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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/24/2010 5:20:16 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Angel,

YES.   We should stop and gain our footing.  We are rushing into the abyss of a very bleak world- one that I am not sure that I want to live in.

Even now machines decide things for us.  Call some customer service and work the phone to get a real person, get a cam ticket.     The machine is in charge.

So yes-  slow down this rush to the abyss.

(in reply to barelynangel)
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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/24/2010 5:22:38 AM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

SO PA, let me ask you this -- do you think that the world should become stagnant and simply stop progressing?  Technology has the world moving extremely fast.  We need to move forward with it.  From what you are saying is, we shouldn't, we should stay right where we are and be happy about it.


The technology is supposed to make you free(er), not more of a slave to the government.

Freedom of travel is one of those subjects where there needs to be a balance; you can make things 100% "safe" by insisting everyone travels stark naked, with cavity searches for all beforehand. This is clearly "too much", because the security regime is exponentially more heavy-handed than it needs to be.

However, the system that’s currently in place is only very slightly less oppressive. It’s upsetting many people, it isn’t actually that effective when compared to better, less intrusive methods, and you can be pretty sure that if the former head of security for El-Al says you're pissing in the wind then you're pissing in the wind.

I’d also be very concerned about the mentality of those you're employing to do these tasks; the police have the in-depth training, mindset and experience to attempt to balance their powers against those enshrined within the law (for both sides, and even the police get it wrong sometimes), but it’s pretty clear that, at the moment, you've got a bunch of power-crazed security people who are both unused to the level of authority they're being expected to wield and also somewhat out of control. That's bad, for them as well as the populace at large.

Technologies are a tool; focussing on the tool rather than the user, and most importantly of all the desired outcome, will simply ensure a populace that's either angry and oppressed (and justifiably so), or quietly acquiescent like sheep. Neither is a good state of affairs.


< Message edited by RapierFugue -- 11/24/2010 5:23:53 AM >

(in reply to barelynangel)
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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/24/2010 5:24:28 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		PA, not everyone feels off footing with this world.  You seem to but the kids up and coming feel right at home in our world.  It will always be frustrating for people who didn't grow up in this world, but should we really force everyone else to slow down and hinder their progression?

I don't agree.  I am not sure how to connect the old with the new, but i do know hindering progression because of fear is not the answer.

angel

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to pahunkboy)
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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/24/2010 5:27:47 AM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

It will always be frustrating for people who didn't grow up in this world, but should we really force everyone else to slow down and hinder their progression?


The current security system is not "progression" it's oppression by the back door.

The end of freedoms via the death of a thousand cuts.

(in reply to barelynangel)
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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/24/2010 5:27:52 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Angel, that is a weak argument.

I want quality (life)  not quantity.


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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/24/2010 5:29:38 AM   
Edwynn


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Joined: 10/26/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

SO PA, let me ask you this -- do you think that the world should become stagnant and simply stop progressing? 

angel



It's just an obsessive/compulsive thing.

For some it's repetitive hand washing or re-shelving of books.

For some it's repetitive hyper-posting with multiple links to yet another series of wacko sites that make the most hyperbolic contortions out of otherwise potentially serious subjects.

Meaningful or useful contribution is not the object here.




< Message edited by Edwynn -- 11/24/2010 5:32:08 AM >

(in reply to barelynangel)
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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/24/2010 5:29:41 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue


quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

It will always be frustrating for people who didn't grow up in this world, but should we really force everyone else to slow down and hinder their progression?


The current security system is not "progression" it's oppression by the back door.

The end of freedoms via the death of a thousand cuts.


I went to a different DR a few weeks back for a 2nd opinion on a matter.   She had 2 freaken surveillance cameras in the waiting room- and security doors. 

I wont go back.

(in reply to RapierFugue)
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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/24/2010 5:31:58 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn


It's just an obsessive/compulsive thing.

For some it's repetitive hand washing or re-shelving of books.

For some it's repetitive hyper-posting with multiple links to yet another series of wacko sites that make the most hyperbolic contortions out of otherwise potentially serious subjects.

Meaningful or useful contribution is not the object here.



Enter the 1st amendment. 

Hip hip Hurray!!

