity to prove to the other person whether or not you take the relationship seriously..

Think of it kind of like a video game, when you first get it, damn you can't quit playing it- you want to figure out the buttons, beat the bosses, etc.. But after so long, you know what's going to happen, and the game gets put on the shelf or traded off.. You may have loved playing that game, and want to play it again from time to time but it just doesn't hold the same appeal as it did before. It's not a challenge for you..

_____________________________

An improper mind is a perpetual feast.....

(in reply to Icarys)

Post #: 7

RE: Aggression and submission - 11/11/2010 7:38:44 AM

Icarys

Posts: 5757
Status: offline

quote:

As for the contrast, in the 'belly up' reference, that isn't exactly My style either. I think many of us are familiar with the turn off that this can be. Someone who complies to anyone and everyone. Not only is it no fun, but it isn't the type that I tend to mesh with the best. I suppose I'm seeing those two types as the opposite ends of the spectrum.

I like the belly up style. My pups do this and I eat it up. I rub their tummy's and lay down with them, talk sweet to them, cuddle and just plain lavish as much affection on them as I can. My affectionate side comes out and honestly I love it when it does. I'd prefer it be out way more than my aggressive side. It gets plenty of release.
(I know..so much for the Klingon like statement)

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 8

RE: Aggression and submission - 11/11/2010 7:44:15 AM

Icarys

Posts: 5757
Status: offline

quote:

Think of it kind of like a video game, when you first get it, damn you can't quit playing it- you want to figure out the buttons, beat the bosses, etc.. But after so long, you know what's going to happen, and the game gets put on the shelf or traded off.. You may have loved playing that game, and want to play it again from time to time but it just doesn't hold the same appeal as it did before. It's not a challenge for you..

Yeah I see those types of relationships on a regular basis and they never last..The thrill is gone and so is the relationship.

I'm not an adrenaline junkie when it comes to relationships.

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to Takeylarose)

Post #: 9

RE: Aggression and submission - 11/11/2010 7:48:03 AM

Tantriqu

Posts: 2026
Joined: 12/29/2006
Status: offline

Yeah . . . no . . .
When I read a profile that yells 'You'll have to make me submit/take me down/out-dominate me', I yawn at the smell of a 'do me dom', smart-ass masochist or twitchy switchy in my delicate nostrils -- until I click on 'Next'!

(in reply to Icarys)

Post #: 10

RE: Aggression and submission - 11/11/2010 7:53:51 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys
I like the belly up style. My pups do this and I eat it up. I rub their tummy's and lay down with them, talk sweet to them, cuddle and just plain lavish as much affection on them as I can. My affectionate side comes out and honestly I love it when it does. I'd prefer it be out way more than my aggressive side. It gets plenty of release.
(I know..so much for the Klingon like statement)

Still early in the morning for Me, so let Me see if I can get this to make sense.

What you're saying here in relation to your dogs is a good analogy. How long have you had them? If I remember right, it's been some time. Same thing, really. They didn't flop over and have that kind of bond with you from day one. That is an animal behavior of affection, trust, and faith in you that they have acquired over time. You've shown them as you've raised them what your position is in their lives. The very same pet wouldn't respond to an owner who had interacted with them differently. It's been your influence that gets them to react that way to your affections.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to Icarys)

Post #: 11

RE: Aggression and submission - 11/11/2010 7:57:51 AM

Takeylarose

Posts: 300
Joined: 9/12/2010
From: Alba, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

Yeah I see those types of relationships on a regular basis and they never last..The thrill is gone and so is the relationship.

I'm not an adrenaline junkie when it comes to relationships.

I can understand and respect that. For me I guess it's the thrill of the chase. Keeping me interested..

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Assertive might just be the best description for the type of submissive that attracts Me. I don't want anybody who is too easy and I don't want someone who is going to challenge Me all of the time. What I actually prefer is a certain energy between Myself and a submissive when meeting and building on that from there. I enjoy the process of taking that initial chemistry and allowing it to deepen over time. I like the investment that is required from both of us, the building of trust and so on, that encourages that person to yield to Me more as the dynamic progresses. That's My best fit.

