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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/23/2010 2:51:30 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

El Al only has a relative handful of departures each day (they ony operate 35 aircraft after all). United Airlines operates 360 aircraft, Delta has a fleet of 733, American has a fleet of 625. Now add in all the small and regional US carriers.



What matters is cost per passenger. The US also has probably 100 times the security personnel already in place, along with larger security agencies. I'm certainly not talking about adding personnel, I'm talking about making better use of what we have, of which Ben Gurion Airport, El Al, and the relevant  security agencies provide us with good example. Your comparison in terms of absolute size is meaningless and irrelevant.



quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Now imagine -each passenger- (??, Ed.)  going through a 3 hour screening involving questioning and hand bag searches as well as any level of physical screening the security officers feel is warranted. That would bring actual chaos and standstill to US airports.



This is what I called BS on in the earlier post and it's what I call BS on now and will do so every time you attempt to adduce something you've clearly pulled out of your hat as evidence for a groundless and meaningless argument.

quote:

... as well as any level of physical screening the security officers feel is warranted.


For -each- passenger? really? And 3 hours per passenger, each and every one? My oh my ... 



Either provide a creditable citation for that claim or dispense with it. 

http://www.israelinsider.com/channels/security/articles/sec_0108.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2001/10/01/elal-usat.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2097352.stm

or simply contact El Al and ask for info on flying to Tel Aviv on one of their planes.

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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/23/2010 2:58:53 PM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The new body scanners is ineffective for detecting powdered explosives like PETN (what the shoebomber and underwear bomber used) and for that matter, the enhanced pat downs would be hard pressed to determine if there were explosives in someone's underwear unless your crotch was actively groped (which is a poor place to put it anyway, if I am going to blow myself up, I am NOT planting the bomb in my crotch.)

Now personally, I think that the screening process should begin BEFORE you get to the security checkpoint.

A security expert said on cnn it would be real easy for a suicide bomber to get in line, wait till they get to the middle of the line and then detonate the bomb. Granted they dont bring down a plane, but they could kill hundreds and bring air travel to a stop.



Good post.  I agree that security before the airport - would be something to consider.

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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/23/2010 3:21:09 PM   
barelynangel


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Status: offline 		The issue is the TSA is a governmental entity. The airline from which you buy your tickets and the airline which gets your money are not part of the TSA. So on many levels it is the concept of peoples rights that are in fact bring brought into same. I don't have an issue with the scanners as I do with the searches. We all technically all have a right against unreasonable searches. To me these pat downs majority border on violation of rights to an extent. Govt is allowed to except when the intrusion on people's privacy is minimal. That is what needs to be defined. What is a minimal expectation of privacy. What is unusual conduct - the scanners beep twice? And do the ofcrs reasonably believe the person is "carrying". Also what about this fining people who choose to leave the airport instead of going through the scanners or being searched. We don't have a right to decline both and simple not go through to the plane? While I wouldn't have issues with the security in place. I can see how people can see it as a violation of their rights. The courts are going to have to do some major defining of certain things to clarify the rights and a reasonable expectation of privacy. I understand safety but this all has a long way to go in dealing with these new changes and the invasiveness many people feel doesn't give them a reasonable expectAtion of privacy to enjoy privately owned company's services.

Angel

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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/23/2010 3:33:00 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

That would be great. Where is this company that can handle security for the mind boggling number of domestic and international flights for the U.S.?




Already addressed with at least two references each in this and the other thread on the subject.

The last few incidents involving flights to or from the US were shown to be entirely preventable, had there been even a modicum of competence prevailing at the relevant agencies. In every instance the final commentary from media selected 'experts' and pundits mentioned little or nothing about this shortfall, but rather that more across-the-board crude and intrusive methods were needed.

Those we rely on for our safety are not up to the task of doing their job, nor do they show the least inclination to improve matters there, yet we are expected to trust them when they tell us that fondling old people and children will make us all safe now?

Are you not uncomfortable with both the danger that will still exist going forward  and the fact that these laughable attempts to cover up for such a sad effort elsewhere will do nothing to change any of it?