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 188
RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/24/2010 5:35:12 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Want something else to boggle your mind?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSQTz1bccL4

I rarely view youtube clips... but this was sent to me from my son and once he told me what it was, i had to watch. I would be more worried about a pedophile in this situation that in a scanning room.


The searcher could be anything, if searches are to be carried out, the human intervention has to be taken out, but for a human to search another, that is saying the security that already exists is not good enough, unless it is a random search, in which case why choose a particular person, what makes a person random, what creates that thought to picka particular individual, for it has got to be an instinctual move, in which case it exhibits a prejudice or attraction to a person.

But a question about those walk through things that are meant to detect metals on the person, do they get false signals, I mean how accurate are they ? For something to be trusted it has to be consistant in its operation, so say kid walks through scanner and it goes off, so along comes the ss and searches you finding nothing, yet when one goes through the scanner again, it does not register, so one is on their way. If nothing was found in the grope and the scanner did not pick up anything on the second walk through that indicates the things are not reliable, in which case they shouldnt be used.

I kee thinking the point will come where if one wants to fly, then one will have to go through security and fly in a pdisposable paper coverall ansd slippers at some point,after being given an enema and  meds to make one sick so the ss can be more or less certain nobody is going to bring a plane down.

But I wonder how much all of this is truly about security.


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/24/2010 5:35:31 AM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
I went to a different DR a few weeks back for a 2nd opinion on a matter.   She had 2 freaken surveillance cameras in the waiting room- and security doors. 

I wont go back.


See now that's something that, personally, I don't have any issue with. Doctors surgeries are prone to break-ins and other security issues (junkies pressurising for methadone, etc). So to me it makes logical sense, and isn't too intrusive.

But the airport security thing is a step too far. Actually several steps too far.

(in reply to pahunkboy)
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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/24/2010 5:36:57 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Umm RapierFugue, the MACHINES don't make us slave to the government, we do that all on our own.  The machines aren't making the decisions the people are.  So its the PEOPLE who are making us "slaves" to the government so to speak.

You seem to think that we have never been at the BEGINNING of something before.  Even though its been 9 years, this concept of being attacked on our own homeland is fairly new to most people.  The way it happened is brand new also.  I mean if you honestly think that there aren't going to be growing pains then you aren't based in reality.

I didn't say people should simply follow along, i said they should do what they feel they NEED too, which for some means they just accept it because it doesn't bother them, for others they simply will choose another mode of transportation, for other still they will use their power as citizens to complain, file lawsuits etc.  Of all these the latter is what will create the course on which this flies.

Do i think the TSA is overwelming everything, yes.  BUT i also know that if something else happens, they will be the ones blamed, they will be the ones who people accuse of NOT doing enough.   On many levels they are caught between a rock and a hard place because of the responsibility they have and they are brand new to it.

Yes, right now its irritating, its unsettling etc, but in the end, they have to find their nitch.  I don't think they are power-crazed, i think they are trying to figure out how to keep the unthinkable from happening again.  They are trying to stay one step ahead of people who want to harm the U.S.  I give them the benefit of the doubt that they are trying to figure it all out.  And i believe its going to take some time.  Like i said, in 5 years these scanners won't be a big deal, and i bet the physical searches will be the same type of search you got 2 years ago if you set off the beeper. 

The world isn't going to stop progressing, the technology will keep moving forward. And for people who are whinging about the machines they should WANT them to progress because people will take into account the complaints and such and new machines will come about that hopefully alleviate people's concerns and make them feel more comfortable.

I don't have the answers, if i did i would be working in this field.  But in the end, the scanners are here to stay.  Hopefully they will be refined where the concerns some people have will be alleviated.  But in the end, growing pains happen all the time, and people will have to be pulled along kicking and screaming. 

angel 

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 191
RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/24/2010 5:39:18 AM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Umm RapierFugue, the MACHINES don't make us slave to the government, we do that all on our own.  The machines aren't making the decisions the people are.  So its the PEOPLE who are making us "slaves" to the government so to speak.


Quite right. But the technology is not fit for purpose, therefore people should be stepping in to say "this is neither effective, nor warranted".

