RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy

RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (Full Version)

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VaguelyCurious -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/18/2010 1:46:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer How, for instance, could a doctor or copper distinguish a D/s or M/s- engendered injury from a straightforward, abusive kind of injury? And - worse - supposing that such injuries occur in a relationship that's both D/s- based - and abusive (in a clearly non-fun way)? I don't know. This is one of the things that has been bothering me. Hence the reliance on personal responsibility-when it comes down to it there's fuck all you can do for someone in an abusive relationship if they don't want to leave themselves, and I think that stands true for potentially abusive D/s too. I've come to the conclusion that if a person can clearly tell you the worth of their relationship then you have to accept their assessment.

BonesFromAsh -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/18/2010 1:55:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious I think it comes down to adult responsibility-if a consenting adult wishes to be in a relationship that may cause them to be physically damaged, and is willing to accept that risk (where accepting that risk also means being willing to deal with any consequences) then who am I to tell them, from outside their relationship, that it's not ok? Would you feel this way about a friend who stays in an abusive relationship, knowing she puts herself at risk daily by doing so, because she's been told she doesn't deserve better or that no one will want her? If you saw the bruises daily and watched her become more and more reliant on her partner for basic direction in life because he's told her over and over this is to be her lot...would you still see it as consensual because she stays? Do you walk away and say "It's her choice" or do you intervene? It's an extreme example, I know, but it does relate to consent and how it's viewed by others...at least in my opinion.

Icarys -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/18/2010 2:17:22 PM)
quote: Agreed. That being the case, is it acceptable to judge or call attention to the actions of a couple (or more if you're poly) for behavior that appears to be abusive or detrimental to health and well-being of those involved in what is described as a TPE dynamic? An example could be the one discussed in THIS thread. for the record...I'm not trying to stir up shit or paint all TPE-M/s relationships in a bad light. I'm just curious at what point is it acceptable to butt in, if at all. I think the thread linked for me goes over the okay mark..but hell I've done some things that I KNOW has gone over what others thought was okay. I wouldn't break someones bones and I would probably turn you in if you (general) did it. I would also "expect" that someone might do it to me as well if I was doing something that they thought was tattle worthy. Let's not kid ourselves though...Most of us aren't really here for the cookies. I'll live and let live as long as it doesn't get too crazy... I wouldn't care if someone was trying to paint TPE in a bad light..I'm going to continue of course.

VaguelyCurious -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/18/2010 2:20:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BonesFromAsh Would you feel this way about a friend who stays in an abusive relationship, knowing she puts herself at risk daily by doing so, because she's been told she doesn't deserve better or that no one will want her? There is no 'would' about it-I have seen that. And I'm being pragmatic here-if a woman doesn't want to leave then nothing I can say will make her do so. I can offer her resources and give her love but I can't make her leave. One day she did wake up and take responsibility. Best decision of her life. But none of her friends and loved ones are kidding ourselves that that decision was down to us-it had to come from her.

Icarys -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/18/2010 2:22:12 PM)
quote: Would you feel this way about a friend who stays in an abusive relationship, knowing she puts herself at risk daily by doing so, because she's been told she doesn't deserve better or that no one will want her? If you saw the bruises daily and watched her become more and more reliant on her partner for basic direction in life because he's told her over and over this is to be her lot...would you still see it as consensual because she stays? Do you walk away and say "It's her choice" or do you intervene? It's an extreme example, I know, but it does relate to consent and how it's viewed by others...at least in my opinion. Is she happy or miserable...that would determine healthy or unhealthy for me.

sunshinemiss -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/18/2010 2:54:14 PM)
Two words - Stockholm Syndrome. There are 3 women that personally I know of on this board (not necessarily the thread) that are / were victims of it. best, sunshine