We don't necessarily need a new company. Just hire El Al's security experts and trainers and the a few of the personnel at whatever Israeli agency is that keeps track of potential air travel threats as consultants for two years or so, retaining  maybe a handful beyond that on a rotating basis. A few German security experts would be a help also. As I pointed out up thread, size is already in place and not a consideration on its own. And to repeat; there is nothing "mind boggling" about it in terms of scale, -they've already hired many thousands more just for purpose of extra hands-on screening-.  If the whole security scheme were done with half a brain involved, it's very likely that it would be noticeably less mind boggling.


Not a major incident associated with El Al flights or at Ben Gurion Airport for over forty years despite much greater effort on the part of the terrorists than we ever have or probably ever will experience in this country. Do you think its possible they would have some knowledge and experience we might make use of?

Or do we think it's better to approach this as we did with health care 'reform' and just pull whatever out of our arse, completely oblivious to whatever programs that have existed (and worked) for decades elsewhere? So this is where we've come to then, reinventing the wheel, made out of the finest concrete available, and we know our country makes better concrete than anyone else so we feel safe in saying we've invented the best wheel.

The middle east invasions might be the worst this country has done in recent years, but this latest fumbling and tripping-over-self fiasco is far and away the most embarrassing display. Lest there might have been some previous polite allowance by others that the US was not completely dumbed-down just yet, this latest sad comedy leaves them no choice but to concede the unavoidable conclusion.




< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/23/2010 3:41:26 PM >

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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/23/2010 3:47:54 PM   
jlf1961


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Status: offline 		Security at Ben Gurion airport, according to the former director of Security at the airport, begins at the car.

There are a series (note the plural) of security checks before you actually get to the final checkpoint.

The airport has been the target of many terrorist attempts but NO attempt to hijack a flight has ever succeeded.

Other countries use the multi layered approach to airport security based on the Ben Gurion model. And they do not have to use such invasive pat downs or body scanners, so they must be doing something right.

In the United States there is ONE and only ONE security checkpoint. Strangely enough, the multi layered approach is used in other areas where tight security is needed, why not at the damn airport?

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Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/23/2010 3:56:09 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:


http://www.israelinsider.com/channels/security/articles/sec_0108.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2001/10/01/elal-usat.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2097352.stm

or simply contact El Al and ask for info on flying to Tel Aviv on one of their planes.




All that does is confirm what I said earlier. No passengers are screened beyond the level of questioning, unless the responses indicate that further measures are needed. They do not conduct random and numerous personal invasions.

As for the three hours, do you know anyone who has taken less than three hours to get from house to plane seat in the last few years? Your assertion was that every single passenger went through three hours of interrogation and personal screening, which your references rebuked.

All of that is a red herring anyway.

Bottom line: the TSA and the US intelligence agencies charged with counter-terrorism regarding flights are incompetent and inept to the core, and no amount of spraying people with whatever low level radiation or fumbling hands-in-pants will change that.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/23/2010 4:06:04 PM >

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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/23/2010 4:12:05 PM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

The issue is the TSA is a governmental entity. The airline from which you buy your tickets and the airline which gets your money are not part of the TSA. So on many levels it is the concept of peoples rights that are in fact bring brought into same. I don't have an issue with the scanners as I do with the searches. We all technically all have a right against unreasonable searches. To me these pat downs majority border on violation of rights to an extent. Govt is allowed to except when the intrusion on people's privacy is minimal. That is what needs to be defined. What is a minimal expectation of privacy. What is unusual conduct - the scanners beep twice? And do the ofcrs reasonably believe the person is "carrying". Also what about this fining people who choose to leave the airport instead of going through the scanners or being searched. We don't have a right to decline both and simple not go through to the plane? While I wouldn't have issues with the security in place. I can see how people can see it as a violation of their rights. The courts are going to have to do some major defining of certain things to clarify the rights and a reasonable expectation of privacy. I understand safety but this all has a long way to go in dealing with these new changes and the invasiveness many people feel doesn't give them a reasonable expectAtion of privacy to enjoy privately owned company's services.

Angel


I would take the grope rather then the scanner.   I do not trust the scanner (per radiation)... and some who do go thru the scanner must then get the grope anyway... not all but a few.



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Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/23/2010 4:19:13 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		Then what are you complaining about, pa? Take the pat down and be on your way.

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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/23/2010 4:24:11 PM   
calamitysandra


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Status: offline 		If you are so worried about radiation, you should avoid flying altogether. During the flight you will be exposed to higher doses of radiation anyway.

