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RE: Losing my faith... - 11/23/2010 12:58:24 AM   
hard2handle1


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Joined: 11/17/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

I look at it from a parents' perspective.  I gave life to my children.  I arranged their lives for them for as long as I could.  I gave them rules and beliefs... and a future to look forward to.  I love them dearly and every heartbreak they experience cuts me through like a knife.

But they are adults now.  They are on their own.  They have the freedom to make their own joy or experience their own sorrow.


I always liked the child/parent analogy.

If your child, grown up or not, was about to be hit by a train or contract a fatal disease and you could prevent it would you stand by and watch, just because it was character building?

The anaology just doesn't work. We are not talking about choosing the wrong boyfriend here.

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RE: Losing my faith... - 11/23/2010 1:27:39 AM   
YoungBlondeSlave


Posts: 953
Joined: 2/7/2006
Status: offline 		i can't imagine how it feels to know a child who has died. i'm fortunate that i don't have any of those experiences personally.

i, too, wonder why children die at such a young age so often. i wonder why God would create such beautiful little people who are so full of life, joy, wonder and happiness only to take them away from us so quickly. It makes no sense, i'm afraid it never will.

The pain, confusion and anger will never go away. It might lessen, but it will never go away completely. Which, might be good, because then you will always remember this child, his beautiful eyes and happy smile.

my thoughts and condolences are with you.



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RE: Losing my faith... - 11/23/2010 5:33:23 AM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hard2handle1

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

I look at it from a parents' perspective.  I gave life to my children.  I arranged their lives for them for as long as I could.  I gave them rules and beliefs... and a future to look forward to.  I love them dearly and every heartbreak they experience cuts me through like a knife.

But they are adults now.  They are on their own.  They have the freedom to make their own joy or experience their own sorrow.


I always liked the child/parent analogy.

If your child, grown up or not, was about to be hit by a train or contract a fatal disease and you could prevent it would you stand by and watch, just because it was character building?

The anaology just doesn't work. We are not talking about choosing the wrong boyfriend here.



You appear to miss the subtlety and scope...

Let's just pretend that I had the infinite powers of God over my children.  Yes, I could prevent them being hit by a train and I could keep them from succumbing to some fatal disease.  I imagine they'd appreciate my interference, too.

But where do I draw the line?  Do I remove all harm from their path?  Never allow them to learn to walk because they might fall and be hurt?  Never allow them outside because they might be stung by a bee?  Never allow them to enjoy a piece of candy because it will decay their teeth?  Never allow them to contact with other children because they'd be exposed to germs that cause illness?  Never tell them "no" because it will cause them sorrow?

Do I blind them to that little girl with pigtails because someday she would only cause him heartache?  Do I prevent that bond of friendship with the nextdoor neighbor boy because in the future he will teach him to shoplift?  Do I allow them to choose what they wish to do with their lives as they might pick a career that leads to financial ruin?

Just think about all the choices and freedoms we experience in our lives from the moment we are born until the day we die.  Do you really want someone dictating your every step?  Swooping in and changing your world to keep you from every risk of harm? 

Sure, it would be great if we all had this magic genie we could call upon to give us what we want, when we want it... protect us from all the bad and evil... and make our lives perfect.  But honestly, what kind of people would we end up being?

Parent/child isn't a perfect analogy, I agree.  But I believe it is as close as we (humankind) can get to understanding.

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RE: Losing my faith... - 11/23/2010 6:20:10 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		Indeed. I agree. Free will is all about the maximum degree of freedom - which is a scientific concept.

Some of you may recall that in a long ago thread I solipsistically created the universe. Now suppose that I, interfering on my own volition in that universe - which we might call a doll house - started to move the dolls about, protecting them from harm, or maliciously keeping the desired ice-cream out of their reach. Could such a doll, limited in its degrees of freedom and free will, still be called alive, responsible and interesting for its own sake? No. It would be a boring doll and a boring universe.

Let's say that I limited the degree of freedom of my dolls in this way: when walking the streets in a city they are prohibited from making left turns and walking backwards (i.e. having negative experiences). They are only allowed to move forwards and to make right turns (i.e. having positive experiences). Imagine their difficulty in visiting their left door neighbor.

And imagine my difficulty in enabling them to visit their left door neighbor, for I can and will act if possible not on my but on their volition, as thusly I can supply in their needs and do not interfere with their lives. Suppose that such a doll would like company and I in response supply the urge to visit his left door neighbor. I could have him walk safely all around town making right turns and walking forward until after a lengthy circuit he arrived at his destination, or I could lift his limitations, allow him to make left turns and / or walk backwards and thus reach his left door neighbor by the shortest route of a few paces.

