The Stimulus At Work (Full Version)

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TheHeretic -> The Stimulus At Work (11/11/2010 10:04:38 AM)

Now that the election is over, and there is hope of more philosophical discussion, I'm curious about people's reactions to, and thoughts on the TSE program. It hasn't had much media attention, if any. Perhaps, as House oversight goes looking at where the money has been going the last couple years, it will get some attention.

To put it in a nutshell, TSE is Transitional Subsidized Employment (sometimes called STEP). The program puts welfare recipients into private jobs, with the government picking up the tab. A brief description can be found here, from a promoting agency. The "employees," make $10 an hour, with the beneficiary organization paying a maximum of 20%, or maybe nothing at all. The employment liabilities are assumed by a government agency.

As is so often the case for me when it comes to liberal policies, I can both appreciate the good intentions of this, and think the methodology is completely wrong.

First off, we have the gov't, offering a pool of free labor to "qualifying" business. There are several "ism's" where you might find such a state of affairs, but capitalism ain't one of them.

For companies and employers who don't get such a handout, but must compete with the ones that do, it can only be a "WTF?" moment. How stimulated are they, by such a stimulus program?

For those in the job market who aren't all signed up for welfare, and enrolled in the nanny system, how dare the gov't be passing out $10 an hour jobs, while they struggle to get something at minimum wage?

Even for the direct effect, and stated goals, the welfare cases being placed into jobs, where they can get experience and build their skills, what are they learning? That you are ultimately accountable to someone other than your boss? That work is something you are given, instead of something you go get? Doesn't this move them deeper into psychological dependence on gov't assistance, instead of away from it?




willbeurdaddy -> RE: The Stimulus At Work (11/11/2010 10:21:43 AM)

In theory its a good idea if it is implemented properly. Unfortunately that isnt going to happen. For it to be succesful something on the order of 1 out of 6 or 7 TSE employees need to become full time employees for the costs to eventually be offset. Between poor selection of candidates and companies intentionally picking them up as temporary workers that is an unlikely number.



rulemylife -> RE: The Stimulus At Work (11/11/2010 10:34:50 AM)

This is hardly a new concept, and it has proven itself before.

Works Progress Administration

By March, 1936, the WPA rolls had reached a total of more than 3,400,000 persons; after initial cuts in June 1939, it averaged 2,300,000 monthly; and by June 30, 1943, when it was officially terminated, the WPA had employed more than 8,500,000 different persons on 1,410,000 individual projects, and had spent about $11 billion.

During its 8-year history, the WPA built 651,087 miles of highways, roads, and streets; and constructed, repaired, or improved 124,031 bridges, 125,110 public buildings, 8,192 parks, and 853 airport landing fields.





rulemylife -> RE: The Stimulus At Work (11/11/2010 10:38:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

In theory its a good idea if it is implemented properly. Unfortunately that isnt going to happen. For it to be succesful something on the order of 1 out of 6 or 7 TSE employees need to become full time employees for the costs to eventually be offset. Between poor selection of candidates and companies intentionally picking them up as temporary workers that is an unlikely number.


Tell you what Willbeur, why don't we try a little experiment here.

For once on this board, show where you came up with these numbers.



TheHeretic -> RE: The Stimulus At Work (11/11/2010 10:48:34 AM)

There is a bit of a difference between building public works, and providing insurance offices with free receptionists and distribution centers with free delivery drivers, RML. That whole public vs. private thing, or do you not see such distinctions?




mnottertail -> RE: The Stimulus At Work (11/11/2010 10:54:30 AM)

Those sorts of programs in one form or another have been around since at least the 70's. CEP for example.

So it ain't just a liberalistic idea, many republican congresses have funded them.

And it gets money in the pocket, and maybe some skills for the employed, but overall fails for longterm employment.



rulemylife -> RE: The Stimulus At Work (11/11/2010 11:39:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

There is a bit of a difference between building public works, and providing insurance offices with free receptionists and distribution centers with free delivery drivers, RML. That whole public vs. private thing, or do you not see such distinctions?



Same concept, just a slightly different application.

You could go back and argue that private sector jobs were taken by the WPA, which was actually an argument made by conservatives of that era.

It comes down to the bottom line of reducing unemployment.






rulemylife -> RE: The Stimulus At Work (11/11/2010 11:49:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

And it gets money in the pocket, and maybe some skills for the employed, but overall fails for longterm employment.


Except the immediate purpose is not long-term employment, the goal is a short-term stimulus that hopefully provides a kick-start to the economy and provides the skills needed for eventual long-term employment.





TheHeretic -> RE: The Stimulus At Work (11/11/2010 1:54:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
the goal is a short-term stimulus that hopefully provides a kick-start to the economy and provides the skills needed for eventual long-term employment.


So why not address the questions from the first post about how the program meets the goals, RML, and what the unintended consequences are?

