RE: Labour take poll lead (Full Version)

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Jaybeee -> RE: Labour take poll lead (11/19/2010 2:12:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

But others might not have a son who can battle the bleeding NHS for them, OK, it's cheap as chips but about as good for your health...

Why I am irked? Simple because I'm working and paying tax, it would be OK for me if they would keep education free, it would be fine if they would give the NHS an overhaul that actually would make them more effective, I wouldn't mind if the money would go to those kids the chavettes use as meal tickets but it doesn't, the kids grow up with the value that it is OK to sponge of the system, they got parents who don't care how well they do in life and they learn from an early age that it's OK to not try and work. And yes, it is wasting money that is needed somewhere else.

I honestly don't grudge anybody their unemployment benefits if they have been made redundant, I don't grudge old people any help or welfare checks, I just think it's damned ineffective to have a system where somebody goes "Alright, I live just as well as if I would take a shitty job, so why should I actually bother to work?" I can understand why they feel this way but it isn't helping the economy or the country.



Had nearly the same convo with a chap in my Dad's GP's waiting room today. There are quite complex, long-term reasons for the apparently undeserving coddling of chavs, single mothers, asylum seekers and so on, right down the line, which are (and have been) practiced by governments of both colours long before you and I were born, have since been under continual refinement, and aren't generally advertised to the public for reasons not dissimilar to a, "They're kids, let's not scare them" way.

Probably best I divulge them in another thread, but let's just say, the fellow in the waiting room, to my very own shock and awe, turned out to be quite a visionary....



LadyConstanze -> RE: Labour take poll lead (11/19/2010 2:22:23 PM)

My vision to solve the chavette breeding problem would be, they can have benefits as long as they are up to date with their birth control injection, that would stop them from breeding manically. Sort of if you can't fend for yourself and your offspring but keep producing offspring, we are helping you to stop as you are obviously not clever enough to use condoms!

I honestly feel sorry for the kids being born into those circumstances, most of them don't ever get a chance and will end up just the same, it's not fair to create such a vicious cycle!




Jaybeee -> RE: Labour take poll lead (11/19/2010 2:34:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

My vision to solve the chavette breeding problem would be, they can have benefits as long as they are up to date with their birth control injection, that would stop them from breeding manically. Sort of if you can't fend for yourself and your offspring but keep producing offspring, we are helping you to stop as you are obviously not clever enough to use condoms!

I honestly feel sorry for the kids being born into those circumstances, most of them don't ever get a chance and will end up just the same, it's not fair to create such a vicious cycle!



That's one of the many, many unspoken policies, "The more kids, the better", regardless of background, race, upbringing etc. They know that more hands, however diminutive the brains to which they are attached, means more ability to win contracts 2-5 decades down the line. They don't really care about the quality of life of those who suffer by being born and raised surplus to immediate requirement; they just know one day they will ALL come in handy.

For what purpose, and just who "they" are, I myself can only speculate, but that's the plan...




DCWoody -> RE: Labour take poll lead (11/19/2010 3:03:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

@Polite, blaming the financial mess on Labour because they were in charge makes no more sense than blaming it on Cons now because they are.



Quite wrong here Woody, the Conservatives inherited Browns mess.  Brown was Chancellor for most of the ten years leading up to the crisis, who else would you blame. He certainly dithered on Northern rock, causing the first run on a UK bank for 150 years.


Balls. Every western nation goes into recession, and in every nation it's the same....people say their government is at fault, all the other nations are just coincidence. The only thing ya can say is that maybe he should've had the banks on a tighter leash, but then ya say Blair should too, and Major, and Thatcher shouldn't've let them loose in the first place...and sure as fuck Cameron weren't suggesting reining them in.

That ya suggest 'he' (Darling by then) dithered with Northern Rock implies to my mind a fundamental misunderstanding of the process.

