RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention

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Aneirin -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (11/30/2010 7:55:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras I don't wish to continue to criticise Teakabelle but I'm sorry this stuff is too much to ignore. quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Please excuse me if i dont get into the kill ratio discussion for the time being. I find the whole discussion gruesome. Rather i would like to express my appreciation to MasterNJ20 for his agreement that those who fired white phosphorous and used human shields should be charged and tried. It doesn't suit you to discuss the death toll ratio which you describe as "gruesome" but you continue to repeatedly smear Israel with accusations of "war crimes" and lovingly go into detail so I would say it is all just a bit convenient. I am so sorry to have inconvenienced you Anaxagoras. And so sad that you cannot understand why someone might find the very idea of a 'kill ratio' gruesome. And so sorry that you don't find it gruesome too. Because it says so much about you. You like detail? Of kill ratios? OK. Here's one detail: The writer William Dalrymple tells of visiting a hospital in Beirut about the time of the Israeli siege. He noticed 3 buckets, with the corpses of infants, newly born tiny babies in them. Filled to the brim with water. He enquired about them. The poor infants had lain in those buckets stone cold dead for three days. They were vicitims of white phosphorous, courtesy of your friends in Israel that I smeared. Everytime the infants were removed from the buckets, Dalrymple was told by the nurses, they spontaneously ignited from the white phosphorous embedded in their tiny dead bodies. Kill ratio: 0:3 Does that appal you? Does that horrify you? Does that make your blood boil? Does that infuriate you? Does that make you want to string the bastards responsible up? Does it make the hair on your neck stand up? Does it turn your stomach? Does it make you disgusted that you are a member of the same species responsible for this act? Does it enrage you? Does it make you want to throw up? To scream with horror? Do you shed tears? Are you sick to the very core of your existence? Do you resolve to try to make sure that this never happens again? Ever? They are just some of my reactions. I hope you share them. I really do. Because if your answer to any of those questions is a 'no', you have very serious issues and you need help. Seriously. Badly. Perhaps now you have an insight into why I find the mention of 'kill ratios' gruesome. Because hidden behind the clinical sanitised numbers, the detached words, at the very core of the concept is a death. A horrible death. Of a human being. An innocent human being. A pointless meaningless totally unnecessary totally avoidable death. A death marked by excruciating terror and unimaginable pain. In this instance 3 defenceless tiny babies. Oh yes it's all there in the kill ratio of 0:3, isn't it? Captures it in "loving detail" as you so sensitively put it. That is the reality of kill ratios and collateral damage Anaxagoras. Every time. Every single time. The age of the victims might vary. The location. But the tragedy is invariable. Constant. Every one of them dies. DIES STONE COLD DEAD. Where you choose to live is up to you. You can even live in a world marked out by 'superior' kill ratios and 'acceptable' levels of collateral damage if you so choose. That is your right. But please, Anaxagoras, please do not try to drag me into your cesspit. I ABSOLUTELY refuse to go there. Well done to Tweakabelle for bringing the realities of what killing is beyond sanitised numbers, for numbers relate nothing of the pain and suffering those who were unfortunate to become the statistics that the uncaring and unconnected bandy about to make their irrelevant points in conversations, where they themselves are just not affected beyond ideology. Premeditated actions that lead to the deaths of human beings is just plain sick, and I wonder why it is we are so easily brainwashed by flags and speeches to commit such acts against our own species, a species that was designed and created to create life not destroy it, that indicated by the fact that we have in built functions for the creation of life but not death. The only way we can kill, is by the misuse of our minds and hands, they capable of such goodness, why do we have to insult the creator with using its tools for the wanton death and destruction of its property for no other reason than we just cannot get along.

luckydawg -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (11/30/2010 8:52:10 PM)
So Tweakabelle, I take it you refuse to answer a simple direct question. "And if you could, please answer me a Direct question. Are you in agreement with the UNHRC and one of the leaders of the mission, that there was no Genocide in Darfur? " The reason is rather obvious. Either you are a monster who denies the Genocide in Sudan. Or you admit the UN makes these "human Rights Findings" based on Politics.

