RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (Full Version)

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xssve -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/18/2010 5:52:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious


quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

When it's a non consensual relationship, that's when.

And who are you to state that it's non-consensual? If you're going to rely on her legal status as your reason I will remind you that a relationship which contains ultraviolence is illegal no matter her legal status-the law draws the line well before issues of consent.

If you admit that a consensual ultraviolent relationship is ok (which is implied in saying that only a lack of consent gives you the right to object) then you're already beyond the line the law has drawn, so it seems pathetically weak to insist on a legal assessment of competence for a person to consent.
yes, I am going to cite legal status and mental competence, it goes directly toe the informed part of the consent issue - state of mind is necessarily taken into account when consent is being argued as a defense - the use of drugs and alcohol is another factor, and any other mental phenomena that may affect ones judgment - depression, etc. - you have to be fully aware and cognizant of the consequences.

I have no idea why this seems pathetically weak to you, someone has to decide whether it's consensual or not, and the person motivated to perform the act may not be the best choice in every instance.

The reason ultraviolence is illegal, is that is that wanting to have this done to you is pretty much considered a definitive case of not being in your right mind, and being presumably irrevocable, you are not going to be able to change your mind later.

Like suicide, if you really want to do it, you'll find a way - if you are involving others at all, the implications is you want somebody to stop you, because if you are competent, you have to know that someone is going to try and stop you, and if you don't know that, you are probably incompetent.

Sort a Catch 22 there, but "society", whatever you want to call it, as represented by institutions, is always going to have a problem with this, see Dr. Kevorkian - and a perfectly logical argument in that direction is that certain people are more impressionable than others and can be talked into doing things they might not otherwise consider, or are not in their best interests: children and adolescents, the elderly (see televangelists) those of diminished mental capacity, whether temporary or chronic, etc.

Where there is a will, there's a way - no?

All I can say for sure is I'm not inclined to be left holding the bag unless there's a damn good reason for it.

If you think it's the right thing to do, I suspect that gratification should be enough for you, I don't know why you need me to approve of it.



porcelaine -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/18/2010 6:17:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BonesFromAsh

If your (general) dynamic involves extreme physical "interaction" (some folks might call it abuse), ie broken bones and the like, or extreme mental "interaction" (again, some might call it abuse), at what point does it become more than just YOUR dynamic?

Is there a point or is it all just a private thing to be kept out of the public eye?


Greetings BonesFromAsh,

The responsibility for addressing and shielding outward appearances that could invite suspicion and/or involvement from third parties is solely His. I'm held accountable if I intentionally or unknowingly attract attention by my behavior and speech. Barring the above there's the common sense factor and I wholeheartedly believe that my loyalties and duty to the dynamic (and station) supersede societal rules and expectations. Since I'm not in the position to make a determination what should or should not take place in a public forum, thinking along these lines is wishful at best save when my opinion is solicited. It's a foreign what if mentality that has no resonance with my countenance and is reminiscent of one who attempts to do a job that has never been assigned to them.

Namaste,

~porcelaine



BonesFromAsh -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/18/2010 6:54:37 PM)

~fast reply~

Wow...seriously, I just noticed I spelled privacy wrong in the title of this thread!

I would have been totally cool with someone bringing this to my attention. [:D]



January -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/18/2010 6:59:04 PM)

quote:

At what point DOES it (the dynamic of M/s) become more than just the business of those involved?


For me? When children are harmed. Just being around abuse, even consensual abuse, is destructive to kids. The children have not given consent to be part of this dynamic. BDSM is no excuse to traumatize a child. So if I knew some interaction was extreme, and the children were not shielded from it (or the results), that would activate my alarm buttons. I would absolutely call in the authorities.

And then of course, I would act if my own child (even an independent child) was involved in a dangerous, harmful relationship. You know the phrase "helicopter Mom?". I am SWAT Team Mom.