@Chavs&immigrants....ya, Jay is sort of right right. We have a lacking birth rate, the immigration is what we're lumped with to make up for this, and the coddling is trying to increase it somewhat (with some success). Wrong about the 'surplus' though, current birth rate is ~1.9 per adult woman. Should be fairly clear that need 2 to keep population stable, and in reality it's a little over....not all kids make it to adulthood. Ya gotta consider who's gonna be paying taxes to pay for your pension&NHS when ya retire....and no, the kids of benefit mothers and immigrants don't all grow up to be on benefits, not even slightly.
tl;dr - If ya want less immigration, have more kids.



LadyConstanze -> RE: Labour take poll lead (11/19/2010 3:23:44 PM)

Oh right, so chav kids all grow up to be valuable members of society due to the shining example their parents (or in most cases parent) gave them? You're kidding, if you look at social housing estates, most are 2nd or 3rd generation benefits, getting preggers barely out of school and continuing...

Now those more kids, that are so brilliant for paying the NHS and pensions (you gotta be joking though, do you think you will be able to live from your pension?) how are you going to create jobs for them?

I have less issue with immigrants that are working and encouraging their kids to get the best education possible, than with benefit mothers who produce children as meal tickets (though I guess welfare checks would be the correct term).



Politesub53 -> RE: Labour take poll lead (11/19/2010 5:06:05 PM)

quote:

That ya suggest 'he' (Darling by then) dithered with Northern Rock implies to my mind a fundamental misunderstanding of the process.


Woody, Brown was dithering over whether to call a snap election. Darling didnt act because brown didnt let him. Its well documented in the media. If the men in charge for ten years cant be held responsible then who can ?  The fact remains it happened on Labours watch, Brown even rebuked Cable in the commens when he was asked if the amount of credit in the economy was a problem waiting to happen.




DCWoody -> RE: Labour take poll lead (11/20/2010 10:51:00 AM)

quote:

Oh right, so chav kids all grow up to be valuable members of society


No, not all. Read what I wrote.

@Polite
"Woody, Brown was dithering over whether to call a snap election."

Oh right yes, true.

"Darling didnt act because brown didnt let him."
No.....what? What the hell are you talking about? The 'run' was on the 14th, they asked for help (and got it) on the 12th.

"men in charge for ten years cant be held responsible then who can ?"
The government is not omipotent, they can not be held responsible for everything. The weather, for example....and the financial crisis for another. We have approximately 20 parties contesting the '05 election. Things wouldn't have been any better had any of them won. 48 out of 50 European nations endured recession in 2009, it is completely unreasonable for the inhabitants of any individual nation (with the possible exception of the usa) to blame their government. Your political opponents are not to blame for every bad thing that happens, stop being so american.



LadyConstanze -> RE: Labour take poll lead (11/20/2010 3:27:47 PM)

Oh dear, I am not American, I just don't buy blindly into the Labour BS, especially not Tony's...

Sure a lot of European nations endured recession, oddly enough the UK seems to be very slow to recover - slower than other European countries - but definitely not the fault of the party who was in charge for 10 years? So what? Everything bad that happened under Labour is not Labour's fault but if it's the Tories, go ahead and blame them?

While I'm not happy that Cam is in the driver's seat, I am glad that Brown is out, in fact overjoyed!



Aneirin -> RE: Labour take poll lead (11/20/2010 4:28:01 PM)

I think the problem is Britain is tired and fed up, it seems we are resigning to the fact that Britain is nothing but an island off Europe and an increasingly insignificant one at that. The only place in Britain now that has any effect on the world at large is the city of London who buy and sell our futures for the best profit.

Just look at it, what is Britain, a once proud country now snapping at each other pointing fingers of blame, its the politicians, no it's not, it the north, no it's not its the toffs, no it's not, oh who can we blame next, I know the unemployed for they can't fight back.

What have we got to be proud of, manufacturing is largely gone, everything we have has been sold off and all there is left is unhappy people working long hours in jobs that don't inspire to pay for what societal programming has told them to be successful they need.

So what is there, I know our past, but what use is a past if there is nothing for the future except mealy mouthed politicians lining their own nests.