Whenever I make my way back to the Portland area, I alway try to schedule a bit of time to drive up the Columbia Gorge scenic highway, which was built by one of those depression-era programs. The guardrails and retaining walls are built of local stone, quarried, cut and stacked to create jobs. Coming up on 80 years later, society is still enjoying the fruits of those job creation efforts. We got something for our money. Do tell, RML, what long-term benefits the next generations will get from the program discussed here.



slvemike4u -> RE: The Stimulus At Work (11/11/2010 5:15:57 PM)

I prefer to wonder how many lives might be enriched by such a program.When all is said and done,might there not be,perhaps more tha a few,whose lives have been altered by participation in such a program.
Let's be cynical and restrict the number,those enriched by this program,to only the few.If only a few can be lifted above the generational cycle that is poverty and government assistance....might those few not have ripples of their own ...as their children grow-up under a new reality ?
But what the fuck....I'm a liberal......lol.



Termyn8or -> RE: The Stimulus At Work (11/11/2010 5:55:58 PM)

FR

"Doesn't this move them deeper into psychological dependence on gov't assistance, instead of away from it?"

So many things the government does seem this way, it has to be true of a few of them. If they wanted a good economy why the hell didn't they protect our borders from the unscrupulous sharks who moved all the good work out of the country ? Why did they give them incentives instead ? Why did they just about destroy the education system ?

I guess I am pretty good at answering questions(s) with question(s) huh.

"Between poor selection of candidates and companies intentionally picking them up as temporary workers that is an unlikely number.


Tell you what Willbeur, why don't we try a little experiment here.

For once on this board, show where you came up with these numbers. "

Judging from experience with people without high skill levels, employers will simply take the temporary advantage and throw people back out on the street. The wages are only a part of the cost of hiring in this type of system. Many companies pay good money through the nose to temporary agencies. For example I know two people who have had jobs through a temp agancy. One made $12 an hour while the agency charged $23 an hour for his work. Another only made $8 an hour and the agency charged $18 an hour for his work. They each paid their own taxes and everything. Another questioning answer coming here, why is it so cost effective to do so ? They are not exempt from any type of employment regulations or laws. Without a computer I could probably write 100 paychecks a day after figuring out all the witholding, there is obviously another factor that impels them to make this decision.

And though I'll not be snarky about it (mentioning no names) I don't think Wilber's number are quite accurate, no matter what the source. If one out of six people gain real employment out of the program that leaves five still on public assistance or whatever. One employee's taxes will not make up for that at ten bucks an hour.

"This is hardly a new concept, and it has proven itself before."

Yes, and we are witnessing it's devastating effects on our economy now for about the last couple of decades. This is where the (larger) debt started. There may have been a chicken in every pot, but everyone thought chickens grew on trees. They don't, everything costs. All the money paid out for the WPA was BORROWED, and we are still paying interest on it. And we will until the day we die unless something drastic happens.

If ten thousand people get into the TSE program, that's 10,000 X $10 for 2080 hours in a year. If one in ten participants gain meaningful employment from this, that is almost $21 million to get a thousand people up and running.

In reality this is another step in the centralize and socialize goals of our lofty representatives. And they will be rewarded for all the good they did. (LOL) It may be OK as a stop gap measure, but nothing good long term will come out of it.

It has been expressed, but I will put it into Termynesian - they can't create jobs that'll do any real good. Everything is all service oriented, so what do we get more telemarketers or something ? And it is still pushing the same pile of money around.

T



Brain -> RE: The Stimulus At Work (11/11/2010 7:52:52 PM)

What are they learning? They are learning how to work and make a living to provide for themselves and get off of welfare. They are also learning when people live in a community they help each other when required for the benefit of everyone. And last but not least the government payback is not spending money on the criminal justice system and prisons. The United States spends a lot of money on the criminal justice system and putting people in jail. There is a better way.



TheHeretic -> RE: The Stimulus At Work (11/11/2010 8:55:28 PM)

Good news, Brain. The US government has taken your wise counsel, and will shortly be sending you a recently released felon, at no cost to you, as your new housekeeper. Out of respect for his privacy, we can't tell you what crime/s he commited, of course. Just... don't look him in the eye... His former cellmate will be delivering hot meals to your elderly relatives.

LOL



mnottertail -> RE: The Stimulus At Work (11/12/2010 6:47:43 AM)

Well, if he has paid his debt to society, and has a green card.........(a little something that tripped up Meg Whitman, neu?)



popeye1250 -> RE: The Stimulus At Work (11/12/2010 9:07:06 AM)

What are you supposed to do with $10 an hour when $15 an hour is "subsistance level" these days?
And at a time when the number of U.S. govt. jobs paying more than $150k has gone up tenfold in the last five years or so.



Musicmystery -> RE: The Stimulus At Work (11/12/2010 9:31:03 AM)

Here's another of your myths.

Government workers are hardly highly paid. Border control agents make $30,000 something. Agricultural inspectors make $20,000 something. It's a knee-jerk popular area to hit, but it's bullshit.