If it was a friend? I would talk to her gently, carefully, and never be able to sleep through the night until she was safe. But I would have trouble calling in the authorities if I thought she was sane and willing--and didn't expose her children to it.

January



DesFIP -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/18/2010 7:49:27 PM)

I'm likely to say that even if the children are shielded from it, if the broken bones makes it impossible for you to function as a parent, then you've gone over the line. And I also include elderly and fragile adults here. 



FriendlyMuppet -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/18/2010 8:02:54 PM)

I try not to get involved in what other people do, especially if it doesn't concern me. It's hard to avoid a situation when you realize someone is being abused, and sometimes it's even harder when you suspect that someone into the scene is really being abused but is brainwashed as well. I still try really, really hard not to get involved because way too many times I've had an intervention blow up in my face, or at least knew of one blowing up in someone else's.

Nowadays, I monitor my friends and look after them, and if a victim asks for help, I'll consider stepping in then. But again, I try, really, really hard to avoid getting involved in the affairs of others because way too often an outsider just doesn't realize the dynamics and can cause more problems than are solved.



xssve -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/18/2010 8:53:49 PM)

[sm=anger.gif]



LadyPact -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/18/2010 9:12:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BonesFromAsh
LadyPact commented on another thread that domestic abuse laws are what most folks in a relationship involving bdsm need to be concerned with. That being the case...I ask where does private consent end and public intervention begin?

Since that comment has been removed from the other thread, I'm going to explain the comment.

Domestic Violence laws are the ones that are easier to charge, prosecute, and convict.  A number of people, even in the BDSM community, don't know the scope of these laws.  Some get confused by the term "domestic" and don't even realize that you don't have to be living with the person for the laws to be applied.  Residency isn't the only circumstance that will fit the criteria.  In many states, if a romantic or sexual relationship can be proven to exist, the same laws can be used under some circumstances.  We don't have great legal ground to stand on, since most of the things we do, we can't really obtain consent in the eyes of the law.

This doesn't mean that I disagree with DV laws.  We have to remember that we are the minority in the situation.  Those laws are there to protect those who don't want their partner to be beating on them.  Every non kinky/non power relationship person out there should have every avenue at their disposal to be free of the person that they feel is abusing them.  However, we can't make that call when it comes to relationships that aren't our own.

One of the hardest threads around here for Me was the pro-ana/pro mia thread.  It was darn hard for Me to swallow (no pun intended) and realize that I didn't get to make the call concerning the people who willingly participated in it.  Not something that I would do in My own dynamic, but it's not My decision in other people's.

If someone feels they are being abused in their relationship, kinky or not, by all means, we should be there with a helping hand.  At the same time, we also have to respect that other people get the choice to live the way they want to live.



xssve -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/18/2010 9:38:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

FR

I've been thinking a lot about this recently-some friends of mine are into ultraviolence (or at least that's what it's called here-I don't think I've ever seen an American use the term) and my own reactions to their play have scared me a little bit-I'm wondering if I'm really as much of a fluffy sadist as I think I am.

Another Brit? It's from Burgess, A Clockwork Orange.

quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious
I think it comes down to adult responsibility-if a consenting adult wishes to be in a relationship that may cause them to be physically damaged, and is willing to accept that risk (where accepting that risk also means being willing to deal with any consequences) then who am I to tell them, from outside their relationship, that it's not ok?

Somebody said on the other thread that we're all off the edge of the map here, and that's true. xssve is kidding himself if he thinks that he wouldn't be pilloried by society just as badly as daddysprop's master, and if it weren't for the fact that I'm a young and attractive female I probably would be too. He's saying the line is clear, not fuzzy, but the fact is that most people would draw the line waaaaaaay before where he's standing and he rejects that (as we've all done, really) because he's decided that he knows better-he knows there are fulfilling relationships to be had beyond the commonly accepted line. How is he then to complain when another person does exactly the same thing with exactly the same knowledge to the line he's drawn further along?
I am not discussing that other person, ever - but what makes you think I've not been pilloried? I've been pilloried thoroughly, thank you, almost non-stop even, I've recounted my experiences from time to time in various forums, but suffice it to say I'm pretty sure I've had way more pillorying than that other person you mention, and not on some obscure forum hardly anybody reads anyway, but in a small town, full of teabaggers and religious manics, but I've somehow survived without excessive emotional scarring or trauma, go figure.