The long term unemployed lifestyle will not be cured if there are no jobs for the unemployed to go to, but of those jobs if they ever appear, they must be of a certain worth to hold the employee, as a job with no hope is not going to work.

But perhaps it is the tories have something up their sleeve, perhaps a desire to return to the kept work force, those with similarity to the Victorian mills, where Britain first started its industrial revolution, for it is known that if Britain is to again make a go of it, cheap undemanding labour is needed.



LadyConstanze -> RE: Labour take poll lead (11/20/2010 5:07:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin



The long term unemployed lifestyle will not be cured if there are no jobs for the unemployed to go to, but of those jobs if they ever appear, they must be of a certain worth to hold the employee, as a job with no hope is not going to work.




If those jobs ever appear people will take them if it's "Work or you lose your benefits", sorry but why should I bust my butt to work and pay taxes so others can decide that a job might not be worth to get up in the morning if benefits pay just as much? Why should I be punished for working and earning well?

I moved to the UK (again) a couple of years ago, due to my partner and due to my company wanting me here, in terms of quality of life - not a patch on other European countries (not being negative, just the way I see it, and sorry, the NHS is a disaster, thank heavens for a private European health insurance, if I need dental or medical treatment I usually book a flight outside of the country), I love my job and I don't mind putting in 12 or more hours a day if required, but so often I came across the "But it's always been done this way..." mentality and I usually pointed out "But we are dealing internationally, we got to do what the clients require and move forward", so sometimes I just went ahead and implemented stuff, and oh wonder, it worked. I think it is a bit of a mentality problem that often reveals thinking of "We are the Empire" - well if you want to stay relevant you don't rest on past glory but move forward. Don't get me started on the banking system here, that's about as redundant as most of the technology the NHS uses...



Aneirin -> RE: Labour take poll lead (11/20/2010 6:38:20 PM)

I know a few of the ills of this country, for I have also compared it to both Denmark and Sweden, the living standard here is very poor in comparison and that coupled with the work attitude, but wonder if it is the product of a country that was once an Empire.  Take a look at other empires that have been and gone, the Roman Empire, the Greek empire to name just two, look at the countries now that once were the centre of those empires a very far cry from what they were before. In fact look at any country that was the centre of an empire and see what it is now compared to then. Is this what is happening to Britain I wonder.

But there is a mood of discontent in Britain, a feeling perhaps best felt by the poor for whatever this country once was, little if anything filtered down through the ranks, the wealthy still have their ease and poor, well as another said are always to blame. But it is on the backs of the poor that this country was made.

But as to the unemployed, myself I was one for a few years, but as I am an observer of life, I discovered much in my poor years. The long term unemployed, it is a lifestyle, but what does one expect when one is at the bottom, with no hope a mindset sets in that if one cannot improve their lot, then they may as well make the best with what is. The welfare system exists and whilst it exists it will be used, the people claiming are breaking no laws unless it is now thought to be near unlawful to be in receipt of state welfare.

Now perhaps people dont know it, but our common enemy is the media, for they ave gathered information and presented sensationalist stories that have made the populace aware that those on benefits are living the lives of riley, true, for the ones the media hunted for, but by no means the majority, but the newspapers say so, so it must be true. Then the politicians feel the puplic mood from the corporate media and respond directly to what the newspapers have written about, not their own internal abilities, thus indicating the government is pandering to the public feeling and alienating a sector of the population who are what they are through no fault of their own.

Of course tthis new plan is again nothing but hot air as it will not work, when those it attacks have families and where there is the possibilities of children, just picture the condemnation from Europe when it is revealed the government is in its denying benefits for three months three years or whatever actually starving children. Further to that it has already been revealed that the new measures may cost 2 billion more without a certainty of success. Thus indicating this is not about economics, but a war on those who cannot fight back to make the population feel the government are worth their salt. Perhaps that 2 billion extra would be better invested in finding suitable work for the unemployed instead of paying yet more bureaucrats to punish our people.



