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how to turn a dominant man into a Dominant man - 11/26/2010 9:04:07 AM   
chasingbliss


Posts: 13
Joined: 11/26/2010
Status: offline 		Greetings,

I have an issue I am struggling with and hope to find some helpful answers here. My man is a dominant man but not a Dom. In fact, before me, there has never been a woman that's wanted it rough the way i do in the bedroom. I'm a bedroom submissive,i love being made helpless and enjoy s&m. He has used a riding crop on me when i have asked but i want this to be more. The relationships going on a half year now and my needs are only growing. I want him to put me in distress and enjoy my distress. I desire to be bound, blindfolded, have a ball gag in my mouth and be flogged. I genuinely believe this would not only enhance our relationship but ensure it continues. He is everything wonderful so I have let this need be put on a shelf for a time now.

My question to you all is this: how do I approach him and let him know my needs, the importance of this to me without sounding whiney, without making him feel like he isn't good enough or lacking? He knows I have these needs, we discussed them in the beginning of the relationship but at that time he didn't want to jump right into it, said he had ideas but time has passed and I feel like he may be afraid to hurt me, afraid he will lose me if he does these things because I am looking distressed when bound and beaten. He is a good man. I feel it's critical to approach this the correct way.

Is there a way to encourage this and inititate a scene, to see if it brings some enjoyment not only to me but also to him? I want this so bad, how would you suggest i go about it in a proper fashion?
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RE: how to turn a dominant man into a Dominant man - 11/26/2010 9:33:01 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline 		Hi chasingbliss, this is a difficult one because there are lots of dominant personalities out there that have no interest on sexually subduing a female.
When you initially talked about these things, did he get sexually excited by your thoughts ? If not, then perhaps he believed they were passing whims which he had no actual real interest in himself. The thing is, these thoughts need to excite him and if they don't excite him, then he would be doing this for your benefit alone and I'm pretty certain thats not what you want.

If I were you, I would wait for a good titillating moment and then approach him lightheartedly about your joint adventure and what you both want out of it.
Buy an S/m video or an erotic S/m book and show him the bits that really turn you on.
Ask him outright if he is worried about hurting you because only then can you reassure him.
Ask him about his fantasies and tell him about yours.

Whatever you do, you need to entice him more into your world and let him hear and understand you. There is nothing worse than not understanding one another. Guessing games are a big part in broken relationships.

_____________________________

S&M (Steve and Maria) persona libre de convencionalismos


Fan of edgeplay.co.uk

(in reply to chasingbliss)
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RE: how to turn a dominant man into a Dominant man - 11/26/2010 9:48:13 AM   
ricken


Posts: 261
Joined: 1/11/2010
Status: offline 		Hi, it takes time to build any relationship, especially one like this that where someone can really be hurt and things can go wrong.
Maybe talk out some roleplay ideas, like being forced or?
But the most important one...talking things out, and re-assuring him the pain is good.
And do you use safewords so he knows things going are too far? If you use a safeword, then he knows your not in distress too far, and may feel more confortable, eventually learning more and more.
Again talk and listen, but remember you cant force someone to be Dom....

(in reply to chasingbliss)
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RE: how to turn a dominant man into a Dominant man - 11/26/2010 11:42:19 AM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline 		Sorry, but if it was within him it'd be showing by now. You can teach someone techniqe, such as tying different knots etc, but you can't teach them the *need* to restrain (control) someone - they have to have it already.... It's as futile as teaching a gay person to be straight.

While it's commendable that you've told him of your needs and desires, I suspect he's feeling the strain of not being able to fulfill them off his own bat. That's intimidating to a man wanting to look after his woman = pressure.

We have newbie doms come here all the time wanting to know how to dominate etc and while they get plenty of advice and assorted links etc, the truth is that the greatest teaching/learning aid of all is to have access to a willing (and thus complementing) submissive. And since your "dom" clearly has that, it's time to do the math. Or learn to be happy with what you already have with him as pushing it will be relationship cancer....