Similarly, one of my dolls might desire to meet the as yet unknown love of his life, who happens to work as a physician in a hospital where he would ordinarily never come. I could make them meet by way of the long, circuitous route - or in response to his desire I could cause him to have an accident, be transported to the hospital and in this way have him meet the love of his life by this shortest route.

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RE: Losing my faith... - 11/23/2010 8:20:23 AM   
JstAnotherSub


Posts: 6174
Status: offline 		All good philosophical reading, but I do not see how this connects to a child of 5, who had not been sick, dying in his sleep and us having no clue (yet) what happened.

Could someone connect the dots for me?  Or is it all related to the losing of faith or the growing of faith in a way I just am not grasping as I prepare to go to the funeral today?

Thanks to all for their thought and sympathies.  I hope I can be strong enouogh to give mine to his family without falling apart.  I just keep reminding me that, no matter how hard this is for me and all of us at the school who loved him, we have not lost our baby and it is really our place to offer comfort in any way we can.....


ugh.

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RE: Losing my faith... - 11/23/2010 9:06:10 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		I think, for me, the question of death and mourning.........wondering why people die 'before they are supposed to'......became a moot point when my beliefs changed.

For ME, death is really a non issue.......just part of a life cycle. No big drama. When a person dies, well, I think that sometimes it's just a crap shoot. Suffering, that's just a part of life. Another crap shoot. I believe absolutely, that without death and suffering there is no life. It's all part of the deal. Doesn't mean it doesn't suck sometimes, it does, but it's part of the package. Age is no guarantee of the lack of either.

If fact, there have been a few child deaths I have known of...... I was glad for the child......given the life they might well have had, had they survived.


< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 11/23/2010 9:09:05 AM >

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Losing my faith... - 11/23/2010 9:44:38 AM   
maybemaybenot


Posts: 2817
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline 		Altho we differ religously, I feel much the same as LaT. I am a Christian, but do not believe that God " chooses " to let a child die or anyone else.

The answer for me lies here from my own religious POV: Altho Jesus was not a child, God " allowed " him to be kiiled and tortured before his death. IF God had any control over it, do I think he would have " allowed " his own son to die prematurely and in such a barbaric way ? No, I do not. I do not believe that death is a personal punishment from God. There is a Native American saying that I adopt into my own personal Christian Faith. I am paraphrasing it but it says.... That each of us is born with a certain number of days in our hand. That is the amount of time the Great Spirit < God, for me> has given us for our purpose here on earth. And sometimes that purpose is not for the individual, but for others. Because your time on earth is eternal in that what ever life you have, will be caried on thru others your life has affected.

I think terrible things happen, that God and religion has nothing at all to do with it. I never did and never will understand those who think that tragedies fall on God's shoulders. I rarely hear anyone say, Sheesh I got a promotion and a significant raise today, God must be really happy with me. For some reason we seem to assign blame to God for " bad " things, yet we often do not give  praise for the hundreds of " good " things that happen to us on a daily basis.

JAS: I am sorry for the loss to you and your community. I think it perfectly natural to question your faith when things like this happen. I think God understands this. I think that if your foundation is strong, you will eventually come to terms with your faith and the loss of one so young.

                 mbmbn

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Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

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RE: Losing my faith... - 11/23/2010 10:40:22 AM   
TreasureKY


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Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

All good philosophical reading, but I do not see how this connects to a child of 5, who had not been sick, dying in his sleep and us having no clue (yet) what happened.

Could someone connect the dots for me?  Or is it all related to the losing of faith or the growing of faith in a way I just am not grasping as I prepare to go to the funeral today?


Death is sad, and the death of the young and innocent is tragic.  But as LaT has said above, "... without death and suffering there is no life. It's all part of the deal. Doesn't mean it doesn't suck sometimes, it does, but it's part of the package."

The message I've tried to convey with regard to your faith is that it has nothing to do with God.  He did not take the child.  The child's death was not God's will.  It was simply a painful part of life.

Unfortunately, knowing that does not make the pain go away.  Again, my sympathies...



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RE: Losing my faith... - 11/23/2010 10:41:55 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		My post is silly I’m sure…maybe not even appropriate for this thread. But like most I have wondered how and why a loving God, if he or they exist, would allow such suffering among his creations. So I was just thinking what could be…Maybe someday we could have a thread of what could be to explain our very existence in our terms not the Sagan’s or Hawkin’s of this world…Soooooo

Just thinking… I’m a product of intelligence that has grown over unimaginable time to understand the universe completely. Through this knowledge I am immortal perhaps to the point where I can not even end my own existence. In fact I am now part of the universe as necessary for its existence as energy and matter. My thoughts mold the very patterns of ether that can be seen and felt.