Anaxagoras -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (11/30/2010 9:11:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin Well done to Tweakabelle for bringing the realities of what killing is beyond sanitised numbers, for numbers relate nothing of the pain and suffering those who were unfortunate to become the statistics that the uncaring and unconnected bandy about to make their irrelevant points in conversations, where they themselves are just not affected beyond ideology. Premeditated actions that lead to the deaths of human beings is just plain sick, and I wonder why it is we are so easily brainwashed by flags and speeches to commit such acts against our own species, a species that was designed and created to create life not destroy it, that indicated by the fact that we have in built functions for the creation of life but not death. The only way we can kill, is by the misuse of our minds and hands, they capable of such goodness, why do we have to insult the creator with using its tools for the wanton death and destruction of its property for no other reason than we just cannot get along. Anerin, there is nothing sanitised about numbers. If I say 300+ civilians died then that is 300 people which died - there is absolutely nothing being made more palatable in such an assertion. Numbers are used in propaganda for that very reason. Not only that but the numbers are important facts and as such should be used in informed discussion which Tweakabelle objects to as presumably do you. At this stage it seems to me that despite all the points to the contrary about the low civilian casualty figures etc. you are set against Israel and that is it. Despite your talk about there being decent people in Israel you have never acknowledged any significant point in Israel's favour such as having the lowest civilian kill ratio in the world and would rather spout rubbish about a creator, hands creating goodness etc. If you really feel that way you should be objecting at least as much to children being thought to hate in the Palestinian territories. If you care even remotely about such things you should look up a site like Palwatch.

MasterNJ20 -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (11/30/2010 9:13:50 PM)
The reason the statistics are needed is because war happens. War is horrible, yes. The question being whether or not Israel has acted more careless or more evil than other armies of the day. Statistics allow us that comparison. Evoking an emotional response to make one side look like murderers compared to the rest of the world is wrong when that side is no worse than the rest of the world. Statistics gives us that ability to compares "well was there an unusual amount of civilian death?". There isn't. For a densely populated area there really is not an unusual amount of civilian death for a war. To point out to these deaths and call Israel murderers does nothing to bring peace and helps perpetuate the cycle of violence. You can paint a human face on it all you want. Any moral first world nation's wars will look just like Israels. .From a statistical stand point: Since 2000 about 67% of Palestinian deaths are civilian. Since 2000 about 70% of Israeli deaths are civilian. The majority of fighting occurs inside of Palestinian areas where collateral damage will hit Palestinians significantly harder than Israelis. From a human perspective: Nearly half of all Palestinians support the killing of Israeli civilians Recently a pregnant woman was murdered by Palestinians in an area that was guarded by a road block until days before her killing. I want peace. I believe most Israelis and 51% of Palestinians agree with this sentiment. Calling the Israeli army murders is only true if NATO, the US, Britain, and nearly every army that's been to war in the past 50 years is also murderous. Israel is fighting a plain clothes irregular force willing to fire from schools, mosques and hospitals. Willing to use ambulances as suicide bombs. Israel will make mistakes, its soldiers will get frustrated and disobey orders. In fact your painted human face occurred during an excessively clean operation. In a time where collateral damage was 10 civilian deaths to 1 militant, Israel's 1982 war was far below this number. In an era where armies would kill 10 innocents to kill 1 soldier Israel killed 2 innocents to kill 1 soldier. War is bad. Be against war, not against Israel.

luckydawg -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (11/30/2010 9:20:04 PM)
What's really sad is that the Europeon Left has hated Isreal since the PLO signed up with the USSR. The Palestinian people have been victimized so much by thier leaders and outside supporters. It is really a crime. THe people in Gaza are controlled by murderous thugs, who did win an election, but then killed thier opponenets and siezed full power. No one can claim Hamas to be a democratic group. Unless they hate jews so much they support the extra judicial shootings of Dissidents.

tweakabelle -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (11/30/2010 10:25:16 PM)
quote: And if you could, please answer me a Direct question. Are you in agreement with the UNHRC and one of the leaders of the mission, that there was no Genocide in Darfur? Luckydawg. I'd be delighted to answer that question and any others you may have if you can demonstrate their relevance to a thread called :" 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention". Please excuse my delayed response.

luckydawg -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (11/30/2010 10:29:54 PM)
I already included the reason. You think the Goldstone report and the UNHRC is relevant to this discussion. and One of the memebers of the commsion and the UNHRC "fact finded" in Darfur also. and came up with a ridiculous conclusion, clearly driven by Politics. That being no Genocide has occured. So it is very relevant to the "evidence" you cite.