Welcome to CM :) Hmmmm, joined this very day just to pick our brains, eh? I do hope you'll at least have the good grace to manage and give feedback to the topic you've begun....

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to ricken)
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RE: how to turn a dominant man into a Dominant man - 11/26/2010 11:56:32 AM   
chasingbliss


Posts: 13
Joined: 11/26/2010
Status: offline 		Thanks for the advice. I suppose its something I need to wait for the right moment to discuss, though it needs to be sooner than later. Last we spoke he said a woman tied up would not appeal to him...like it would bore him. Yet he's not tried any of this. Personally, I'm not sure this relationship is the right one without bdsm. What is so difficult is the fact so much else between us is good. I'm depressed at the thought of his not enjoying s&m being what ends us:(

(in reply to ricken)
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RE: how to turn a dominant man into a Dominant man - 11/26/2010 11:59:58 AM   
Twoshoes


Posts: 1218
Joined: 7/27/2010
Status: offline 		Not everyone who's 'dominant' towards people around them or 'dominant' when it comes to personal relationships is going to be messed up in the way you're asking for; it takes a somewhat sadistic person to genuinely enjoy someone else's emotional 'distress'.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chasingbliss
I want him to put me in distress and enjoy my distress.

That's a pretty clear way to explain it, though.

Personally, I differentiate between pretending to be cruel and actually being cruel. (I'm not particularly proud of it.) But I'm pretty sure most people can at least pretend or act.

quote:


He is a good man. I feel it's critical to approach this the correct way.


The most important thing to communicate is whatever you're asking for wouldn't actually hurt or damage you in any way. Being a "good man", he'll probably be most concerned about hurting you. Whatever you do, you also have to demonstrate you're not damaged by it, afterwards.

But all in all, you may be able to convince him to lead and pretend to be cruel in a sexual interaction, but you may not be able to transform him into a controlling and cruel sadist, which is probably a good thing. And it may not register as actual distress if he's only acting. Honestly, I don't see a deficiency there at all; I actually think it's great for someone to not have a clue how to be controlling or sadistic.

< Message edited by Twoshoes -- 11/26/2010 12:25:48 PM >

(in reply to chasingbliss)
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RE: how to turn a dominant man into a Dominant man - 11/26/2010 12:11:25 PM   
Twoshoes


Posts: 1218
Joined: 7/27/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chasingbliss
Thanks for the advice. I suppose its something I need to wait for the right moment to discuss, though it needs to be sooner than later. Last we spoke he said a woman tied up would not appeal to him...like it would bore him. Yet he's not tried any of this. Personally, I'm not sure this relationship is the right one without bdsm.


That may be true. Ultimately, being a controlling jerk is about projecting your will/expectations onto another person in a selfish manner, because you enjoy that power. Normal guys would much rather experience reactions the person naturally has—expressions of their partners "self", because the projection of their "self" is boring to them. Tying you up may feel to him like you tying him up: boring, uneventful, detracting from the interaction by taking some of "you" away from it.

quote:


What is so difficult is the fact so much else between us is good. I'm depressed at the thought of his not enjoying s&m being what ends us:(


Anyway, last week, I wasn't happy about all the vanilla women that I'm compatible with in every single other way aren't right for me too, so I know where you're coming from. Sucks for you, but I think he's ultimately better off not being messed up, since the majority of people in this world are happily vanilla.

(in reply to chasingbliss)
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RE: how to turn a dominant man into a Dominant man - 11/26/2010 12:21:50 PM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chasingbliss

Thanks for the advice. I suppose its something I need to wait for the right moment to discuss, though it needs to be sooner than later. Last we spoke he said a woman tied up would not appeal to him...like it would bore him. Yet he's not tried any of this. Personally, I'm not sure this relationship is the right one without bdsm. What is so difficult is the fact so much else between us is good. I'm depressed at the thought of his not enjoying s&m being what ends us:(


That may indeed be depressing if the rest of the relationship is great, but sometimes, the alternative happens, as in my case.