But they aren't. Ask yourself why that might be.

(in reply to barelynangel)
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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/24/2010 5:40:40 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline
quote:

I want quality (life)  not quantity.


What quality of life do you have PA, when you are scared of everything it seems.  You are scared because you fear the quantity of your life will be cut short.  I guess it all depends on quality definition because from your posts, your fears to me hinders you more than any airport security every will.  I don't see how scanners in the airport hinders your quality of life.  I mean its all of 10 seconds in the machine. 

angel

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 193
RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/24/2010 5:43:16 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Who watches the watchers?

(in reply to RapierFugue)
Profile   Post #: 194
RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/24/2010 5:45:01 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		your fears to me hinders you more than any airport security every will/snip

Good point.   I agree.

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 195
RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/24/2010 5:47:58 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Umm RapierFugue, how do you know its "this is neither effective, nor warranted"   I mean seriously, do you work behind the scenes of homeland security?  Do you work in some industry that allows you full access to what is being stopped in this world before it happens.

I think a lot of the problem is, MOST PEOPLE don't want to know.  So i personally believe that MOST people don't have the information to decide if its effective or warranted.  For every article read saying it is effective you find one that says its not.  There are "experts" all over. 

All in all, i think it will all get figured out eventually.  I think once definitions are better defined things will be more smooth.  The TSA has also indicated that their people need more sensitivity training when dealing with people.  The cops didn't always have all these rules and training they have now.  It was growing pains for them just as it is for the TSA. 

angel

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 196
RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/24/2010 5:55:22 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
TSA Administrative Directive: Opt-Outters To Be Considered “Domestic Extremists” If the information recently acquired by Doug Hagmann of Northeast Intelligence Network is accurate, then something really big is happening in America right now – and it’s most certainly not a step towards individual liberty. 3 Comments


Poll: Majority oppose body scans, nearly half seek alternative to flying A new poll by Zogby /snip

WTF!   "domestic extremists"?  Are you kidding me!!!!

< Message edited by pahunkboy -- 11/24/2010 5:56:55 AM >

(in reply to barelynangel)
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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/24/2010 5:55:26 AM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		Barely... I think what people most object to is the standard being changed from "innocent until proven guilty" to "guilty until proven innocent".  I don't consider that to be progress.

(in reply to barelynangel)
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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/24/2010 5:55:37 AM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Umm RapierFugue, how do you know its "this is neither effective, nor warranted"   I mean seriously, do you work behind the scenes of homeland security?  Do you work in some industry that allows you full access to what is being stopped in this world before it happens.


You only need to read up on this subject to see that the current, semi- and fully invasive techniques, aren't rated as especially useful by many, many security people. And yes of course it's unwarranted - as I said before, compare the odds of actual terrorist events per journey against the highly distasteful techniques and attitudes being utilised.

I would agree with one writer though, in that I think this system's lifespan is approaching the end ... there's a justifiable groundswell of unease about all this that can only grow. People will hopefully start to question what sort of security regime they wish to live under, and who the regime benefits most. And that can only be a good thing.

PS: Why, when the system tells you who someone is replying to, do you feel the need to address your comments to individuals (in a public forum too), sometimes in bold? I'm not having a pop, I'm just curious.

(in reply to barelynangel)
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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/24/2010 5:56:51 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Yes, it is true that America is new to the fact that enemies can bring terror to their shores, and that might have a large bearing on the sillyness we are comming to experience, for what America does, the UK usually follows almost blindly as it it truly were a lap dog to the US. The US paranoia is affecting the UK and other countries around the world as I have heard it said America will not let any airlines into the US if they do not adequately search the passengers beforehand. So what America says, the world has to follow, but perhaps people are getting fed up of dancing to America's tune as indicated by UK based Aviation criticising the useless happenings at security check outs in UK airports.

Perhaps Americans need to be asking, why is it they are the focus of terrorist action and there compel their leaders to stop pissing people off as the security measures in place are eroding the freedom you once had and the terrorist will win always for an unhappy or pissed off populace unfree in their movement is just a good a reward for their threat.

Do you think the time will come where America will be seen as the world aggressor, not those that take action upon what they feel is injustice ?


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 200
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