I am infinite …I have experienced all…I am trapped in a never ending existence of sameness. I am suffering without end…my existence is hell everlasting…I am God

What can I do

Perhaps I can find a way to live again with wonder of the unknown. My heaven is not the omniscience of a God but the love, hate, happiness, sadness and fear of death from my past.

I can do this by instilling part of myself into the soul of a living creature oblivious to my true nature and experience again an existence without infinite knowledge.

This living…loving…suffering…happiness…fear is the true heaven and an escape from the hell of the divine.

Otherwise we may be in heaven now and return to hell when we die...only however to be born into heaven again.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 11/23/2010 10:47:35 AM >

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RE: Losing my faith... - 11/24/2010 4:49:52 AM   
JstAnotherSub


Posts: 6174
Status: offline 		Got up this morning and read the rest of the replies, and I had to smile.  Throughout the service yesterday, there was much talk of him being an angel that we were allowed to have for 5 short years, tales of his great personality, I learned a lot about his family (all of it good), and there were tears flowing freely, even while laughter and applause was happening also.

I didn't sit with the rest of the folks from the school, I took up my traditional back pew seat, helped to hand out fans, walked up to the casket with several who felt they could not go alone, did anything I could to stay busy.

At some point during all the "We do not understand gawds will, but he will never give us more than we can handle....hold on to your faith now harder than ever, etc etc", the thought came to me, it is a crap shoot, none of this is the will of anything, we handle what we are given because we have no choice, and several other thoughts.

So, when I sat down to read here this morning and saw those same thoughts put down by others, I kinda figure I am on the right path to somewhere.  I am ok with having no clue where the path is leading too....I have been reading a lot of Rumi in the past few days, and even though  I had read these before, they really  hit me in the heart and soul...


"I am part of the load
Not rightly balanced
I drop off in the grass,
like the old Cave-sleepers, to browse
wherever I fall.
For hundreds of thousands of years I have been dust-grains
floating and flying in the will of the air,
often forgetting ever being
in that state, but in sleep
I migrate back. I spring loose
from the four-branched, time -and-space cross,
this waiting room.
I walk into a huge pasture
I nurse the milk of millennia
Everyone does this in different ways.
Knowing that conscious decisions
and personal memory
are much too small a place to live,
every human being streams at night
into the loving nowhere, or during the day,
in some absorbing work."

and....



"I died from minerality and became vegetable;
And From vegetativeness I died and became animal.
I died from animality and became man.
Then why fear disappearance through death?
Next time I shall die
Bringing forth wings and feathers like angels;
After that, soaring higher than angels -
What you cannot imagine,
I shall be that."
 
Life IS good....


< Message edited by JstAnotherSub -- 11/24/2010 4:50:59 AM >

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RE: Losing my faith... - 11/24/2010 6:24:23 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

All good philosophical reading, but I do not see how this connects to a child of 5, who had not been sick, dying in his sleep and us having no clue (yet) what happened.

Could someone connect the dots for me?  Or is it all related to the losing of faith or the growing of faith in a way I just am not grasping as I prepare to go to the funeral today?



We don't know. I don't think we can know.

It is simply my point of view that I do not have the wider scope to see how one person's - adult or child - death will affect others. Sometimes it is, as others have pointed out, the sorrow to allow us to know joy. Sometimes that seemingly pointless death is a cry to action from others. One parent, John Walsh, lost his child to killer and went on to to help a national show dedicated to finding wanted men and women and bring them to justice on "America's Most Wanted". Others have seen their loved ones die or suffer and gone into medicine to try and figure out why, to seek out the cures or create the therapies that will help them and countless others.

None of that lessens the loss of course. None of it is very comforting to those who are grieving. I simply say it to share my take on grief, loss and faith. I don't know if any specific loss will lead to something that saves others. I don't know and I can't know because sometimes these efforts take years, decades, more than... Drawing on the past and those who have come before them.

That is where, for me, the faith comes in. If you regain yours, don't or find that it grows into something new and different... all my best for you. I hope that you find peace and contentment as you move through this.


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Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

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RE: Losing my faith... - 11/24/2010 1:10:09 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

I am losing it....I have no idea if it is temporary or forever, but I am finding it impossible to believe there is some super dude in the sky who controls things.  Karma aint looking too good either, I am just pissed at the gawds.


if you are stuck in the teachings used to introduce children to what boils down to advanced metaphysics with the idea that God is a guy in the sky either you completely missed the core understanding or your teachers were really out of it.

Everyone goes through that at some time or another.  Nope no violins here no sympathy just the road to understanding.

I dont remember where it stated but man was created in God's image.  If you lose sight of and give up on God you lost sight and given up on yourself.