I can definitely agree with this, I don't want someone too eager to submit, I do want a challenge but I don't want an ongoing challenge everyday for the course of the relationship..

I looked at Bones' OP of the start of a relationship and how we all test and build trust with our partners.. Eventually the relationship has to hit a plateau otherwise it kills the dynamic. There is no power exchange just a constant battle.

_____________________________

An improper mind is a perpetual feast.....

(in reply to Icarys)

Post #: 12

RE: Aggression and submission - 11/11/2010 8:18:45 AM

crazyml

Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline

Personally I find "aggression" pretty tedious - in either dominants or submissives. So the "teeth bared" stance isn't particularly interesting. But, "belly bared" is also pretty unappealing.

Now.. turn the dial down a teensy bit and give me someone who is confident, assertive, articulate and self aware... woo hoo!

_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to BonesFromAsh)

Post #: 13

RE: Aggression and submission - 11/11/2010 8:39:05 AM

Icarys

Posts: 5757
Status: offline

quote:

What you're saying here in relation to your dogs is a good analogy. How long have you had them? If I remember right, it's been some time. Same thing, really. They didn't flop over and have that kind of bond with you from day one. That is an animal behavior of affection, trust, and faith in you that they have acquired over time. You've shown them as you've raised them what your position is in their lives. The very same pet wouldn't respond to an owner who had interacted with them differently. It's been your influence that gets them to react that way to your affections.

You're trying to get the analogy to fit your mindset and it doesn't quite work the same as mine.
Zoe did this the first day she came to me..She's a naturally sweet dog. As a matter of fact she followed me around and wouldn't leave my side from day one..Including to pee and poop.. I would be talking to renters and turn around to see a puddle or log behind me.

Some of you may find that distasteful but I saw a creature that needed a lot of love and attention and craved it. I fell for her instantly.

Rambo was abused..He definitely needed some reassurance and time to trust.

< Message edited by Icarys -- 11/11/2010 8:40:57 AM >

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 14

RE: Aggression and submission - 11/11/2010 8:51:45 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys
You're trying to get the analogy to fit your mindset and it doesn't quite work the same as mine.
Zoe did this the first day she came to me..She's a naturally sweet dog. As a matter of fact she followed me around and wouldn't leave my side from day one..Including to pee and poop.. I would be talking to renters and turn around to see a puddle or log behind me.

Some of you may find that distasteful but I saw a creature that needed a lot of love and attention and craved it. I fell for her instantly.

Rambo was abused..He definitely needed some reassurance and time to trust.

Actually, I think it works very well. You've got two different creatures with two different ways that they responded to you.

One had the type that was immediate and the other came around over time. It still reflects what I'm trying to convey. I'm just more fulfilled with one type over the other. This isn't to say that others may feel differently about the situation. I just know what pattern works better for Me.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to Icarys)

Post #: 15

RE: Aggression and submission - 11/11/2010 8:59:45 AM

Icarys

Posts: 5757
Status: offline

quote:

One had the type that was immediate and the other came around over time. It still reflects what I'm trying to convey. I'm just more fulfilled with one type over the other. This isn't to say that others may feel differently about the situation. I just know what pattern works better for Me.

This is usually where the semantics begin. I'll pass on that this time being that I'm hungry and must eat soon. I personally see a difference but whatever works for you.

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 16

RE: Aggression and submission - 11/11/2010 8:59:51 AM

BonesFromAsh

Posts: 1362
Joined: 6/17/2010
Status: offline

~fast reply~

Thanks everyone for offering such cool responses.

I don't have loads of time right now to reply...work does have a way of happening...but I have ideas floating around in my brain and things I'd like to address later.

For the record...I see aggression coming from a place of insecurity and assertiveness a reflection of self-confidence.

(in reply to Icarys)

Post #: 17

RE: Aggression and submission - 11/11/2010 9:08:55 AM

Icarys

Posts: 5757
Status: offline

That surely is one possibility.

Here's the definition for aggressive.

