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RE: Hanky Spanky - 11/20/2010 7:03:29 PM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Where does bedroom-only end and D/s begin?  The woman in my life is my equal outside the bedroom, but she sleeps in my collar and restraints, and calls herself my slut.  I don't see how such behavior can limit itself to just the bedroom. It radiates out to all aspects of our interactions in small ways.

I think the premise of much of this thread discussion is mistaken.  Instead of D/s and hanky-spanky being fundamentally different, discriminating against each other, etc., I think they are virtually the same.  Anyone who makes a romantic life commitment to another person is transferring over power.  Period.  It doesn't matter how they identify.  The only "real" authority transfer occurs when one person falls in love and the other person doesn't care.



I think you bring up a really great point, Red. It is when emotions get all mixed up in stuff that we find the fluidity that folks are talking about.  I expect that truth be told caring on both sides of the equation is what leads a relationship more than any one person.  Once the caring is gone, so too the relationship.

Nice to see you posting as always - that's one lucky babe you got there.

best,
sunshine

_____________________________

Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

(in reply to RedMagic1)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Hanky Spanky - 11/21/2010 6:46:46 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		I think we may inherently realize when someone else has our best interests at heart, and are inclined to reciprocate - in some sense, it's a practical definition of "love", and it works whatever your dynamic happens to be.

My slut, is in a very real sense, simply letting me be a man, allowing me to let the sexually aggressive side of myself out to play, I appreciate that, I think it's a very sociable thing to do, and she in turn appreciates that side of me, that I allow her to act the "slut", that I don't reject her for it after I've had my fun, and in fact, love her more for it, when both of us otherwise, might be targets of criticism for it.

Again, the type of social arrangement here is largely irrelevant, details.

(in reply to sunshinemiss)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Hanky Spanky - 11/25/2010 11:21:40 AM   
Ligeia72


Posts: 126
Joined: 6/29/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Hello folks,
In response to the discussion of more intellectual?  indepth?  threads, I'm putting out something that has been niggling at my brain for a bit.

There are a lot of people on the fora that are "Lifestyle" people.  These are folks who really go with the whole TPE kind of dealio.  (Y'all know I'm down with that - if it makes you happy, nobody is being harmed, hey... have at it!).

I rarely see threads that are about "in the bedroom only" kind of folks.  Where do the Hanky Spankies fit in here? 

What comes up sometimes is the whole Domination / running the relationship thing, and often the folks who are just not into that aren't represented as much. 
The Tops and Bottoms are here, but the norms of the fora (which I did start a thread about recently) are generally about more intensive BDSM type relationships (not more intensive relationships - just ones that are more BDSM dynamically inclined). 

Am I off my rocker here? too sensitive? missing something because of a blind spot?

best,
sunshine



I haven't logged in for ages, and to be honest that is mainly because - well first I was unwell for a while, and didn't much feel like chatting, and then once I was feeling a little more communicative, I just found the dynamic on here tends to lean more towards the D/s, M/s, TPE side of things, after the initial enthusiasm of 'newness' had worn off, I didn't really feel I had that much to contribute as someone who essentially identifies as a 'Service Top' with little to no interest in the power exchange side of things. That's not a black mark, or anything, against the site itself, just that it perhaps isn't what suits *my* needs/requirements/insert whatever other descriptor here. I've actually found myself being a little more active with Fetlife (at least in terms of perusing the various discussion communities, I'm yet to fully dive in with the discussions), mainly because that site does seem to be a little more 'involved' (for want of a better term) with discussions more pertaining to my interests in wiitwd.

(in reply to sunshinemiss)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Hanky Spanky - 11/25/2010 1:10:53 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss
It looks like, the difference between HS people and the 24/7 people is the acknowledgement of reality.  On one end are the people who admit that there is a beginning and an end point, who admit that there is a choice.

Of course, in the very way you have phrased this, your own biases and prejudices show through. I have to tell you that I've analyzed that word "choice" very, very, very closely over the last .... what??? 6-8 months. In fact, it's been a primary focus for 165+ IQ points over that time period. That being said, I've found it to be much more ephemeral than I would've thought -- not just for Carol, but for me too. When you really think about that, you have to start asking questions about "freedom", "choice", "consent" and what all those things mean when you are a member of a pack species which, by it's very nature, maintains strong and complex interdependencies between it's members. But hey, if it's all so clear cut to you, then I'm impressed. It sure as hell isn't for me.

quote:

The folks who are into the more M/s kind of relationship on the other end of the continuum pretend that there is no choice or have more rigidity within their choices.
Yeah... and here's exactly how it gets sticky. Do I, or do I not have the "choice" to just walk out the front door right now and leave Carol... you know... get on an airplane, go to somewhere sunny, call a lawyer and have him send over the divorce papers. If you think it's easy to answer that question, then you don't even understand what the question is.

quote:

Over and over I see people say - I have 2 choices - obey or leave.  After the relationship ends, they often realize that despite the rigidity they chose to live within there were other choices all along.
Well yeah... that's a given. But please let's not associate that sort of thinking with M/s people. In my mind, that is largely people who are not in ANY relationship at all but writing about their theoretical relationship. I'm utterly clear that I have a bajillion choices in terms of relationship types I can form with Carol.

quote:

The existence and acknowledgment of choice by the HS people makes the M/s house of cards fall and that could be why so many responses are  dismissive of people who "play" rather than "live" the lifestyle.  We couldn't even talk about the possibility on this thread without a mod deleting a full 50% of the thread to allow the topic to exist.
Wow! This is, perhaps, the most condescending and just plain parochial thing I've read here in weeks if not months. Just because you are incapable of getting outside your own skin doesn't mean there isn't an entire world out there. It just means it's invisible to you.

quote:

I think that the choice to be in a more M/s relationship is a perfectly valid choice
Sure you do. It's a delusional choice which is a house of cards, but hey, if I want to be an fool and an idiot, then fine, right? If I'm supposed to think that this means you are open-minded, I'm afraid I'm not getting that.

quote:

I'd like to see more openness...
Yeah, me too. But after this post of yours Sunshine, I'm surprised you'd be willing to say that. Honestly, almost invariably I like what you write and in fact, you recently wrote something very flattering about me that floored me and Carol both. But honestly, this post needs some rethinking in my opinion.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to sunshinemiss)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Hanky Spanky - 11/25/2010 2:55:30 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Hi folks,


It looks like, the difference between HS people and the 24/7 people is the acknowledgement of reality.  On one end are the people who admit that there is a beginning and an end point, who admit that there is a choice.  The folks who are into the more M/s kind of relationship on the other end of the continuum pretend that there is no choice or have more rigidity within their choices.  Over and over I see people say - I have 2 choices - obey or leave.  After the relationship ends, they often realize that despite the rigidity they chose to live within there were other choices all along.

The existence and acknowledgment of choice by the HS people makes the M/s house of cards fall and that could be why so many responses are  dismissive of people who "play" rather than "live" the lifestyle.  We couldn't even talk about the possibility on this thread without a mod deleting a full 50% of the thread to allow the topic to exist.

I think that the choice to be in a more M/s relationship is a perfectly valid choice but so is the choice to not do that.  So is the choice to be completely vanilla and on this board.  Most of what we talk about is relationships.  I'd like to see more openness to talking about the fluidity of non-M/s relationships. 

best,
sunshine


You know, the reality of MY relationship IS what it IS.  It's M/s because that's the way we designed it.

It's sincerely NOT the fact that HS enthusiasts * make the M/s house of cards fall and that could be why so many responses are  dismissive of people who "play" rather than "live" the lifestyle. *

There's nothing to fall. Our *House of Cards* doesn't exist JUST because no-one's toppled it.......It IS what it is.

I've never seen another relationship like my own. It's threaded with so many strands.......and most other people's are too, no matter HOW similar they may appear on the surface.

Yes, it IS Obey or Leave..... it's also Lead or Leave. Put it this way, despite all the intricasies of our long-held relationship, if one or the other of us no longer wishes to either Obey or Lead, the relationship, as we know it, will end.

Who the hell can know what would happen after that? Certainly not me. Life, as we know it, will NOT be the same.

Whatever *choice* you make in regards to how you live contentedly is simply just that. Who cares? I might have something in COMMON with other people in similar situations M/s wise, but I have a lot in common with people in the Folk scene too, or musicians, or anyone that's been caned.....or been pierced...or who've given up diet coke. blah blah.

Looks remarkably as if you are making HS a *special case* ...when in fact it's just people doing stuff that suits them, just as M/s people are just people doing stuff that suits them, too.

You've done a good job of denigrating M/s in this post, which seemed to be your initial complaint in your OP, regarding HS.

agirl



















(in reply to sunshinemiss)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Hanky Spanky - 11/26/2010 4:13:55 AM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

What comes up sometimes is the whole Domination / running the relationship thing, and often the folks who are just not into that aren't represented as much. 
The Tops and Bottoms are here, but the norms of the fora...are generally about more intensive BDSM type relationships... 

Am I off my rocker here? too sensitive? missing something because of a blind spot?

best,
sunshine



i don't think you missed anything. Enough people shared your opinion. You made a valid point. Many people expressed gratitude to you for starting the thread, for bringing up such a sensitive subject. Clearly you're not alone, not crazy. Too sensitive... maybe.

i hate so say it, sunshine, but i think the best solution to your problem is to stop worrying about how many people agree with you. Hey, i'm not trying to marginalise your point of view. Like i said, i think you made a good argument. However, many of your dissenters made equally good ones. Some of them were dismissive. Most were not. That seems about par for responses to the threads in general.

It's a forum. There are many different personalities here. They are not all going to agree with you. They are not all going to be polite or fair, though, in my opinion, the majority of responses usually are. What they are all going to do is candidly express their own opinions. That is to be expected.