crazyml -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/18/2010 3:02:46 PM)
This is one of the most difficult questions to answer in the whole realm of kink. Personally I think this hinges on how you define "private" and how you define "consent". Looking at "private", I'd argue that in any established society or community the moment your actions impinge on the ability of other people within that community then it becomes a public matter. The goal of "Law" is to strike a balance between limiting a person's freedom to do whatever they like in order to protect the freedoms of people as a whole. Frequently we forget this when making laws - But generally we agree that, for example, speed limits around schools are a sensible balance between restricting the driver's freedom to choose their speed and the rights that children have to go home from school without being mown down. Yep, you can argue an ultra libertatian stance (and in doing so you can call me a socialist) but that's part of the contract inherent in civil society. So, I believe that as soon as someone's actions begin to cause social harm then they're no longer private. Who the fuck am I to make that judgement? I'm not claiming any authority whatsoever, I'm claiming the right to say what I think and take the consequences. In the UK, for example, we all pay for health services through our taxes, so I might argue that the moment someone deliberately allows harm to be caused to them that requires some of the tax I pay to be spent fixing it then it's not private and I get a say. Now... consent. To consent to anything you have to be competent. The most obvious, and arbitrary, factor in determining competence to consent is age. In the UK you can consent to sex at the age of 16, but it's a little complex and to be certain you're best waiting till the person is 18. For example - You can't "consent" to being a prostitute till the age of 18 - So if you pimp your 17 year old gf then you're all set for inclusion in the sex offenders register. The other element of competence is mental competence - Someone who is mentally impaired may be deemed incapable of consent, and someone who is mentally ill may be deemed incapable of consent. I say "may" because UK case law requires a specific test for competence for each "thing" someone consents to and the standard varies. So someone may be competent to consent to medical treatment, but not competent to consent to have sex. So we get into that gnarly arena of "what is sane?" I believe that there are some things that are so fucked up that the desire to have them done to you (or the desire to do them in fact) is evidence of mental incompetence. I say this as someone with absolutely no expertise or qualifications in psychiatry and I make absolutely no claims that my definition is right - I'm just sharing it with you all. We all draw the lines in different places, plenty of people on these boards (many of whom I respect enormously) will have very very libertarian views where it comes to defining whether a particular desire is in and of itself evidence of insanity while others may have a much narrower definition. I don't know were my definition is on the spectrum (naturally I like to tell myself it's at the "perfect" spot. But hey! Why don't I throw out a couple of straw persons and give a couple of examples - Take "Ultraviolence" - by this I mean really fucking hardcore beating - baseball bats, balls being crushed, fingers and ribs broken = I believe that people that enjoy inflicting this are dangerous people who should be locked up in prison. People that enjoy having this inflicted upon them are sick people who need to be locked up in a hospital. What about the person who wants to have an arm cut off? - MAD What about the person who likes a slap and the occasional black eye - No problem! What about the person who loves the idea of branding - Go for it! The person who likes to be caned so hard that the bruises stay for a week - Fair play! What about the person who is so lacking in selfworth, so downtrodden so abused that they will "consent" to anything to stay with their partner? Not competent, and in need of help. In the examples above where I feel that the person isn't capable of consent then I will act - either directly or by reporting it to the relevant authorities. And if I get it wrong and in my very flawed and basic ability to determine someones competence I wrongly conclude that someone is incompetent when they actually are - Well, I'll have to take the consequences of those actions.

littlewonder -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/18/2010 3:18:44 PM)
personally unless you involve me in your relationship I may find what you do to be deplorable or gross but that's about it. I won't care one way or the other what you do. I may tell you or think that you're not someone I'd ever want to be around or be like but after that I just let it roll off my back and continue on with my own life. I have enough to care about in my own life to be concerned with anyone else's. <just to add "you" is anyone..no one person in particular>

BonesFromAsh -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/18/2010 3:22:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious quote: ORIGINAL: BonesFromAsh Would you feel this way about a friend who stays in an abusive relationship, knowing she puts herself at risk daily by doing so, because she's been told she doesn't deserve better or that no one will want her? There is no 'would' about it-I have seen that. And I'm being pragmatic here-if a woman doesn't want to leave then nothing I can say will make her do so. I can offer her resources and give her love but I can't make her leave. One day she did wake up and take responsibility. Best decision of her life. But none of her friends and loved ones are kidding ourselves that that decision was down to us-it had to come from her. Interestingly enough, I also had a friend who was in this type of relationship. It went on for about 10 years and to the outside world it appeared that she was ok...not totally happy with her circumstances, but hey, she stayed. She also finally decided to take "responsibility"...not by leaving but by taking her own life. Was that the best decision she could have made? Were her other friends and loved ones right by not getting involved and waiting for her to "wake up"? LadyPact commented on another thread that domestic abuse laws are what most folks in a relationship involving bdsm need to be concerned with. That being the case...I ask where does private consent end and public intervention begin?