I'm not sure about who lies where on what line, that part is pretty vague - the line itself is in fact, pretty damn fuzzy, but there are two stable points, one being consent, the other inflicting gross bodily harm, those two I'm fairly certain about, and they are hardly my concerns alone.

In fact, the reason I find it so easy to dance around the pillory, making mocking and obscene gestures at the howling mob of outraged villagers screaming for my blood, is that I take great pains not to cross either of those lines, and as long as I don't they can't do a goddamn thing about it, thanks to the Constitution of the United States.

There is much wailing and gnashing of teeth, I assure you.



subkatslut -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/19/2010 12:12:27 AM)

I am generally a mind your own business type of gal and by no means go sticking my head into anyone's business. So with that said, if I'm noticing-you're drawing my attention to it in some manner because I don't notice too much. lol

For me it comes down to what *I* could live with should the worst happen. If saying or doing nothing would cause me to lose sleep in the worst case scenario as not caring enough to become involved or being too scared to. Because after all I am the one who will live with the decision for the rest of MY life.

Which as a parent it runs along similar lines. I would never want someone to misinterpret or misconstrue something I am doing based on their opinion. With our system and I've seen a friend go through this when it comes to kids it's not innocent until proven guilty it's often you're guilty and you must prove your innocence. Not a laughing matter when it comes to your child. So believe me it's never anything to be taken lightly whether it's a child or an adult.

As a competent adult I know full well what could get me into trouble and what the laws are and what may bring attention from well meaning people...nosy or not. If I choose to go down that road then I also need to accept that it could cause me grief both socially and legally. The bottom line is there are abusive situations that exist and oftentimes the people involved deny it and even feel like they deserve it and that there is no way out. It just is. If one refuses help then at least I've done my part and can live with myself regardless of what happens. But to turn a blind eye is simply not an option for me if it's right in my face. But there would need to be a pattern and I would need to know a little more before jumping the gun and doing something anyway.

If you're totally competent and merely too stupid to keep it private well I'd say you also might be too stupid to be doing it.

Also even though here in the US we usually have private insurance all our rates are determined by how often it's used and the costs of fellow insureds. It's one thing to get sick or to accidentally get injured or to be born with a chronic condition but something entirely different if your play will necessitate medical care and you know that. Oftentimes higher risk professions and risk takers have extra insurance and rates to offset that potential cost. Your average BDSM player does not so we all pay. Worse yet when they are on public aid. So indirectly it may impact me and like a previous poster mentioned that also makes it my business.



CelticPrince -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/19/2010 1:32:14 AM)

quote:

So as to not further derail sunshinemiss's most excellent Hanky Spanky thread, I wanted to ask a question about TPE M/s relationships.

At what point DOES it (the dynamic of M/s) become more than just the business of those involved? There have been a couple of interesting cases recently that have brought that question to the forefront, in a legal sense, and it it has me wondering.

If your (general) dynamic involves extreme physical "interaction" (some folks might call it abuse), ie broken bones and the like, or extreme mental "interaction" (again, some might call it abuse), at what point does it become more than just YOUR dynamic?

Is there a point or is it all just a private thing to be kept out of the public eye?


Bones,

Most of us on this path we walk recognize it to be unique and needs to be kept from the puplic eye for their lack of understanding. Also most understand the line that needs to be maintained to keep our path safe and operate in that mode.
The key word here is most.