tweakabelle -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (12/1/2010 12:38:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydawg I already included the reason. You think the Goldstone report and the UNHRC is relevant to this discussion. and One of the memebers of the commsion and the UNHRC "fact finded" in Darfur also. and came up with a ridiculous conclusion, clearly driven by Politics. That being no Genocide has occured. So it is very relevant to the "evidence" you cite. 1. The Goldstone Report is one of many sources of evidence that support allegations of Israeli war crimes. "You think .......... the UNHRC is relevant to this discussion." To date, I have mentioned the UNHRC once in passing. I have not expressed any opinion on its activities. Therefore I can only conclude you are imagining what I think. Please do not ascribe opinions to me that I have not expressed, thank you. 2. The UNHRC Report on Darfur can stand or fall on its own merits. As I am not terribly familiar with it, I am not in a position to express an opinion as to its merits or demerits. While you are free to think whatever you please, to assert that the Report's conclusion is "ridiculous" based on a single piece of evidence is a shoddy approach intellectually. May I suggest that you apply a higher standard of proof in the future, if only to prevent others forming a view that your arguments are lightweight. If you feel Darfur or the UNHRC Darfur Report is a topic worthy of discussion, please initiate a thread on the matter. While contributing to this thread, kindly stay on topic. Any relevance of the tragedy in Darfur to this thread, on the basis of the evidence you have supplied to date, is tenuous in my view. Unless you can supply something a little more convincing I suggest you focus your efforts on the topic here, which, may I remind you is: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention ie. an Israeli war crime.

hertz -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (12/1/2010 1:59:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterNJ20 Statistics allow us that comparison. .From a statistical stand point: Since 2000 about 67% of Palestinian deaths are civilian. Since 2000 about 70% of Israeli deaths are civilian. Just to put your statistics into context, Since 2000 about 6,500 Palestinians have been murdered by Israeli forces Since 2000 about 1000 Israelis have been murdered by Palestinian militants Based on your percentages (I can't be bothered to check them) Since 2000, Israel has killed about 4355 Palestinian civilians Since 2000, Palestinian militants have killed about 700 Israeli civilians That's a ratio of 1:6. For every Israeli civilian killed in the conflict, there are 6 Palestinian civilians killed by the IDF's miraculous civilian-avoiding military machine. It is worth noting that 99% of the Palestinians killed were killed on their own land. 45% of the Israelis killed were killed whilst attempting to occupy someone else's land. Statistics. quote: From a human perspective: Nearly half of all Palestinians support the killing of Israeli civilians 64% of Israelis support continued occupation of Palestinian lands. I was unable to find a poll to suggest the numbe of israelis who think all palestinians shuld be genocided. I imagine it may be at least as high as your invented figure for Palestinians wanting to see Israelis killed. quote: Recently a pregnant woman was murdered by Palestinians in an area that was guarded by a road block until days before her killing. You've mentioned this twice now. I'm going to mention it as well. The names have been changed to protect the innocent. [img]http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/1-shot-2-kills.jpg[/img] One shot, two kills. See what they've done there? Hilarious! http://archive.thepeninsulaqatar.com/component/content/article/342-gulfmiddle-eastaarchiveafrica/100040.html quote: In an era where armies would kill 10 innocents to kill 1 soldier Israel killed 2 innocents to kill 1 soldier. We've already discussed this. No, they didn't. quote: War is bad. Be against war, not against Israel. Israel is war. That's what it does. That's all it does.

tweakabelle -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (12/1/2010 2:42:46 AM)
Congratulations Luckydawg! You have been reported for your abusive and obnoxious suggestion that I am a racist and a liar. I find your behaviour totally unacceptable. You are the first (and I hope the last) person to force me to adopt this course of action. I will not tolerate any suggestion from anyone that I am a racist of any sort. I find it repugnant. It is defamatory. Lies, abuse and intimidation are no substitute for argument. Not your lucky day it seems .......

Moonhead -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (12/1/2010 12:53:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin Well done to Tweakabelle for bringing the realities of what killing is beyond sanitised numbers, for numbers relate nothing of the pain and suffering those who were unfortunate to become the statistics that the uncaring and unconnected bandy about to make their irrelevant points in conversations, where they themselves are just not affected beyond ideology. Premeditated actions that lead to the deaths of human beings is just plain sick, and I wonder why it is we are so easily brainwashed by flags and speeches to commit such acts against our own species, a species that was designed and created to create life not destroy it, that indicated by the fact that we have in built functions for the creation of life but not death. The only way we can kill, is by the misuse of our minds and hands, they capable of such goodness, why do we have to insult the creator with using its tools for the wanton death and destruction of its property for no other reason than we just cannot get along. Anerin, there is nothing sanitised about numbers. If I say 300+ civilians died then that is 300 people which died - there is absolutely nothing being made more palatable in such an assertion. Numbers are used in propaganda for that very reason. Not only that but the numbers are important facts and as such should be used in informed discussion which Tweakabelle objects to as presumably do you. At this stage it seems to me that despite all the points to the contrary about the low civilian casualty figures etc. you are set against Israel and that is it. Despite your talk about there being decent people in Israel you have never acknowledged any significant point in Israel's favour such as having the lowest civilian kill ratio in the world and would rather spout rubbish about a creator, hands creating goodness etc. If you really feel that way you should be objecting at least as much to children being thought to hate in the Palestinian territories. If you care even remotely about such things you should look up a site like Palwatch. quote: ORIGINAL: Uncle Joe Stalin One death is a tragedy. A million deaths are a statistic.