LadyConstanze -> RE: Labour take poll lead (11/20/2010 7:51:10 PM)

You know, wherever there is a state that looks out for its citizens there will be people who figure out how to beat the system, that's a given and as long as they are not the majority, the good outweighs the bad.

I lived in quite a few countries and different continents, in all fairness, the UK isn't the worst place to live in, but it seems to be one of the places that is very slow to change, I really have no issue with somebody claiming benefits as long as they do their part, a mom raising kids and her scumbag hubby not paying support, by all means, give her help, but people just having children because it means a council flat (or with more than one a house) as a means to avoid working and spending the benefits on booze and fags, that really winds me up. Tobacco and alcohol are luxury products, first things I would give up if I couldn't pay a vet bill, if I had kids I would give it up because it's not good for them to be around those things. In a way I do understand the people caught in the welfare trap, because in all honesty, if one of us would get the same money for not working as we would get for working, yes, most of us would not work. Human nature.

Take what they did to the NHS, they spent billions on computer programs that don't work, at the same time hospitals are in a terrible state, it's all far too bureaucratic, decentralize it but oh no, can't do it, we invented the system, so it is perfect, despite the fact that it is not.

As much as I complain about living here (which has less to do with the UK and more with being oop North), it is a great country and it has so much potential, but most of the potential seems to go to waste because "Why change, it was always like this" - in the time I lived here, I branched out and had an export business that was bought out, it did well simply because nobody else considered it before, as "we don't look at Europe, we do our own thing", I sometimes look at shopping centers and just wonder, really simple things, like a big shopping center but not enough toilets, so if I am at a shopping center and I need to visit the ladies, so I walk for miles across the whole shopping center to find the toilets, I see about 10 other shops on the way, how likely am I to walk miles back to say M&S, John Lewis, Monsoon, Next, Jane Norman and all that to check the rails again? I might just go to Warehouse, Republic, etc. that is nearer and will catch my eye...

Just one example...



Aneirin -> RE: Labour take poll lead (11/20/2010 10:49:30 PM)

Decentralisation is something I am in favour of, as it worked for hundreds of years before the twentieth century where it all it seems is turning to shit. The united kingdom, what is that with Scotland and Wales  breaking away from the union

But perhaps the why change mentality is a symptom of a degraded nation, perhaps an arrogant nation that thinks the world should look up to the British because we once ruled the world.

But one thing you have hit squarely on the head, Britain it seems just loves it's bureacratic madness and there undoubtedly the sink hole for our nations wealth.  But hang on one moment this cost in benefits the country seems to begrudge paying, is that the total sum for the claimants or does that include the bureacrats that administer it and if so I wonder which costs more, the management or what a claimant barely lives on, £64 a week job seekers allowance does not go very far even when scratching to get what one needs at it's cheapest possible and with that unhealthy price, recovered meat, well animal product something or other shapes hidden in bread crumbs, I have been there until I found out where the immigrants shop.

This new idea to punish the unemployed, two billion more it is going to cost the taxpayer, why, when it is they will be reducing what is paid to claimants, oh, I get it, two billion more to pay for more bureacrats to haha, save money.[8|]

It would be interesting to find out what the total cost of bureacracy is in this country and with it, it's often index linked pension plan.

But I hear you with regards the lavatory situation, for all those that I remembered from my youth that were public, have now gone, boarded up or pulled down and with that, the reason not to have them in shopping centres is for the fear of terrorist action, just like the litter bins that have disappeared from our streets.

Britain I fear is slowly sliding down the toilet.



DCWoody -> RE: Labour take poll lead (11/25/2010 9:32:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
Sure a lot of European nations endured recession, oddly enough the UK seems to be very slow to recover - slower than other European countries

Slower than some, faster than others. Some nations are still in recession a year after we left it, considering our huge financial sector we did quite well.

quote:

but definitely not the fault of the party who was in charge for 10 years?