VaguelyCurious -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/18/2010 3:33:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BonesFromAsh Interestingly enough, I also had a friend who was in this type of relationship. It went on for about 10 years and to the outside world it appeared that she was ok...not totally happy with her circumstances, but hey, she stayed. She also finally decided to take "responsibility"...not by leaving but by taking her own life. Was that the best decision she could have made? Were her other friends and loved ones right by not getting involved and waiting for her to "wake up"? I'm sorry for your loss. There's no easy solution to any of this, and I don't have any trite answers. But I question what can be done by 'getting involved'-there's a limit to the positive impact someone outside a relationship can have when things are bad. quote: LadyPact commented on another thread that domestic abuse laws are what most folks in a relationship involving bdsm need to be concerned with. That being the case...I ask where does private consent end and public intervention begin? Most of my experience with public intervention in domestic situations comes from school and the problems schoolfriends had. Teachers, in general, were incompetent. Social workers, in general, were powerless and kind of rubbish. The signal was given that we were supposed to deal with whatever crap was happening prettymuch on our own. So maybe I'm not the person to ask, but IMO public intervention can go and take a running jump. As for the area between private and public-close friends, family, people who know the ins and outs of a situation? I don't know. It's something that keeps me up some nights.

sunshinemiss -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/18/2010 3:39:06 PM)
quote: There's no easy solution to any of this, and I don't have any trite answers. Then stop giving trite answers. quote: But I question what can be done by 'getting involved'-there's a limit to the positive impact someone outside a relationship can have when things are bad. Lives can be saved that's what can be done. Bones, I, too, have been a survivor of suicide. Not anyone I was really close to, but in an office full of mental health workers, one of our co-workers took his life. None of us realized... or maybe we realized but didn't do enough. That is what haunts me even today. Could we have known? Bones, I'm so sorry for your loss. May you have peace. To the question: I need to be able to look in the mirror every day. If I see that someone is in harm's way, it is in fact my responsibility to step in. Thank goodness someone did for me one day. Thank you to that person. best, sunshine

OrionTheWolf -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/18/2010 3:46:24 PM)
So who determines harm? I think a good measure is if it is discovered, are those involved thriving and happy? My girl have had several people try and convince her that my Internal Enslavement process is "brainwashing", and guess what? It is, and she consented and knew about what would be involved. She has less anxiety and depression today, than she did 3.5 years ago. She has more self esteem, and more stable than she has ever been. From the outside though, many would scream Stockholm.

sunshinemiss -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/18/2010 3:54:18 PM)
Hi Orion, I know what you mean. For me (and only for me), the difference is a simple question - Is your method "harming" her as I would define it (whatever that means)... It's like good art. I don't know that I can define it, but I know it when I see it. I have seen it a time or two. Somehow, if the person is becoming a better person (whatever that means), then you are helping them - as often happens when vanilla people (or anyone) is in love. But once you start harming them - psychologically or physically, that's a different story, and it is my responsibility as a member of the community to step in. What is the line? That was the original question, yes? I don't know the answer, but again, I know it when I see it. Not much of an answer, but it is accurate... for me. best, sunshine

crazyml -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/18/2010 3:57:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf So who determines harm? We all determine harm individually. Then if we decide to act we need to be prepared to accept the consequences of that determination. quote: I think a good measure is if it is discovered, are those involved thriving and happy? Yes, this is a bloody good measure! quote: My girl have had several people try and convince her that my Internal Enslavement process is "brainwashing", and guess what? It is, and she consented and knew about what would be involved. She has less anxiety and depression today, than she did 3.5 years ago. She has more self esteem, and more stable than she has ever been. From the outside though, many would scream Stockholm. But I'm guessing you're not hacking her limbs off, breaking ribs or beating her so badly she needs to go to the ER?