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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/23/2010 4:27:33 PM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		When I get a dental x-ray, or a chest x-ray-  I do so as a direct result of my medical treatment.  So there is a pay off.    A science based pay off.

It is also a total choice.... not a forced choice.

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Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/23/2010 4:35:50 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
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Status: offline 		BIG SIS: Next step for body scanners could be trains, boats, metro...

Full-body scanners popping up at courthouses...

Ron Paul: Crotch Groped by TSA, Calls for Boycott of Airline...

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Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/23/2010 4:46:50 PM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		Robert Dean Cites 4th Amendment Violation, Sues TSA Over Full-Body Scans
huff.




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Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/23/2010 4:46:59 PM   
cbaby


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Why would that be the distillation of the post?   It would seem to me the situation is more at a roadside stop of all cars.

One, you are going to the fucking airport, you know they are going to feel you up.
Two, if you don't let them feel you up, they are going to feel you up anyway.


ask for hot security personal to feel you up (say allergic to ugly or something) and ask if you can return the favor or take the 3rd option.....stay home


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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/23/2010 4:50:35 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		PA, you can see it as when you go through the scanners, you do as a direct result of your expectation of your safety on the plane. So the radiation risk is pretty much the same concept your reasonable expectation of health care instead this simply speaks to your reasonable expectation of your safety.   Where do you think the reason you get x-rays etc came from?  It didn't show up out of the blue one day, it came from the necessity and it raised the expectation of health care.  You can think of the scanners as what x-rays, mri etc started as.  So a little radiation from these is the same risk you take when you get an xray and the expectation is pretty much within the same context -- one of medical and one is your safety. 

Its a learning curve, in 5 years their probably will be a lot less pat downs because people will easily be using the scanners.  But the pat down thing i don't like.  But all in all, you have to make your own choices, will not flying be more convenient for you then do it.  If you want to deal with the other modes of transport and the time it takes then do so.  Or fight the government.  All in all, they are here now, and you need to pick one -- the scanner or the search -- if you choose to fly.

angel

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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/23/2010 4:54:27 PM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Robert Dean Cites 4th Amendment Violation, Sues TSA Over Full-Body Scans
huff.





If these new terrible screening rules are detrimental to his "emotional, psychological and mental well-being," he really should be in a big bloody plastic bubble


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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/23/2010 4:55:36 PM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Robert Dean Cites 4th Amendment Violation, Sues TSA Over Full-Body Scans
huff.





If these new terrible screening rules are detrimental to his "emotional, psychological and mental well-being," he really should be in a big bloody plastic bubble



It is called un-alienable rights.   

Live it.

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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/23/2010 4:57:24 PM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		Declaration of Independence - Transcript

< Message edited by pahunkboy -- 11/23/2010 4:58:33 PM >

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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/23/2010 5:03:45 PM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		live it baby, just dont fly,whine



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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/23/2010 5:07:16 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

it seems the latest news is 3 % of people are actually having to go thru airports scanner/patdowns



Lucy, where did you see this at?

The scanners are being employed in more and more airports, and we still have the traditional scanners in every airport.

And even when you do go through you are subject to a pat down.

I'm tired of being treated like a criminal simply because I want to fly on an airplane.

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Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/23/2010 5:07:43 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		You know, in our society, i can see how the scannings and body searches can emotionally, mentally and psychologically effect people.  I mean for most of us, we grew up in a society of stranger danger, of some things are "private" etc.  And suddenly, we are thrust into having naked images of ourselves viewed by strangers and even more so strangers touching us.  We down porn and child porn and most of our society is pretty prudish, especially the baby boomers.  What about rape victims or assault victims?  This could be very traumatic for them. 

I don't have the answers, but i can seriously see how this could in fact scar some people.  Even if they think they will be okay, the situation in and of itself can cause issues and memory concepts and could very well seem like they are once again being violated.  I do believe this needs to go to the courts and all aspects from SOCIETY not the government needs to be evaluated.  Things need to be better defined and understood. 

I don't see an issue with people filing lawsuits, because it means the details will need to be looked at and evaluated.  This is all new and the TSA will need to deal with how this does effect all sorts of people because the airlines will not be able to survive people opting out of flying due to to me real concerns.  And yes, for many, it can effect them emotionally, psychologically etc and it may not be worth it for them to fly. 

This isn't just about people choosing another form of transportation, while they have that option, the airlines annot afford it.

angel

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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
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