Right. As I said, the government is not omnipotent.

quote:

So what? Everything bad that happened under Labour is not Labour's fault but if it's the Tories, go ahead and blame them?

No. READ WHAT I WRITE DO NOT PUT WORDS INTO MY MOUTH.


@Aneirin "manufacturing is largely gone"
The UK is the 6th largest manufacturer in the world.

"The long term unemployed lifestyle will not be cured if there are no jobs for the unemployed to go to, but of those jobs if they ever appear, they must be of a certain worth to hold the employee"

I have wondered if some sort of negative income tax could be helpful. Let people work for less than national minimum, govt tops up...say, 50% of the difference between that and minimum wage....there are all sorts of problems to work around, but I reckon something useful could be done along those lines.



hertz -> RE: Labour take poll lead (11/25/2010 2:21:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

@Hertz, do you even read your own posts? Are you actually suggesting the new government is intentionally destroying the country? How does spouting such tosh help anything?



Obviously they don't think they're destroying it. They think they're dismantling the welfare state and handing it over to their mates in the city so someone can make a profit, and that somehow, magically, everything will be fixed if we all stop eating for a while. To my mind, that's bound to end in total disaster and will end up screwing everything up. But thanks for seeking clarification of what I was saying before dismissing it out of hand. It all counts.


I'm really going to struggle at the next election. My local constituency is a healthy marginal, held by the Lib Dems over the Tories. Obviously, I can't vote Lib Dem, on account of them being lying bastards. And I can't vote Tory, even if it will unseat the Lib Dem, on account of them being a bunch of cunts (can I say cunt in this forum?). And I can't vote for Labour because it would be a wasted vote and I need more convincing that Milliband is actually going to kill the stoopid New Labour project. That leaves the Greens. Likeable hippies, but a wasted vote. What the hell can I do? I'm disenfranchised.



Moonhead -> RE: Labour take poll lead (11/25/2010 2:29:50 PM)

The BNP? They seem to be big with people who feel disenfranchised.
I wouldn't dismiss Labour as a wasted vote, either. The main reason they're enjoying an upswing is because everybody who voted libdem in outrage over the Iraq adventure and everything that went with it isn't likely to ever vote for Cameron's bitch again.



hertz -> RE: Labour take poll lead (11/25/2010 2:38:16 PM)

I'll certainly never vote LIb Dem again. I always have, as a tactic to keep the Tories out. But what's the point when it just keeps the Tories in? Obviously BNP are a no-no, on account of me liking black people and Muslims (except for the rude ones, obviously). Ditto EDF or whatever their stoopid name is.

I'm even tempted to vote against the PR thing if it ever comes to a referendum. Why would I vote for a system that ensures the Tories and their Tory-lite mates will always be in power?



Moonhead -> RE: Labour take poll lead (11/25/2010 2:42:49 PM)

I don't think the EDF are even a political party who stand in elections: just a bunch of obnoxious racist twats too vile for the BNP to want anything to do with them. The fact that the teabaggers in the 'States seem to be trying to forge an alliance with the wankers tells you all you need to know about them.



allthatjaz -> RE: Labour take poll lead (11/26/2010 3:45:53 AM)

For those of you that moan about the unemployed scroungers, I suggest you read the Poor Law reforms of the 1830’s and see the comparisons!
Traditional careers have become just a memory. The idea of a career for our up and coming youngsters is more or less redundant.
We have lost all sense of what ‘family unit’ means and I would be interested in peoples opinions as to why you think that is?
20th century politics are directly responsible for making our economy unstable and perhaps that’s irreversible?
This free market has not protected our economy or has the slightest comprehension of human needs. We have been given false security and we have lost all identity.
Privatization is what fucked this country up and so lets not blame the immigrants, the low skilled workers who were tempted by a false middle class dream and the poor fuckers on Job Seekers allowance that have little hope of a future career.




Moonhead -> RE: Labour take poll lead (11/26/2010 5:34:16 AM)

No argument with any of that, but sadly blaming somebody else is always easier than looking at the problems.



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