CP



jujubeeMB -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/19/2010 2:10:38 AM)

I'm a lot less open-minded than a lot of people here, and I'm also - it seems - about 50% more likely to intervene. If someone I know is in any way showing signs of being physically or emotionally/psychologically abused, I'm going to find a way to ask them about it and see if they need help. If they do, the steps are obvious. If they say they don't need help, but continuously show physical or social signs of being seriously injured/abused and don't take steps to make it clear that it's part of a dynamic that they enjoy very much, I'm going to intervene. My mom was a domestic violence worker for fifteen years, and it's the way I was brought up. BDSM is fantastic, and we all enjoy our dynamics, but I believe it is our responsibility as human beings to intervene when someone is being hurt. If it's a healthy relationship/dynamic, it'll survive an intervention without a problem.

And seriously, broken bones? Wrong. Period. Anyone breaking people's bones I don't want in the BDSM clubhouse. It makes us look crazy.



DesFIP -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/19/2010 3:41:48 AM)

The good thing, if it can be called that, about the breaking bones types is that we as bystanders don't have to intervene. The nurses in the ER are trained to determine DV and will step in for us.



kiwisub12 -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/19/2010 4:05:45 AM)

Its true - they have a legal obligation to report SUSPECTED domestic abuse.    Doesn't have to be confirmed - just has to be a likelihood of abuse.



Kana -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/19/2010 6:19:35 AM)

Experience here.
I have a friend who is a hard core maso, as in real hard core. Doesn't play in public because people get too freaked, and that's at what she would call foreplay, not even anything rough.
She has been with the same guy forever. Their relationship crosses back and forth between what I would label abuse and extreme S/M edge play.
He's a huge and brutal guy, as in over 6'5, 300 pounds, highly physical. He;s hurt her badly before and will again in the future. One fine afternoon she looked at me and said, "I expect he will kill me one day."
Not a dramatic statement, not a cry for help, just a calm assessment of the facts as she saw them.
This is a lady who is smart, competent, beautiful, vibrant. She is actively involved in BDSM community (No held hostage and isolated syndrome here) and touches and teaches others. She works in the medical field for Gods sake. She's dated others over the years, had great guys dominate her, but none fill her need the way the brute does.
I don't have to like her decision. I don't have to understand her decision. What I can do is accept the fact that she is a rational person making the decision that she thinks is best in her life. She's a grown woman and entitled to that respect. As a friend, I can give her the right, the dignity, to be right or wrong in her own life.
I think she deserves that.
I know I certainly don't like others making such calls in my life.I do some stuff that others may consider waaaaay out on the edge, but if an outsider wandered in and started telling me what I could/or could not do, I would be deeply offended and it's a safe bet that the intruder would walk away with ears a-blistered.I'm an adult, been one for a long time. I make the decisions that I think are right for me and mine. As long as she willingly consents, then there is no problem.
Again, this is based on the concepts that the people involve aren't insane, minors and that they are competent enough to make rational decisions in their own life.

Now, I can see some people raising some ethical questions re using health insurance to pay for Dr's visits, but that's a different thread.




BonesFromAsh -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/19/2010 7:07:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

Experience here.
I have a friend who is a hard core maso, as in real hard core. Doesn't play in public because people get too freaked, and that's at what she would call foreplay, not even anything rough.
She has been with the same guy forever. Their relationship crosses back and forth between what I would label abuse and extreme S/M edge play.
He's a huge and brutal guy, as in over 6'5, 300 pounds, highly physical. He;s hurt her badly before and will again in the future. One fine afternoon she looked at me and said, "I expect he will kill me one day."
Not a dramatic statement, not a cry for help, just a calm assessment of the facts as she saw them.
This is a lady who is smart, competent, beautiful, vibrant. She is actively involved in BDSM community (No held hostage and isolated syndrome here) and touches and teaches others. She works in the medical field for Gods sake. She's dated others over the years, had great guys dominate her, but none fill her need the way the brute does.
I don't have to like her decision. I don't have to understand her decision. What I can do is accept the fact that she is a rational person making the decision that she thinks is best in her life. She's a grown woman and entitled to that respect. As a friend, I can give her the right, the dignity, to be right or wrong in her own life.
I think she deserves that.