–adjective 1. characterized by or tending toward unprovoked offensives, attacks, invasions, or the like; militantly forward or menacing: aggressive acts against a neighboring country. 2. making an all-out effort to win or succeed; competitive: an aggressive basketball player. 3. vigorously energetic, esp. in the use of initiative and forcefulness: an aggressive salesperson. 4. boldly assertive and forward; pushy: an aggressive driver. 5. emphasizing maximum growth and capital gains over quality, security, and income: an aggressive mutual fund. 6. Medicine/Medical . a. (of a disease or tumor) spreading rapidly or highly invasive; difficult or impossible to treat successfully. b. pertaining to a risky surgery or treatment, or to a medication that has grave side effects: aggressive chemotherapy.

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to BonesFromAsh)

Post #: 18

RE: Aggression and submission - 11/11/2010 10:53:19 AM

Iholdthestrings

Posts: 172
Joined: 9/23/2010
From: Fort Wayne, IN
Status: offline

FR...

I think the basic difference I see between being aggressive and being assertive is this: The assertive person makes it known what they do and do not want from a particular situation. The aggressive person goes and gets it.

I find it tiring when the "aggression" comes out in the form of "I dare you to dominate me". I make it a point to get to know someone as well as I possibly can, especially before entering into a dynamic with them. I'm also sure to let them know Me, warts and all. When it comes down to it, either they want to submit, or they don't. If they don't, then I'd much rather find someone who does than spend all My energy on a struggle for who's going to be in charge. I'm in charge. Don't like it? Go somewhere else.

That said, I love it when a sexual partner is aggressive, be they submissive or not. Show Me how much you want Me. Ravage away. I'm all about it. And yes, I do like to bottom from time to time, but that's not what I'm getting at. I really enjoy a partner who is sexually bold, and a little forceful about it. Even then, though, I run the show. I get aggression because it's what I want.

Oh, and if she's going to greet Me by baring something, I can think of much more interesting and fun things than her belly...

(Edited because I said "point" three times in a paragraph, and it was making Me crazy.)

< Message edited by Iholdthestrings -- 11/11/2010 10:56:35 AM >

_____________________________

She tied you to Her kitchen chair... and from your lips She drew the Hallelujah.
---------------------------
If I had an orgasm-trigger phrase, it would be "No Strings Housework". ;)

(in reply to Icarys)

Post #: 19

RE: Aggression and submission - 11/11/2010 11:15:36 AM

Lockit

Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

I am not an aggressive person, but I am assertive. I don't need to be aggressive to get what I want, however I do need to be assertive. An assertive person I can respect a lot. An aggressive person I have little respect for because it seems to me, that they are trying to use force of some kind to get what they want.

For example, I got an email recently that said... would you consider an equal? Come say hello... Besides being a one liner from a dominant male... and yes I do answer some one liners, I saw this as something I would like to question. Before I could respond I got another email again saying, come say hello. My response went something like this... whatever do you mean? That submissive's are unequal or less somehow? I believe they are equal, but different and submission is a choice otherwise if it is an unequal thing, how can we know that someone unequal can really decide correctly what they are submitting to if they are unequal, less and lacking? He damn well better be equal!

Then the third email was that he was looking for a dominant woman. My response was basically, that in this lifetime, there was no way we could be considered equal because he was far too stupid because he had first tried to direct me, had used one liners to get my attention and he hadn't the foggiest idea of what I clearly state in my profile and believe. I feel it is pretty stupid to try to get somewhere coming from those directions.

Was he assertive or aggressive? I saw him as aggressive. Inconsiderate, selfish, condescending toward submissives and demanding.

Had he come at me in a different manner, after reading a bit about me and said something on a personal level, even a one liner... and said, come on, say hello... give it a chance although I am a dominant, you know you really want to... I would have laughed and responded from a very different place and thought him assertive rather than aggressive.

Presentation is everything. One was unreasonable and unfounded and the other was reasonable and founded. I love an assertive man. I hate a belly crawling, head bowing, eye's lowered, ma'am/mistress/goddess.. I am only here to please types. However I am clear about what I seek and expect in a relationship and that is a flowing dynamic that doesn't need aggression to get submission or dominance. Those break me to make me types are as bad as the belly crawling types. Unrealistic for whom I present on my profile.

_____________________________

No matter how old a woman gets, some men will think she was born yesterday! ROFL... I love this place!

(in reply to Iholdthestrings)

Post #: 20

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