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RE: The Ghailani Verdict - 11/22/2010 4:09:51 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
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Status: offline 		Well, he was convicted, I am sure he will be at the saturday night square dance and he will be the one wearing the bows in his hair and the dress. Now, if our legal advisor is correct the entire roster of the  CIA has had their cover blown....
There was no issue of classified information.
Somebody thought that torturing a confession went beyond the miranda warning.

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RE: The Ghailani Verdict - 11/22/2010 7:34:17 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Somebody thought that torturing a confession went beyond the miranda warning.



Dammit, Ron! You are so good at getting right to the heart of the matter (without the usual layers you are so known for), and posting it where I'll see it when I need to getting out the door for work.

I'll get back to this.

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RE: The Ghailani Verdict - 11/22/2010 11:03:06 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Okey-dokey, then.

Exactly, Ron. Somebody. Or maybe several somebodies. We have two seperate things to address when we catch these guys. Only one of them has to do with securing a conviction. The other priority, easily more important, is getting them to tell us the things we need to know.

Now I know damn well that you can torture anybody until they tell you any insanity you want to hear, but I also know that some jobs are going to require a big hammer (or a credible threat of it). I'm willing to leave that discretion to people with better facts and perspective. What a squeamish juror might think shouldn't be part of the decision making process.

Even if we exclude the fruit of the poison tree, somebody on a civilian jury is easily going to have an issue with that. Maybe even lie their way into the box, with an agenda. My guess is that something like that is what got us here.

With some of these prisoners, I wonder if they ever should have been brought in from the battlefield. Likely, we'll get fewer crusaders in a military system.






_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: The Ghailani Verdict - 11/23/2010 2:48:30 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

somebody on a civilian jury is easily going to have an issue with that


Hello.

So is somebody on a military court. Same Constitution and all.

It's not the civilian part that troubles folks--it's the court part.


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RE: The Ghailani Verdict - 11/23/2010 10:01:27 AM   
luckydawg


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Status: offline 		Which is why I am glad that Obama has decided to simply kill people like this along with thier families instead of capturing and giving them a trial of any sort.


and the same people who are demanding civilian trials are supporters of having the families of suspected terrorists killed in drone attacks.

Its a crazy world.

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RE: The Ghailani Verdict - 11/23/2010 10:49:11 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Which is why I am glad that Obama has decided to simply kill people like this along with thier families instead of capturing and giving them a trial of any sort.


and the same people who are demanding civilian trials are supporters of having the families of suspected terrorists killed in drone attacks.

Its a crazy world.


Your post, as usual, is nonsense. I agree with civilian trials, I agree with going after the KNOWN terrorists, I have also spoken out about drone attacks on the wrong targets. So have many others on here.

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RE: The Ghailani Verdict - 11/23/2010 2:42:56 PM   
luckydawg


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Status: offline 		It's not about drone mistakes, but the policy of killing suspects, with no trial, by drones ususally taking out bystanders (often Children).

That you are trying to pretend otherwise is rather sad.




But since it is clear that Obama's word that they deserve to die with no trial is good enough for you.


Pretending you care about trials or due process or rights is just funny.

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: The Ghailani Verdict - 11/23/2010 2:58:17 PM   
luckydawg


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Status: offline 		But leftists and democratics can rejoice in the fact that they families of this monster's victims will have to testify at Parole Meetings every few years.

and this piece of shit terrorist will get to be like Mumia Jammal, and be a hero/symbol of American Oppresssion.

He can write letters, communicate through his lawyers, unless he is going to be treated differantly than other.

I guess he can even release an album if he likes.



America can decide if that's the way we want to go.


Muse seems to think evidence gathering is a vital part of military operations.

Got to knock and serve warrants before an attack if you want to detain anyone.

I doubt most Americans agree.








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RE: The Ghailani Verdict - 11/23/2010 3:19:07 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg
But leftists and democratics can rejoice in the fact that they families of this monster's victims will have to testify at Parole Meetings every few years.


Not for at least 20 years from now, if he lives that long.
We also rejoice in the entire CIA being outed.  Republicans and rightists are too busy in the airport bathrooms sucking each other off to pay much attention to this, in fact, I am surprised you aren't on shift..

quote:


and this piece of shit terrorist will get to be like Mumia Jammal, and be a hero/symbol of American Oppresssion.

Never heard of the first, and can't remember the name of the this guy we are talking about.  But I think the entire families we've wiped out in Iraq for no reason is going to provide enough symbolism that this is a non-starter.

quote:


He can write letters, communicate through his lawyers, unless he is going to be treated differantly than other.

And  if he is not treated any differently than another it will be censored.

quote:


I guess he can even release an album if he likes.

I hope it does better than Cat Stevens last one.
quote:




America can decide if that's the way we want to go.

We decided that sometime ago, there was a scrap of paper.........
started out We, the people.........or some stupid shit like that.
Muse seems to think evidence gathering is a vital part of military operations.

Got to knock and serve warrants before an attack if you want to detain anyone.

quote:


I doubt most Americans agree.


E pluribus and all that shit.......