I met someone 13 years ago where I was his first sub (like your guy, I was the first woman to want rough sex, talk about fantasies, etc.) He was a dominant personality who had never been able to convince his girlfriends to try any of this.

Then bingo, he meets me, we had amazing chemistry, I tell him I am into BDSM, he said TEACH ME!!, I did, we had the most awesome BDSM and chemistry, fell madly in love from that, and yet....we had nothing in common and did not and do not, get along for any length of time.

And so it went on for years now. Eventually, his interest in BDSM actually went too far into the sadistic side.

So be careful, make sure you are into the guy he is, rather than the Dom you want him to be.

(in reply to chasingbliss)
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RE: how to turn a dominant man into a Dominant man - 11/26/2010 12:35:55 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		Well... basically you are describing me... or at least the me of a few years ago. From reading your post, I'm still not a Dominant (capital "D", I love that ~laughs~) though because I gather that what you mean by that is "top". Still though, I had to cover a fair amount of ground to get to where I am now. Here's how it worked for us...

a) How do I approach him and let him know my needs?
We'd run into this all online (Secondlife), then she presented the idea of collaring her.
For us, this was not an awkward conversation filled with recriminations about my lack of performance in some way. IF it would be for you two, then you're probably doomed from the beginning. I mean... seriously... this is a fairly basic sort of conversation and if the two of you cannot even say, "How about we discuss our sex life" then I can't even begin to guess how you're going to manage any sort of BDSM. In case you hadn't noticed, the phrase communication is key comes up here all the time. We don't all say that just because we have nothing else to say.

For us, Carol said "how about you collar me and I'm your bottom" (she used the phrase "sex slave"). I said, "I have no interest in a sex slave... how about a 24/7 for TPE slave?" She thought about it and said, "OK." I was immediately skeptical and said, "OK, you go buy a collar IN A REAL STORE and bring it to me and I'll collar you." Honestly, I didn't think she'd do it. Imagine my surprise when we were having her birthday dinner a few weeks later and she had a gift from herself to herself *laughs*. It was a $16.95 dog collar from Petco. We still laugh about her trying to discretely figure out what size dog she was standing there in the pet store.

b) and I feel like he may be afraid to hurt me...
Really? Gee... go figure. A perfectly reasonable fear don't you think seeing as you are asking him to hurt you. Carol and I experimented with SM and, it turns out, it doesn't really do anything for me. Predictably, it does something for her... both sides. Even though it turned out to be a dud for us (mostly), I still had to face those same fears. The bottom line? Yet MORE communication along with taking things slow. I can tell you one of the most memorable moments for me and it may help your partner.

I was at a MAST meeting and my poor vanilla sensibilities were absolutely SHOCKED when it came to the need for tarps to control blood spatter.... blood spatter!!!!! Say WHAT! As I sat there and thought about it more I considered all the entirely voluntary ways that MY blood spattered fairly regularly and nobody, including me, thought a thing of it. For instance, I'm a bit of a daredevil so me and roller blades pretty much equals road rash. As I considered a select few times I'd come home assuredly with more damage and more blood lose both than what we were talking about at that MAST meeting (and almost assuredly more pain too seeing as road rash is just plain grinding off layers of body) I had to rethink my position on a bloody whipping. If it's OK for me to go hurt myself for my own entertainment roller blading, why would it not be ok during sex?

It also certainly cant' be the blood loss itself. ONly a few days ago I'd gone to the doctor and they'd taken a few vials of blood for some testing. I had to stop and consider what the room would've looked like if I'd uncapped those three vials and flung them about. Again.... probably a lot more blood spatter than the whipping we're talking about at that MAST meeting and again, other than the grossness of flinging my blood about in a doctor's office, nobody would think voluntarily losing the blood was particularly "edgy".