Kana, just curious...have you ever expressed to this woman, your friend, that you don't like or understand her decision but can respect her choice?

quote:


I know I certainly don't like others making such calls in my life.I do some stuff that others may consider waaaaay out on the edge, but if an outsider wandered in and started telling me what I could/or could not do, I would be deeply offended and it's a safe bet that the intruder would walk away with ears a-blistered.I'm an adult, been one for a long time. I make the decisions that I think are right for me and mine. As long as she willingly consents, then there is no problem.
Again, this is based on the concepts that the people involve aren't insane, minors and that they are competent enough to make rational decisions in their own life.
Now, I can see some people raising some ethical questions re using health insurance to pay for Dr's visits, but that's a different thread.




Who decides, other than by legal or medical means, that someone is competent enough to make rational decisions?

Thanks for this post...food for thought you've offered. You and everyone else.



Kana -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/19/2010 7:16:19 AM)

She knows my concerns.(Grins. Heck, I am the worlds worst tongue biter. If I have a strong opinion on something, and see a good reason to share it (like friendship), it's said. I have zero governors.)



crazyml -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/19/2010 7:59:21 AM)

[ Ed for formatting and typo]

Hey Kana,

I totally respect your pont of view, and this response isn't in any way a judgment on your views - just an expression of mine and how I seem them personally.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

Experience here.
I have a friend who is a hard core maso, as in real hard core. Doesn't play in public because people get too freaked, and that's at what she would call foreplay, not even anything rough.
She has been with the same guy forever. Their relationship crosses back and forth between what I would label abuse and extreme S/M edge play.
He's a huge and brutal guy, as in over 6'5, 300 pounds, highly physical. He;s hurt her badly before and will again in the future. One fine afternoon she looked at me and said, "I expect he will kill me one day."
Not a dramatic statement, not a cry for help, just a calm assessment of the facts as she saw them.


It's that last phrase that utterly nails it for me; in my utterly unqualified and subjective opinion, I believe that your friend is mentally ill. This is not meant with any disrespect to her, it's just a statement of my belief about her mental health.

quote:


This is a lady who is smart, competent, beautiful, vibrant. She is actively involved in BDSM community (No held hostage and isolated syndrome here) and touches and teaches others. She works in the medical field for Gods sake. She's dated others over the years, had great guys dominate her, but none fill her need the way the brute does.

Many, many mentally ill people present as smart, competent, beautiful etc. But her "need" for such extreme physical abuse is (in my subjective/unqualified etc etc) a sign of illness.
quote:


I don't have to like her decision. I don't have to understand her decision. What I can do is accept the fact that she is a rational person making the decision that she thinks is best in her life.


I simply cannot agree that accepting regular physical abuse, and having the expectation that your partner will eventually kill you is a rational choice about what is best in your life.

quote:



She's a grown woman and entitled to that respect. As a friend, I can give her the right, the dignity, to be right or wrong in her own life.
I think she deserves that.


But you could put it another way - she's a grown woman and entitled to that respect, and the fact that she is mentally ill doesn't take away from her right to respect.

quote:


I know I certainly don't like others making such calls in my life.I do some stuff that others may consider waaaaay out on the edge, but if an outsider wandered in and started telling me what I could/or could not do, I would be deeply offended and it's a safe bet that the intruder would walk away with ears a-blistered.I'm an adult, been one for a long time. I make the decisions that I think are right for me and mine.


To me, it's not about what your friend would "like" it's about what is in her best interests. Therapy is in her best interests, not regular beatings and eventual murder.

And, you're entitled to be pissed with busy bodies (perhaps lke me!) who say things - and if it came to it I'd take the ear blistering. And if I was wrong (god knows I am wrong a lot) I'd happily apologise - but I'd rather inervene and make an ass of myself than walk on by.

quote:



As long as she willingly consents, then there is no problem.
Again, this is based on the concepts that the people involve aren't insane, minors and that they are competent enough to make rational decisions in their own life.