Even at the high ends, private sector equivalent positions pay FAR more than government compensation.

You want to fix the deficit? Face the reality that it will take higher taxes, cutting defensive spending, and trimming programs--not this penny ante shit populists and Republicans banter about endlessly. You will also have to face the reality that to do so so will substantially slow the economy.

But hey! Our currency would rise, killing our export markets and making imported goods far more expensive! You'd LOVE that!

Of course...the widespread unemployment and negative growth would work in the counter direction.

Slogans are so much easier than solutions. Saves all that thinking, and without needing demonstrable results.
But hey



willbeurdaddy -> RE: The Stimulus At Work (11/12/2010 10:04:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

It's a knee-jerk popular area to hit, but it's bullshit.

Even at the high ends, private sector equivalent positions pay FAR more than government compensation.



Sorta yes, sorta no.

At the HIGHEST end private sector >>>> Federal, simply because there are few comparable jobs.

However in the middle ranges, say $70k-200k, total compensation is comparable for similar education and experience, and Federal jobs are vastly superior to private wrt to work hours and job security. The most important thing to note is the CHANGE in the comparison over the last 15-20 years. It used to be that Federal employment was a low paying resume builder for anyone with ambitions to reach the highest ranks in their chosen career. The Feds experienced high turnover in the middle ranks which led to talent depletion in the most important managerial roles. Federal pay scales were revamped in response in the mid 80s, though they were still initially somewhat behind. However, Federal job scales are generally automatically adjusted for cost of living (full CPI-U, not "core inflation"). Private sector jobs have not kept up, particularly at the lower ends of the pay scale.

State and local jobs still are 6-7% behind their private peers in total compensation, but again are vastly better wrt to hours, responsibility and job security.



rulemylife -> RE: The Stimulus At Work (11/12/2010 2:29:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
the goal is a short-term stimulus that hopefully provides a kick-start to the economy and provides the skills needed for eventual long-term employment.


So why not address the questions from the first post about how the program meets the goals, RML, and what the unintended consequences are?

Whenever I make my way back to the Portland area, I alway try to schedule a bit of time to drive up the Columbia Gorge scenic highway, which was built by one of those depression-era programs. The guardrails and retaining walls are built of local stone, quarried, cut and stacked to create jobs. Coming up on 80 years later, society is still enjoying the fruits of those job creation efforts. We got something for our money. Do tell, RML, what long-term benefits the next generations will get from the program discussed here.


Seek and ye shall find:

Stimulus Watch: Keeping an Eye on Economic Recovery Spending



TheHeretic -> RE: The Stimulus At Work (11/12/2010 6:13:22 PM)

Muse, you really need to keep up. I've posted several items on government employees, not just federal, but state and local as well. It isn't just the salaries, but the retirement benefits that really kill us.

What is your take on laws that make government employees immune to tickets from red light cameras, for example?

http://reason.com/archives/2010/01/12/class-war/singlepage


Or, better yet, do you think the TSE program is going to produce the desired results, and if so, would they be outweighed by the negative consequences I raised in the first post?

edit to ad link



Musicmystery -> RE: The Stimulus At Work (11/12/2010 7:23:18 PM)

quote:

not just federal, but state and local as well. It isn't just the salaries, but the retirement benefits that really kill us.


No, YOU keep up.

This "OMG the Federal government is going to swallow us whole" Chicken Little shit is exactly why you're in that state and local mess. Every time my Fed taxes went down, my state and local jumped more, because they had to do things previously handled by the Feds.

I'm not getting into silly word wars over every little state and local issue, because obviously, they are all different. And it's a problem long in the making--states and municipalities didn't set aside dully the funds they needed to meet their commitments, putting their short term wishes ahead of prudent planing, and now that it caught up with them, they want to blame the employees for working for better benefits in lieu of better pay. It's bullshit--and not a trap every state fell into.

In California, you guys are just bat shit stupid. You voted in a nice sounding proposition policy, then you proudly vote down any revenue increases while also voting down any cuts while the real world marches on without you, costing money while you blame your politicians for not performing the alchemy you're demanding.

If you're fed up with stupid shit in California, stop voting for it. If you want to talk about real solutions vs. imaginary ones, fine.

The ridiculous crap I hear is just mind-boggling. Like the high-speed rail. If Wisconsin or Ohio or whatnot doesn't want the money and the jobs, fine. If they want the money for more highways and bridges, they just had that money. What did they do with it? Or is this another example of "Opps! Forgot to plan ahead!"? We put that money right to work here--shovel ready was exactly what those projects were (thanks to Pataki trying to cut his way into twelve years of proving he's a Conservative). And those states won bids for high speed rail over others. If they don't want it, go down the list! New York is lobbying hard for it again--it means jobs, and we'll take them, along with the benefits of the rail system.

Now, if you want to argue that state and local governments are and have been ballooning for the past three decades, get behind me and welcome to the party finally.



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