So perhaps to sum it up, what I'd say is that you need to seriously work on your communication channels first. You'll need that anyway. Then what I'd say is with a lot of communication and a lot of going slowly and a lot of really thinking about all the other perfectly normal, perfectly acceptable ways that we hurt ourselves for fun... well.. the bottom line is that all this "edge play" that BDSM'ers talk about honestly isn't very edgy at all. I do lots of things that are both more risky from a life & limb standpoint and result in more pain/harm/whatever. I would venture to guess that the same is true for lots of folks. Certianly most anyone who even half-seriously engages in sports.

Honestly, while I get how it is that the whole "edgy" thing is all hawt and whatnot and can really serve to spice things up... it really isn't so far out of the spread of normal, every day human behavior as one might think. Careful thought on your part REALLY looking at the things done regularly in the vanilla world will turn up the same answer. And, particularly in the beginning, using all sorts of dark and dangerous and edgy mental models really is counter-productive. Looking at how it's normal and vanilla is what you need in order to help him build a bridge from here to there.

Like I said, if I'd rip off half my back roller blading, it's really hard to say why I wouldn't crop Carol's ass if she wanted me to. Have him ponder that.

c) He is a good man. I feel it's critical to approach this the correct way.
Good. Me too. And, in my opinion, the correct way is as a loving team who find each other safe, comfortable, and easy to talk to... two people who are exploring human sexuality together... and what a freakin wonderful thing to explore!





_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to chasingbliss)
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RE: how to turn a dominant man into a Dominant man - 11/26/2010 1:11:26 PM   
chasingbliss


Posts: 13
Joined: 11/26/2010
Status: offline 		Jeff, I really appreciate your response. Where you & Carol living together when this change in your relationship occurred? How long were you together before the change?

I agree communication is important. It is "key." When I first explained how bdsm affects me, how it makes me closer to someone than otherwise possible he was very interested yet nothin has begun...perhaps a talk & trip to the porn store are in order. Just to begin to test the waters...we definitely need a beginning. I just don't need pain, I need restraint. I hope the opportunity arrises. It hurts to have this need and want only him to fulfill it yet feel so unsure of where to begin.


(in reply to leadership527)
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RE: how to turn a dominant man into a Dominant man - 11/26/2010 1:40:15 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		OK... so please remember that while there are similarities here, he's him and I'm me :)

That being said... We were married for 12 years when the collaring happened.

Insofar as "nothing has begun", I'm afraid that it's likely he's got about 2 billion stoppers in the way (and try to remember how ABSOLUTELY FREAKIN LUCKY you are.... GOOD men are the kinds of men who have these stoppers. Consider what it would mean to say that the guy your with was not exposed to BDSM but had no compunctions about hitting a woman). It's probably true that he's not actively saying "I won't"... but it's also probably true that it's really, really easy for "good reasons" to come up not to do it tonight.

For me, I'd avoid the BDSM porn. Personally I think that's exactly the wrong direction. You need to start out with stuff that is easily accessible from the vanilla side... you wanna be tied up? Fine... that's what silk scarves are for... no need to get a St. Andrews Cross and 200' of welded steel chain right off the bat, eh? You wanna be be hit... that's what soft floggers are for. It helped me a lot when I was at Merc n Beth's and someone handed me a flogger so soft that I was told I absolutely COULD NOT hit them too hard with it. First, I had them try to hit me too hard... no dice. Then I tried to do the same with her... again no dice. Wow, how comforting to know that at least with this implement, it just really wasn't possible to get in trouble too badly. If we'd gone down the SM path, there's always time for meat hooks through breasts at some later date *laughs* In the beginning, that doe skin flogger was the trick. Interestingly, SimplyMicheal gave me a different but almost as soft flogger to take home with us and it still gets use to this day.. more as a sensation device than any hardcore pain... but in the right mood...