As a base point it seems we agree on the core - so it's "how do you define sane" that's the key thing here I reckon? I'm being a busybody (an unqualified one at that) by determining (in my limited wisdom) that someone who accepts that situation cannot be making a rational choice.

So at what point would you feel that someone's choice was so irrational that you'd have to conclude they were suffering from mental illness?

Subjectively, while some things might be borderline - regular black eyes, sprains etc. "Likely to be murdered" is comfortably over the line for me.

quote:


Now, I can see some people raising some ethical questions re using health insurance to pay for Dr's visits, but that's a different thread.







xssve -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/19/2010 8:06:08 AM)

It sounds like informed consent - it's hard sometimes, but people do what they're gonna do, all you can do is express your concerns.

As I mentioned in the other thread, in a post that might have been deleted, "danger" is a relative thing - there are few things more dangerous for a woman than getting pregnant, but just guessing, I imagine that at least 80% of women choose to take that risk, repeatedly.

I guess people see BDSM differently because it's "elective", whereas pregnancy is seen more as "mandatory", though ironically, a lot of things done in BDSM may increase your fertility and reduce potential complications in childbirth - there are valid evolutionary arguments for a lot WIIWD.

The global rate of mortality in childbirth is around 1% - doesn't sound like a lot, until you think of it as one woman in 100 - this exceeds the "casualty rate" for BDSM, for all deviant sexual practices combined, by orders of orders of magnitude - there is really no comparison.

The most lethal practice in BDSM by a large margin is autoerotic asphyxiation, and breathplay, while non-invasive, non percussive, etc., it's possibly the most dangerous form of BDSM play there is, even with a partner: done repeatedly, it can cause brain damage, even cardiac arrest.

Anyway, driving a car, or even walking across the street is dangerous too, probably a much greater risk than nearly anything else you can do in BDSM, and I'm a firm believer in personal autonomy, something is going to kill you, eventually.

Having said that, I think there is a difference between risk taking and flat out suicidal behavior, though where that line is is largely a judgment call.



CreativeDominant -> RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy (11/19/2010 8:08:43 AM)

One of the biggest problems I have is the idea of being able to consent to something that "harms" rather than "hurts".  As a healthcare professional, I know where that line is legally.  Personally, that line becomes a bit wavy...what I have to report when I see it is way less than what I would report if seen in a private or social setting and wherein I knew the party consented to it.  In a personal setting, I am going to find out all I can about what is being done and in a personal setting I am going to bring my "social, into BDSM and D/s myself" mind into the matter.  I am allowed to do that in my personal life.  I am not allowed to do it legally.  And at a certain point...my professional mind HAS to enter public settings.  Probably one reason why I would not involve myself with friends such as the one KANA mentioned because I would report such a situation...I would be bound to legally.

That said...I draw the line at things like ultraviolence. (I'm not going to go into all that I draw the line at...suffice it to say that I question myself and where I stand each time I am confronted with something new and "on-the-edge).  Also...because I like my money in MY pocket and don't relish my insurance or tax rates going up because of numerous hospital visits by others in their ideas of "fun" play or "part of our dynamic" play...I think involvement should occur in these cases and not just because the people involved were too dumb to handle what was done by themselves.  If you want to break your submissive's bones and they've given their consent, I question the competence of both of you.  Sorry but that is my opinion and I have the right to it.  And the topic has been endlessly discussed and argued about in here...I recognize that there are people who play way heavier than I ever will and that I can and will play heavier...despite some people's opinion... than others might ever play.  I recognize that the type of control I seek is much more than many dominants/submissives are comfortable with.  Recognition of this also brings with it a recognition of what I consider to be signs of mental incompetence, stupidity, unawareness, or a combination of all these things.  Is that a judgement call?  Sure is.  Do I feel bad about making that judgement call?  Nope...I am willing to take the consequences of involving myself.  I've already stated that the line is different from where I would do so professionally and where I would do so personally...but it is there.




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