lovingpet -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/18/2010 4:11:08 PM)
Let's go a step farther here. When exactly does it "involve me"? I have experienced conflict on this point in the past. I would consider what my partner and I do in public to be extremely tame compared to what we do in private yet there has been controversy over some of it. It changed my mind not in the least, but it does leave a person wondering what makes another person "involved" or involved enough to have a say. Saying when we involve others is when it goes from private to public means we have to have some idea when a person is truly being involved in the first place. Make no mistake. I can't answer my own question. It's just an underlying part of the problem with this particular debate. While I agree that at some point folks can determine that what is going on is not acceptable and act upon that, this can easily be taken entirely too far. I consider myself extremely considerate of other...to a fault even. Still I can offend in this area in ways that I wouldn't even dream would be considered invasive much less offensive. I have been horrified to discover something I did discomforted or flat out upset someone. At the same time, I have had to accept that you just can't please everybody. I just choose whom it is that I wish to please and make sure I do so. Anything else sets the whole world on its side. I do my best and the more I find something private myself, the more I guard it from any possible definition of "public". Matters of a legal nature are a different ball game. They are defined outright in the law books and all we can do really is mind the company we're keeping, advocate for change, and keep things as private as we deem necessary until things DO change. Some things simply can't change I think. At the same time, the law has to keep up with the needs of the community in which it exists. Otherwise it is not serving a legitimate purpose. Now who decides this is another matter altogether, but I can say with fair certainty that if I live in a community, then I expect my rights and well being to be protected. I also expect I will have to compromise a bit in order to allow for others' rights and well being to be protected as well. In those areas I will simply have to use discretion and awareness of the risks. Interesting discussion every time it comes up. Thanks for posing the question. lovingpet

littlewonder -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/18/2010 4:16:23 PM)
"involve me" for me means I am personally a part of your relationship, you specifically choose, deliberately make it a point to bring me into your relationship. You take me by the arm and lead me into what you are doing, Doing something in public for me doesn't mean involving me. I can always turn and walk away, close my eyes, not watch, etc.... But when it gets to the point where you force me with no other choice...I can't walk away, I can't leave because I have no way out then you have now involved me.

lovingpet -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/18/2010 4:18:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious IMO public intervention can go and take a running jump. Sorry to say, but for the most part I would agree with this. Public intervention often does more harm than good. In an EXTREMELY narrow set of circumstances it may be otherwise, but for the most part it is taking a broken situation and grinding it through an even more broken system. Better to just pick up my super glue and put the pieces back together again best I can with those who care enough to help. lovingpet

DesFIP -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/18/2010 4:49:44 PM)
When it impacts others is one criteria. Calling her degrading names in front of her children, or yours, or the neighbors. Or her or your aged parent or grandparent. The odds are the relationship will not last, but her relationship with her children and parents will and therefore you shouldn't damage it.Making her undress and masturbate in public, causing her to be a registered sex offender is categorically wrong.

DesFIP -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/18/2010 4:58:52 PM)
BFA suicide is not the result of a rational mind in most circumstances. If you have a choice between suiciding and being tortured to death, that's something else. But in the situation you describe, it was the result of mental illness. And it is quite possible the reason she was okay if not wildly happy all those years was that she needed the micromanagement and the heavy endorphin release to be almost okay. Had they played less and less extreme, she might have suicided earlier. Endorphin release temporarily raises the mood. Of course, had she seen a professional and gotten the more appropriate treatment she might have made it longer. Whatever, it was not your fault nor her friends fault nor her lover's fault. It was the fault of a miswired brain.

PeonForHer -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/18/2010 5:23:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious As for the area between private and public-close friends, family, people who know the ins and outs of a situation? I don't know. It's something that keeps me up some nights. VC, There was a case, recently, of a security guard apprehending a shoplifter for stealing a bag of groceries. He put the shoplifter in a stranglehold. Everyone watched in shock, but didn't intervene. The security guard's uniform said to the watchers, 'This person is in control. He's part of authority, of balance, reason, orderliness, and fair play. The situation is being dealt with in the proper way'. Except that it wasn't - the shoplifter was strangled to death. The security guard was prosecuted for murder. I do think that people need, at times, to say 'piss off' to every legal and moral convention that has been sewn into them. All of these things simply aren't up to the job. You may want to call yourself a conservative, a liberal or a socialist - but at those times, you're fucked unless you're an all-out anarchist.

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