Still though, what YOU need to do in the beginning is make this all vanilla, normal, and agreeable.... not weird, freaky, and alternative. How about bind just your hands.. loosely... with some pretty silk scarves... making tender love to you (not brutally taking you). I mean seriously, you'd have to be pretty freakin vanilla to shun that. And, with the appropriately encouraging signals from you... well... us guys like a hot, squirmy girl... I find that HIGHLY MOTIVATING myself :)

Where you begin is in love and togetherness and with the two of you. Why not skip the porn store and tonight, put on something casually sexy, pop a bottle of wine, sit his ass down somewhere with nice ambiance and start out by looking him right in the eye, smiling and saying, "I love you. Let's have some fun tonight." Really, it isn't any more complicated than that. If he's a bit skittish, expect that. Totally dominant people are prudently skittish when they find themselves in unfamiliar and potentially threatening situations... I think of that as prudence, not a lack of interest, dominance, or anything else.

I hope some of that helps.

~Jeff

edited to add:
Regarding him being bored by a tied up woman, I can sympathize. I'm bored with both bondage and sadism. But what I am NOT bored with is a hot, wriggling Carol who's so out of her mind with lust that she begs for my cock. Somehow, I find that very not-boring.. Obviously I have a fetish around "chicks who're crazy for my cock"... I'm guessing most men do. He doesn't need to directly love tying you up (although there is such a thing as an acquired taste). He just needs to not reject it and then feed of of the indirect pleasure.

< Message edited by leadership527 -- 11/26/2010 1:49:45 PM >

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to chasingbliss)
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RE: how to turn a dominant man into a Dominant man - 11/26/2010 2:16:31 PM   
chasingbliss


Posts: 13
Joined: 11/26/2010
Status: offline 		Again, Jeff, many thank yous. He is a good man and I know that's a rarity. I started this thread with the doom feeling but now feel hopeful for the future. I will keep positive and have faith.:-)

(in reply to leadership527)
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RE: how to turn a dominant man into a Dominant man - 11/26/2010 3:00:18 PM   
ricken


Posts: 261
Joined: 1/11/2010
Status: offline 		Yup, what Jeff said....

I find tied up girls boring too....I like it when they fight back

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

.... And, with the appropriately encouraging signals from you... well... us guys like a hot, squirmy girl... I find that HIGHLY MOTIVATING myself :).....

edited to add:
... Obviously I have a fetish around "chicks who're crazy for my cock"... I'm guessing most men do. ...

(in reply to leadership527)
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RE: how to turn a dominant man into a Dominant man - 11/26/2010 3:12:19 PM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chasingbliss

i want this to be more.

But does he? You cannot force someone to be other than they are... if you do, in the end, they'll most likely go back to their "regular" self and the situation won't be any better and will probably be worse.

quote:

My question to you all is this: how do I approach him and let him know my needs, the importance of this to me without sounding whiney, without making him feel like he isn't good enough or lacking? He knows I have these needs, we discussed them in the beginning of the relationship but at that time he didn't want to jump right into it, said he had ideas but time has passed and I feel like he may be afraid to hurt me, afraid he will lose me if he does these things because I am looking distressed when bound and beaten. He is a good man. I feel it's critical to approach this the correct way.

Ask him if he's likes what you've done so far. Ask him if he has fantasies of other things. Ask him if he approves of "steppin' it up a notch". Most of all, ask him if he wants to do it because HE likes it. If all things are positive, ask him if he would like some resources to learn from or if he'd rather learn from you.

But, if he doesn't, trying to change him isn't fair... or likely to happen.

Master Fire


_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to chasingbliss)
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RE: how to turn a dominant man into a Dominant man - 11/26/2010 5:24:44 PM   
allnewtome


Posts: 73
Joined: 9/23/2010
Status: offline 		I remember the first time I got my ex to tie me up. He lasted like 2 minutes and had to untie me. Said he couldn't bear to see me like that. Was long before he enjoyed it almost as much as I did  Once he got over the initial hurdle it just took off from there, it did take a long time though. Maybe he just needs reassured that you would safeword if/when needed.