Look, i can see what you mean about people being dismissive. i see it too, sometimes. However, i also see the opposite, i see the lifestyle folks being dismissed. i think each side is slighted by the other, from time to time. For me, that's something that comes with the territory. It's a give and take. That statement applies to the people on any side of any question.

Look, sunshine, even if a hundred people disagree with you, it doesn't mean you are wrong. It just means that each of them was as entitled to give their opinion as you were to give yours.

Sincerely,
pam

(in reply to sunshinemiss)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Hanky Spanky - 11/26/2010 2:31:45 PM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline

Hello Jeff,
I wrote out a long note based on your response, but it was just rehashing much of what I’ve already said.  There are a few points, though that I’d like to respond to.  I’m not going to copy and paste the whole quote thing.  It would be way too big.  The mods have already been on here enough.  *wink
In no particular order: 

The M/s pattern or structure put within the context of a more play relationship would *in fact* fall like a house of cards.  Imagine a 24/7 type of person telling an HS kind of person that she was going to start calling and asking for permission to go out with her friends.  She’d laugh at the mere suggestion.  Poof!  I consider someone laughing at a demand because of its presumption pretty equal to a house of cards falling. 
 

HS people acknowledge their own beginning and end point.  Heck, even with an M/s structure there is a beginning and end point – even if the end point is with one person dying.  Or does the relationship continue after that?  Or what if one person stops leading or following?  Does the relationship end immediately?  Probably not.  People can pound their chests all they want, but I find it hard to believe that staying up one extra minute late after the ordered bedtime will seriously end the relationship. 
 

There are a lot of people who live the 24/7 lifestyle, and that’s totally cool.  Realistically, I doubt that many of the people on the forums – including the ones who engage in TPE started that way.
 

Based on what several 24/7 –TPE folks have said on this thread I’ve been thinking about the whole black and white thing.  It would seem things are not as cut and dried as is usually presented on the forums.  I’ve appreciated that part of the discussion.  Still thinking it through, though.
 

As an aside, I found it pretty condescending that another poster said that the HS people don’t have anything relevant to say. 
 

I don’t know why you would be surprised that I respect the relationship between you and Carol.  I do.  It’s not *my choice*, but I respect not just that you’ve found a way that works for you, but based on your writings, it’s something done in a very honorable manner.  That’s worthy of respect.  I’d respect anyone like that.  I don’t have to become a vegetarian to respect someone else’s choice to become one.
 
Also, I’m very big on believing in interdependency.  Directly or indirectly, I’ve often written about it on the forums.  And you are right – relationships are complex. 
 
Generally speaking, admitting that there are a bajillion choices is not what is acknowledged on the boards, though.
 
 
best to you and yours,
sunshine
 

_____________________________

Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

(in reply to gungadin09)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Hanky Spanky - 11/28/2010 6:31:47 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I'm confused on one point. If a HS person laughs at the M/s person who says she needs to call first and ask permission, why would that automatically make the M/s relationship fall apart? To me, it would appear more likely that the friendship between the HS and the M/s would end because of the fact that the HS would not respect the M/s person's relationship. Most of the vanilla marriages I know would include both spouses calling and checking in with the other to see if that was okay, if there were plans they had forgotten about, talk about who eats dinner when. A friend who sneered at me for so doing is not much of a friend, imo.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to sunshinemiss)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Hanky Spanky - 11/28/2010 8:00:22 AM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		I started with a 24/7 M/s relationship, and when that ended, i found myself  in a HS relationship.   and the difference for me?  -  -   -  not a whole lot.
I still "do" things for my Sir -  the difference is that he doesn't require me to do them, but in the long run, isn't my desire to do things more important than his demanding i do them?

I can't speak from the dominants point of view, but for myself - i do what is required of me in the bedroom - and for the rest, i do what i think will please my Sir and make him happy. Obviously, i don't have the certainty of the M/s where he would tell me exactly what he wanted done, but like any other relationship, in this one, i do what i think needs to be done and hope for the best.

I think of it as submitting on the sly .

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Hanky Spanky - 11/28/2010 11:10:41 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

The M/s pattern or structure put within the context of a more play relationship would *in fact* fall like a house of cards. Imagine a 24/7 type of person telling an HS kind of person that she was going to start calling and asking for permission to go out with her friends. She’d laugh at the mere suggestion. Poof! I consider someone laughing at a demand because of its presumption pretty equal to a house of cards falling.


Des, I think sunshinemiss meant that if an M/s and an HS person were in a play relationship together and the M/s person issued the HS person some instruction *outside of the bedroom*.

I still don't follow the point though. I see no cards falling just two people who didn't hash out their expectations clearly in the beginning.

agirl

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Hanky Spanky - 11/28/2010 7:39:28 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Ah, thank you. No, that situation just says to me that the people involved need to learn how to communicate their needs clearly and determine whether or not there is sufficient compatibility to have a good relationship.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to agirl)
Profile   Post #: 91
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