hertz -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (12/1/2010 1:07:01 PM)
quote: ...you have never acknowledged any significant point in Israel's favour such as having the lowest civilian kill ratio in the world They could use this as a selling point - maybe come up with a natty slogan or something. How about: Israel - killing fewer civilians than the other evil bastards or maybe Come to lovely Israel - home of the lowest civilian kill ratio in the world, evva!

Anaxagoras -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (12/1/2010 2:23:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hertz quote: ...you have never acknowledged any significant point in Israel's favour such as having the lowest civilian kill ratio in the world They could use this as a selling point - maybe come up with a natty slogan or something. How about: Israel - killing fewer civilians than the other evil bastards or maybe Come to lovely Israel - home of the lowest civilian kill ratio in the world, evva! Pour as much scorn or sarcasm (the lowest form of wit BTW) on the stastics as you like but it won't change the simple fact that Israel makes more effort to avoid civilian casualties than any other state. That is an inconvenient fact for you and others on here have repeatedly stated they are indescriminately killing Palestinians and not just in times of war. The statistics prove otherwise. Pro-Palestinians can mock them, dismiss them, try to redraw them or simply lie about them as much as they like but I hope at least a few will see that it takes great effort on the part of Israel to minimise civilian casualties and as such this proves they are not the barbaric savages so many shady figures with questionable motives try to portray them as. We need some honesty in this debate if there is ever to be genuine justice and the very fact that there is so much emotional blackmail, lies and dismissal to avoid confronting very basic facts shows what pro-Pelstinians are like.

hertz -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (12/1/2010 2:29:16 PM)
Say it all you want, Anaxagoras - the numbers tell a very different story.

Anaxagoras -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (12/1/2010 2:34:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin Well done to Tweakabelle for bringing the realities of what killing is beyond sanitised numbers, for numbers relate nothing of the pain and suffering those who were unfortunate to become the statistics that the uncaring and unconnected bandy about to make their irrelevant points in conversations, where they themselves are just not affected beyond ideology. Premeditated actions that lead to the deaths of human beings is just plain sick, and I wonder why it is we are so easily brainwashed by flags and speeches to commit such acts against our own species, a species that was designed and created to create life not destroy it, that indicated by the fact that we have in built functions for the creation of life but not death. The only way we can kill, is by the misuse of our minds and hands, they capable of such goodness, why do we have to insult the creator with using its tools for the wanton death and destruction of its property for no other reason than we just cannot get along. Anerin, there is nothing sanitised about numbers. If I say 300+ civilians died then that is 300 people which died - there is absolutely nothing being made more palatable in such an assertion. Numbers are used in propaganda for that very reason. Not only that but the numbers are important facts and as such should be used in informed discussion which Tweakabelle objects to as presumably do you. At this stage it seems to me that despite all the points to the contrary about the low civilian casualty figures etc. you are set against Israel and that is it. Despite your talk about there being decent people in Israel you have never acknowledged any significant point in Israel's favour such as having the lowest civilian kill ratio in the world and would rather spout rubbish about a creator, hands creating goodness etc. If you really feel that way you should be objecting at least as much to children being thought to hate in the Palestinian territories. If you care even remotely about such things you should look up a site like Palwatch. quote: ORIGINAL: Uncle Joe Stalin One death is a tragedy. A million deaths are a statistic. I take your point Moonhead that numbers can be de-personalised but if numbers really are so meaningless, why did Hamas lie, pro-Palestinian NGO's lie etc. about the real casualty figures? My point above is that the figures are a useful propaganda tool for these people. This is because they must carry genuine meaning and emotive value for that to be so. I can't accept that saying there was a lower civilian to casualty death toll implicitely disrespects or make light of the many dead - it doesn't - it just sets the record straight with regard to the intent of the IDF which is misrepresented all the time.