Think of what you are going through is like an infinitely  thin piece of paper that is perfectly flat with random rotation.  you can see the front and the back but not any side.

Its a cycle, most people traverse it without ever realizing what they are doing....  Right now the side is facing you.  you can see nothing in this part of the cycle.  Again I do not know where its is described but its in there.   Its time to open a new door of understanding.  Slamming the door shut only thwarts your spiritual growth.

Its time to look a bit deeper. Fathom the next endowment.  Its a lull and a pause, the darkness before the light.   Its life.  Enjoy and experience it to the fullest.

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 11/24/2010 1:13:39 PM >

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"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

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Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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RE: Losing my faith... - 11/26/2010 11:32:16 AM   
anthrosub


Posts: 843
Joined: 6/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

I am losing it....I have no idea if it is temporary or forever, but I am finding it impossible to believe there is some super dude in the sky who controls things.  Karma aint looking too good either, I am just pissed at the gawds.

I guess, if there is one, he can take me being pissed at him, and if there isn't, nothing lost.

The death of a kindergarten student at the school I work at has catapulted this on to me like a boulder.  I have always been able to keep the faith in some way or another.  It was sucked out of me when I walked in to the office and had someone tell me, through her tears, that one of our babies was gone.  Still don't know why he died.......

He had the prettiest (yes they were pretty, but in a macho way) eyes I have ever seen.  His smile made me grin every morning, without fail.  I can think of no damn reason in the world or heavens that this childs life is now gone. 

And it pisses me the hell off!

I know anyone can post anywhere, so I won't even try to dictate, but I will ask that, if possible, this become a discussion on losing faith, whether you refound it or changed your mind completely about what is and what isn't. 

I have no idea how I will come out the other side of this, but I have just helped too many people bury their babies in the past few years, and I am curious how others have come through similar things.


It is a tough pill to swallow. And the more years you put into vesting yourself in some belief, the harder it is to come to your senses. I would dare say most people who have extremely strong convictions are actually beyond the point of no return. I was fortunate in that I was born into a life where following my intuition, coupled with an unusually strong curiosity about the "really big questions" steered me clear of all the nonsense. I saw religions for what they were between the ages of 8 and 10 years old. I didn't fully understand it all at the time but had the comfort of gut level confidence to see me through.

It's difficult when what jars you out of your mesmerized mind is a tragedy but keep moving forward into the unknown and even something horrible will eventually fall into place. But also don't broadcast what you are doing. People who are still living a blind life will immediately see you as a threat to their perception and either try to convert you or if that fails, attempt to trash you in some way or another...and if that fails shun or put you in exile in whatever way they can.

Learn to become your own best friend. Read books that talk about this experience without trying to sell you something to replace it with. Socrates' "The Republic", Richard Bach's "Johnathan Livingston Seagull", or anything by Krishnamurti will help with food for thought. Krishnamurti talks about all aspects of life but always ends with saying not to take his word for it and find out for yourself (something very, very few people ever actually do). You are in good company.

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RE: Losing my faith... - 11/26/2010 1:34:53 PM   
JstAnotherSub


Posts: 6174
Status: offline 		I can never keep anything so important to my self.  The people in my life that I share it with know me well though, and they have been supportive (and I am sure I am on more than one prayer list-lol).

I have calmed down a good bit since I made this thread, and I realize nothing changes overnight.  One friend of mine asked me, if I gave up faith, would I give up living.  I thought about it and told her no, in fact, somehow I think this thing is going to lead to me living more than I ever have before.

Sighs, life is fun aint it? lol

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RE: Losing my faith... - 11/26/2010 1:56:26 PM   
anthrosub


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Joined: 6/2/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

I can never keep anything so important to my self.  The people in my life that I share it with know me well though, and they have been supportive (and I am sure I am on more than one prayer list-lol).

I have calmed down a good bit since I made this thread, and I realize nothing changes overnight.  One friend of mine asked me, if I gave up faith, would I give up living.  I thought about it and told her no, in fact, somehow I think this thing is going to lead to me living more than I ever have before.

Sighs, life is fun aint it? lol


Life hurts and is not fair. Fair is something we try to put on life but it really never sticks. Many people who are rich enough hide from the reality of life as long as they can but even that is ultimately futile. If you hurt, you are alive. Accept it and learn from it.

I recently saw an article about a little 5 year old boy who was gunned down in his back yard along with a couple of his adult family by gang members in LA. He was posing for pictures in his Spiderman costume for Halloween. The article included the photo of him which really made it hurt. The house they lived in was on a disputed border of two rival gangs and the people who shot them thought they were members of the opposition. Insane.

The idiots who did this were caught very quickly.

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

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