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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: The Ghailani Verdict - 11/23/2010 3:57:05 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

It's not about drone mistakes, but the policy of killing suspects, with no trial, by drones ususally taking out bystanders (often Children).

That you are trying to pretend otherwise is rather sad.




But since it is clear that Obama's word that they deserve to die with no trial is good enough for you.


Pretending you care about trials or due process or rights is just funny.


Not as funny as pretending you are not a troll, or ever have a point to make eh ?

You mentioned the word mistakes, not me, I mentioned the wrong targets, IE the innocents. You seem incapable of making a post about what I wrote, and continue to make it about what you like to suggest I wrote, you are pathetic.

You also fail to mention drone attacks were carried out under the previous administration, but hey, nothing new there with your constant attacks on Obama.

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: The Ghailani Verdict - 11/23/2010 4:01:29 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg


Muse seems to think evidence gathering is a vital part of military operations.

Got to knock and serve warrants before an attack if you want to detain anyone.

I doubt most Americans agree.




What an idiotic comment, given it is a complete about turn of your comments to me about law. What was that crap you said about "Pretending to care acout trials or DUE PROCESS" You cant select just the bits that suit you.

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: The Ghailani Verdict - 11/23/2010 4:13:05 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Muse seems to think evidence gathering is a vital part of military operations.


Nope. Part of taking a case to trial.

If you're going to have courts, military or otherwise, that's how it works.

As I said earlier, your problem isn't with the civilian aspect--it's with the court aspect.

If you want to just shoot them, don't pretend to have a trial. In the U.S., military courts aren't kangaroo courts. Constitution and all that shit. It's how we do things here in America.


The point I initially made is that trying this in a military court would have made no difference--same problem with the evidence.

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: The Ghailani Verdict - 11/23/2010 6:13:38 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

The point I initially made is that trying this in a military court would have made no difference--same problem with the evidence.



That's bullshit, Muse, and I think you know it. The tainted evidence was excluded. We knew who this fucker was, and had the evidence to put him on trial before we ever caught his ass. A criminal case was not the top priority though, and it shouldn't have been. Somebody had a stick up their ass about it, and wanted to make a statement anyway. That is less likely to be an issue with a military commission.



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: The Ghailani Verdict - 11/23/2010 7:47:31 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		It is NOT bullshit. All a military trial would have changed is allowing classified evidence. The tainted evidence would still be an issue.

If you want to have a court, any kind of a court, it still conforms to U.S. law. Don't take my word for it--look into it yourself.

Now, if ya'll want to take the position "Look, he's guilty, why are we wasting time with a trial," that's a different matter--and a different country.

In any event, he's convicted. Next.

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: The Ghailani Verdict - 11/23/2010 8:05:01 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

All a military trial would have changed is allowing classified evidence.



No. It would also involve a panel of professionals making up the jury, instead of castoffs from the OJ pool (either one). Emotional appeals and attempts at jury nullification have no place in these proceedings.

Another reason to keep these cases out of civilian courts ought to matter to the people so concerned with propriety. What happens to the image of our justice system if one of these murdering asshats is aquitted, and we keep him in jail anyway?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: The Ghailani Verdict - 11/23/2010 8:10:24 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

What happens to the image of our justice system if one of these murdering asshats is acquitted, and we keep him in jail anyway?


That would speak to the reality of how we view the justice system, not its image.

Bringing us back to the point that it's not the venue that bothers people, but having a trial at all.

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: The Ghailani Verdict - 11/23/2010 9:00:08 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Sleep well tonight, Muse, in the knowledge that cold-blooded pragmatists are doing their best to keep your ungrateful ass safe and free.

When it comes to the war that is going on, I want drone strikes, and night raids, and secret prisons that we actually keep secret, and have already put out a press release that the inmates there are dead. I want these fuckers to be afraid of what they decided play with. (I also want all troops except special forces, and enough Marines to secure the airports, out of Afghanistan last month

I think trials in the proper venue are very appropriate, when they are appropriate, but that should never be the priority.

Go ahead with your mob rule cliche' and the other side of the page will say that the Constitution isn't a suicide pact.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 11/23/2010 9:01:01 PM >

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: The Ghailani Verdict - 11/23/2010 9:08:17 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Nor did I argue any of that, O Straw Man Maker.

I'm pointing out that what happened in civilian court in this case would have likely happened in military court as well, for the same reason.

Not that we should invite bin Laden to tea.

Come on. You aren't this stupid.

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: The Ghailani Verdict - 11/23/2010 9:20:12 PM   
Brain


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I agree with what Rachel and her guest said on her show if you're genuinely interested to know what went on. What went on is they didn't admit evidence obtained by torture.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/ns/msnbc_tv-rachel_maddow_show/#31195285


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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: The Ghailani Verdict - 11/23/2010 9:21:37 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I'm pointing out that what happened in civilian court in this case would have likely happened in military court as well, for the same reason.




I'm talking about the verdict that came out of the jury room, Muse. Are you talking about the judge tossing the evidence? If not, how do you figure a a military panel instead of a civilian jury is just as likely to have an agendized kook aboard?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 40
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