Anaxagoras -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (12/1/2010 2:42:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hertz Say it all you want, Anaxagoras - the numbers tell a very different story. Here we go again - I guess I'll have to repeat myself. The numbers say one thing that 700 Hamas militants were killed. As stated repeatedly above Hamad said those killed at the police stations were also Hamas rather than civilians of security services which he categorised differently. A number of combatants from other terrorist groups were also killed which are probably amongst the 100+ death that could not be identified as either civilian or combatant. That means that amongst the death toll significantly more than half of all combatants were combatants. Such a low civilian death rate, as tragic as it is could only be possible in densely populated areas with an army that takes immense care. Citing injuries as Hertz has done is an absurdity since many instances of injury do not occur as a result of targetting. He also pretends all that are injured are automatically civilian.

tweakabelle -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (12/1/2010 7:09:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterNJ20 Mea Culpa, I was doing a quick reply and didn't realize the reference and thought we were still talking about Cast Lead. But yes, Palestinian leadership has been known to fake brutal deaths for publicity. I have tried to investigate with earnest the 1982 Lebanon war. Robert Frisk's name keeps coming up as the primary source of this information. Besides this is the Human Rights Watch which wish to criticize retroactively for Israel's use in 1982 because of continued allegations in 93. This means we must hold Israel to moral, not legal standards. The moral standards of the time (80-90's) were ten civilian casualties to one militant casualty. I apologize again for my quick reply earlier, I misread and misinterpreted your post. First I accept your apology totally. It takes a special person to own up fully and frankly and that you did says very nice things about you. Please bear with me then for a moment as I focus on the implications of your knee jerk response rather than the detail. Knee jerk responses can occur when the data is viewed from a pre-determined position, when that position causes someone to interpret the data through bias and read the facts to suit their bias/predetermined position. Please do me the favour of thinking through the implications of this. For me, there is another aspect to the moral dilemma surrounding these issues. It is surely the case that the choices of weapons, tactics and strategies all have effects that are to some extent predictable. Israel has the full array of military hardware to choose from. It has an army, a navy, an air force, and an extensive security apparatus. It has at its disposal every anti-terrorist option going. Choosing to deploy artillery, aerial bombing and missiles in urban areas is going to cause civilian casualties. It's virtually guaranteed, surely inevitable, no matter how precise or scrupulous the targeting procedures or how rigorously they are applied. It is also the case that there are other options and strategies that eliminate in advance the kind of risks that choosing artillery, missiles and aerial bombing in civilian areas involves. These strategies and options have been used successfully elsewhere (eg. Ulster). Israel has been striving to eliminate what it calls "terrorism" for decades now - in other words unsuccessfully to date. Hamas, Islamic Jihad and others are still around and active, whereas the IRA - well I am uncertain if the IRA still exists. Israel has consistently adopted a military approach to the Palestinian issue. Many argue that military responses to terrorism on their own are doomed to failure. As it's stated goal is to eliminate terrorism, Israel's choices guarantee not only civilian deaths on an unknown scale, but ultimately failure. This seems to me to carry grave implications for the Israeli moral position.

luckydawg -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (12/1/2010 10:58:11 PM)
More lies. Israels stated Goal is to survive. And they are. Despite the many nations around it trying to have it destroyed Israel has participated in Many Diplomatic initiatives, including pulling out of Golan, Sianai, Southern Lebanon, and GAZA. All were then used as missle launching bases. I am sorry that you support Human shields and Praise Hamas for using them. It garuntees that more civilians will be killed there. But that is what you want and support. What you are not grasping is that Hamas is choosing to deploy artilery from urban areas. Not Isreal. You support and justify it. For no reason other than a desire to see Dead Jews. Too bad you do not encourage Palestinians to follow the path of the ANC or INC. You seem to agree with thier rule of thier people by force and exploit them in the name of the "struggle" (just like the IRA)

luckydawg -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (12/1/2010 11:05:01 PM)
serioulsy, why don't you think through your support for the WAR CRIME of using Civilians as cover to launch Military opperations?

tweakabelle -> RE: 3 month suspended sentence for breaching Geneva Convention (12/2/2010 12:21:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydawg serioulsy, why don't you think through your support for the WAR CRIME of using Civilians as cover to launch Military opperations? If you say ever something intelligent, or perhaps even merely polite, I may respond. On the evidence to date, that's not going to be a for a long long time. So if I were you I wouldn't hold my breathe. Enjoy your life.

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