Not saying your man will be the same. If he really isn't into it then there is nothing you can do about it.

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)
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RE: how to turn a dominant man into a Dominant man - 11/26/2010 6:47:18 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		You want him to start in by whipping you, by putting you in distress. That's like throwing someone who has never been on a horse onto an unbroken stallion and being disappointed when they fall off and don't want to get back on.

No porn, no porn store. You want to curb your impatience and link giving small amounts of pain to sexual excitement for you. Which means come out naked, drape yourself over his knee and ask for a spanking. Expect it to not even redden the skin. And then demand sex. You want to follow that up by whispering to him, texting him, emailing him, calling him frequently over the next week to tell him how hot that made you, how you can't stop thinking about it and could he please do it again real soon but harder and longer. You'll probably still have to initiate it a lot. And continue like this for about six months. Once he isn't afraid of harming you with a hand spanking, then ask him to use a hairbrush or his belt. And slide to your knees after he's done and beg to give him a blow job.

He's a good guy who has spent decades learning never to hit a girl. It will take more than one conversation and one attempt before he's capable of doing this at your level.


_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to allnewtome)
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RE: how to turn a dominant man into a Dominant man - 11/26/2010 6:56:20 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		yeah! that! What Des said.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: how to turn a dominant man into a Dominant man - 11/27/2010 1:08:40 AM   
DMFParadox


Posts: 1405
Joined: 9/11/2007
Status: offline 		Everything leadership said, plus one thing. Help remove some of his blocks by taking steps to make him comfortable with his own safety. Tying a girl up to have sex with her is illegal; but tying her up to do edge play without sex is often permissible. So ask him to set things up so that the bondage, S&M, and head play all happen beforehand; and let him know that he's basically turning you into a sex-starved, willing and pliant slave to his desires, for when the cuffs come off. In other words, as long as you do S&M then sex in that order, he's in the clear... well, a bit more in the clear than otherwise. If you can think of other ways to arrange things to make sure he wouldn't be chased down by cops, that's good too - such as taking up a sport or hobby that can explain the colorful remembrances.

I hate to suggest you Pavlov him, but pavlov him. If he starts associating you under his whip as a prelude to you the obedient sex slave, then he'll most likely start getting into it quite a bit; and it might also free him to experience that *need* to control that Focus mentioned.


_____________________________

bloody hell, get me some aspirin and a whiskey straight

"The role of gender in society is the most complicated thing I’ve ever spent a lot of time learning about, and I’ve spent a lot of time learning about quantum mechanics." - Randall Munroe

(in reply to leadership527)
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RE: how to turn a dominant man into a Dominant man - 11/27/2010 1:54:24 AM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ricken

Yup, what Jeff said....

I find tied up girls boring too....I like it when they fight back


Just to offer an alternative view (to the OP), this Dom absolutely does NOT find restrained girls boring in the least.

The thing is, I don't regard bondage as kink but a physical expression of my will and control over her. Bondage is about rendering her helpless and totally dependent on my whim or mood. In a D/s relationship founded on an unequal control dynamic, there absolutely is NOTHING boring about a girl being controlled via physical restraints; not to me!

OP are you looking for an alround control dynamic (including rules and physical acts of control etc) or just some rough handling? Most vanillas will indulge in bondage to spice up sex etc, ie a means to an end, but not for bondage sake (restrained = controlled) - that's *sick* (to them; not me).

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to ricken)
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RE: how to turn a dominant man into a Dominant man - 11/27/2010 5:43:11 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		There are other reasons guys like to tie up girls. The Man views my body as his canvas, and rope as an artistic expression. Plus of course, the whole begging to be sexually used thing is exciting. But I don't think he views it as purely a physical expression of the control he has over me.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to Focus50)
Profile   Post #: 20
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